After a school massacre, the U.K. banned handguns in 1998. A decade later, handgun crime had doubled.

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    Dec 28, 2012 12:45 AM GMT
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323777204578195470446855466.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop
  • KissTheSky

    Posts: 1981

    Dec 28, 2012 1:08 AM GMT
    More misleading conservative claptrap from the WSJournal. Why am I not surprised? According to this article, the UK has experienced a mass shooting about once a decade. Here in the U.S. we have them every week or two.

    The simple fact is the US has forty times the number of gun murder victims as the UK, for the simple reason that almost no one has access to guns in the UK.
    We should only be so lucky to have their gun "problem."

    BTW, the UK has basically the same movies, music, and video games that people in the US do, yet they have a tiny fraction of the gun murders. So much for the latest conservative talking points on why guns have no connection with gun violence. icon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gif


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    Dec 28, 2012 1:55 AM GMT
    KissTheSky saidMore misleading conservative claptrap from the WSJournal. Why am I not surprised? According to this article, the UK has experienced a mass shooting about once a decade. Here in the U.S. we have them every week or two.

    The simple fact is the US has forty times the number of gun murder victims as the UK, for the simple reason that almost no one has access to guns in the UK.
    We should only be so lucky to have their gun "problem."

    BTW, the UK has basically the same movies, music, and video games that people in the US do, yet they have a tiny fraction of the gun murders. So much for the latest conservative talking points on why guns have no connection with gun violence. icon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gif




    How is it misleading? You're right - gun violence is a lot more prevalent in the US - but the relationship between gun ownership and crime across different countries is tenuous at best. This suggests that it has a lot more to do than just access.

    Now on the question of bans however, you see the level of gun violence climb every country where they institute bans - but that's because the people who commit crime aren't restricted by some laws on the books. So no, not misleading, in fact highly relevant - especially if the goal is to reduce gun violence.
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    Dec 28, 2012 2:52 AM GMT
    The quoted article is a joke (Perhaps 'Joker' would be more apt than 'Riddler'):

    "Strict gun laws in Great Britain and Australia haven't made their people noticeably safer, nor have they prevented massacres."

    The statistics say otherwise:

    Firearm-Related Death Rates Per 100,000 population

    US 10.2

    Australia 1.05

    UK 0.25

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    Dec 28, 2012 2:54 AM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidThe quoted article is a joke (Perhaps 'Joker' would be more apt than 'Riddler'):

    "Strict gun laws in Great Britain and Australia haven't made their people noticeably safer, nor have they prevented massacres."

    The statistics say otherwise:

    Firearm-Related Death Rates Per 100,000 population

    US 10.2

    Australia 1.05

    UK 0.25



    And yet, after gun control gun violence rose in the UK. That meets your definition of "safer"?
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    Dec 28, 2012 2:58 AM GMT
    riddler78 said

    And yet, after gun control gun violence rose in the UK. That meets your definition of "safer"?


    Not being dead is generally safer than the alternative.
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    Dec 28, 2012 3:02 AM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 said
    riddler78 said

    And yet, after gun control gun violence rose in the UK. That meets your definition of "safer"?


    Not being dead is generally safer than the alternative.


    You're right and more are dead as a result of the ban. Glad you feel safer though.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Dec 28, 2012 3:31 AM GMT
    a outright ban is just not possible unless the constitution is amended.

    We should work to limit clip sizes to first.
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    Dec 28, 2012 5:05 AM GMT
    riddler78 said

    You're right and more are dead as a result of the ban. Glad you feel safer though.


    You clearly misunderstand the significance of the 1997 Act. It was an enhancement to already strict gun control laws. Unlike the US, UK law has never (in recent history) allowed easy access to firearms. To argue that gun control in countries like Australia, Japan and the UK does not work, when comparisons with the US so glaringly demonstrate that it does, is absurd. Statistically, someone in the US has a 4000% higher chance of being killed by a firearm than someone in the UK. I know where I feel safer.
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    Dec 28, 2012 5:24 AM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 said
    riddler78 said

    You're right and more are dead as a result of the ban. Glad you feel safer though.


