A couple of questions about supplements for someone new to weight training....

  • MarvelBoy23

    Posts: 279

    Jan 21, 2013 8:04 PM GMT
    I'm trying to maximize muscle gain and weight loss. I recently started lifting, which is new territory for me. I've started a daily vitamin regime and purchased a couple of products that I'm curious about. AMP: Amplified Wheybolic Extreme 60 from GNC for an after workout protein shake as well as Cellucor CLK.

    Can anyone give me any insight to these products? I hate wasting money more than anything, but I don't mind shelling it out if the products are worth it in combination with my current daily routine.

    A basic simple rundown of my day:

    645 am. Make a fresh juice daily consisting of 5 carrots, 3 stalks celery 1/2 beet, 1/2 lemon and fresh parsley.

    830 am. 1 package of Abundance instant oatmeal with flax seed.

    12pm either a salad, bowl of vegetable soup or lean chicken with green vegetables.

    230/3pm a piece of fruit (usually an apple or nectarine)

    430 pm a banana

    5 pm workout (45 minutes weight train & 45 min - 1 hour cardio run 4 to 5 miles)

    730 pm lean chicken with vegetables and wheat pasta

    930 pm couples slices of pickles or a yogurt.

    Any suggestions are welcomed, like I said I'm trying to maximize weight loss while building muscle.

    thanks
    Nicholas~

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    Jan 21, 2013 10:33 PM GMT
    Cut the carbs - swap veggies for that fruit, skip the pasta (for now, add it back in when you're at your body comp goals).

    Eat more fat. Nuts, healthy oils, etc.

    Do CrossFit with an experienced coach.

    Get plenty of rest.

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    Jan 21, 2013 11:03 PM GMT
    For someone new to weight lifting, my best advice is to go 100% natural to find out how your body is going to respond. Then introduce supplements when you hit your first plateau.

    Starting out with supplements is a surefire way to overtrain and burn out quickly.
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    Jan 21, 2013 11:07 PM GMT
    Go get the USDA Food Calculator. Look at the calories you're eating. Compute your lean body mass, and compute your daily caloric requirement. What you'll find is that you aren't eating enough.

    