    You clearly misunderstand the significance of the 1998 Act. It was an enhancement to already strict gun control laws. Unlike the US, UK law has never (in recent history) allowed easy access to firearms. To argue that gun control in countries like Australia, Japan and the UK does not work, when comparisons with the US so glaringly demonstrate that it does, is absurd. Statistically, someone in the US has a 4000% higher chance of being killed by a firearm than someone in the UK. I know where I feel safer.


    And yet that "enhancement" led to more gun deaths in the UK while US gun related violence has been falling. So glad for you.
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    Dec 28, 2012 6:07 AM GMT
    riddler78 said

    And yet that "enhancement" led to more gun deaths in the UK while US gun related violence has been falling. So glad for you.


    Actually, gun related violence in the UK is falling too.
    figure6_tcm77-283291.png
    Source: Home Office
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    Dec 28, 2012 6:20 AM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 said
    riddler78 said

    And yet that "enhancement" led to more gun deaths in the UK while US gun related violence has been falling. So glad for you.


    Actually, gun related violence is falling in the UK too.
    figure6_tcm77-283291.png
    Source: Home Office


    There is something really off about your chart. First being that year ended 2012 hasn't happened yet unless the year end is something other than December 31 (maybe it's April)? And for 2011 here's the data from the home office:

    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/hosb0212?view=Binary

    Apr 2010 to Mar 2011 - 11,227 recorded offences involving firearms (including air guns)

    That said - the report also shows gun violence on the decline in general - but so does the US which kind of goes back to the question of what is the effectiveness of bans if we would see even more violence initially and if gun related violence is already on the decline?
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    Dec 28, 2012 7:36 AM GMT
    The chart is not mine. It is the Home Office's. Regardless, the trend is still downwards.

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/period-ending-june-2012/stb-crime-in-england-and-wales--year-ending-june-2012.html#tab-Offences-involving-firearms

    The fact remains that those countries in which the law severely restricts access to firearms report significantly fewer gun-related deaths than those countries in which access to guns is made relatively easy. The differences are not subtle. It is 0.25 gun-related deaths per 100k in the UK versus 10.2 in the US.
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    Dec 28, 2012 8:09 AM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidThe chart is not mine. It is the Home Office's. Regardless, the trend is still downwards.

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/period-ending-june-2012/stb-crime-in-england-and-wales--year-ending-june-2012.html#tab-Offences-involving-firearms

    The fact remains that those countries in which the law severely restricts access to firearms report significantly fewer gun-related deaths than those countries in which access to guns is made relatively easy. The differences are not subtle. It is 0.25 gun-related deaths per 100k in the UK versus 10.2 in the US.


    While some countries that restrict access to firearms have fewer gun related deaths, does not necessarily follow that these countries have been able to do so by said restrictions - given that in many cases even before restrictions the level of gun violence was already considerably lower vs the US. The US has always had higher gun related violence and the data suggests there is little relationship between gun ownership and gun violence in other countries. This suggests that there's something else - likely culture. Add to this, what we do know is that after restrictions are passed, in every case, gun related violence goes up.

    Which is to say, if the question is how do we ensure fewer tragedies like the one in Newton or gun violence in general? The answer may not be gun control - but rather there are other issues to address from culture to ending the horrifyingly useless war on drugs. It is also important not to forget the context - that the amount of gun related violence has been dropping for some time already without restrictions (which some sociologists attribute to incarceration rates and demographics)
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Dec 28, 2012 7:41 PM GMT
    Wow ..... Like Holy Sh*t Wow icon_eek.gif

    Like there is NO way in this God's good green Earth that you can stand there
    Where ever you are Rid and state that gun crime in ANY other industrialized country comes ANY WHERE NEAR what it is in the US

    You can try and jumble the numbers and look at them sideways and upside down and with sunglasses on but your still gonna come up with the fact that the United States has TOO MANY F**ken Guns
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    Dec 29, 2012 12:35 AM GMT
    GQjock saidWow ..... Like Holy Sh*t Wow icon_eek.gif

    Like there is NO way in this God's good green Earth that you can stand there
    Where ever you are Rid and state that gun crime in ANY other industrialized country comes ANY WHERE NEAR what it is in the US

    You can try and jumble the numbers and look at them sideways and upside down and with sunglasses on but your still gonna come up with the fact that the United States has TOO MANY F**ken Guns


    You say that the US has too many guns. Is it then your argument then that fewer guns would result in less violence? If so how would you achieve that?

    How have bans worked out elsewhere they've been tried and are those experiences comparable to the situation in the US?
  • seafrontbloke

    Posts: 300

    Dec 30, 2012 4:47 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Ex_Mil8 said
    riddler78 said

    And yet that "enhancement" led to more gun deaths in the UK while US gun related violence has been falling. So glad for you.


    Actually, gun related violence is falling in the UK too.
    figure6_tcm77-283291.png
    Source: Home Office


    There is something really off about your chart. First being that year ended 2012 hasn't happened yet unless the year end is something other than December 31 (maybe it's April)? And for 2011 here's the data from the home office:

    http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/hosb0212?view=Binary

    Apr 2010 to Mar 2011 - 11,227 recorded offences involving firearms (including air guns)

    That said - the report also shows gun violence on the decline in general - but so does the US which kind of goes back to the question of what is the effectiveness of bans if we would see even more violence initially and if gun related violence is already on the decline?


    The year ended Jun 12 was about 6 months ago ...

    http://bit.ly/W9klNQ

    You might find this paper interesting - it breaks down gun crime statistics. The last page gives a breakdown by area too - unsurprisingly most crimes occur in either London or Manchester.

    I live in Brighton, Sussex, where the crimes (not injuries/fatalities) per 100K population rate is 3.1 - guns never ever cross my conscious thought.
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    Dec 30, 2012 4:54 PM GMT
    GQjock saidWow ..... Like Holy Sh*t Wow icon_eek.gif

    Like there is NO way in this God's good green Earth that you can stand there
    Where ever you are Rid and state that gun crime in ANY other industrialized country comes ANY WHERE NEAR what it is in the US

    You can try and jumble the numbers and look at them sideways and upside down and with sunglasses on but your still gonna come up with the fact that the United States has TOO MANY F**ken Guns


    lol, I suspect Riddie has shares in gun manufacturing companies, or is offshoring gun manufacturing jobs.icon_lol.gif.
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    Dec 30, 2012 8:56 PM GMT
    seafrontbloke said

    I live in Brighton, Sussex, where the crimes (not injuries/fatalities) per 100K population rate is 3.1 - guns never ever cross my conscious thought.


    I live in North Cornwall, where the overall crime rate is 0.48 per 100k population. Any crime is a rarity and gun crime is like something from another planet. That said, it is probably the same for most rural areas, even in the US.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Dec 30, 2012 9:13 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    GQjock saidWow ..... Like Holy Sh*t Wow icon_eek.gif

    Like there is NO way in this God's good green Earth that you can stand there
    Where ever you are Rid and state that gun crime in ANY other industrialized country comes ANY WHERE NEAR what it is in the US

    You can try and jumble the numbers and look at them sideways and upside down and with sunglasses on but your still gonna come up with the fact that the United States has TOO MANY F**ken Guns


    You say that the US has too many guns. Is it then your argument then that fewer guns would result in less violence? If so how would you achieve that?

    How have bans worked out elsewhere they've been tried and are those experiences comparable to the situation in the US?


    We do NOT need weapons that can fire over 100 rounds with a SIMPLE PULL OF THE FINGER with NO background checks
    That's where we START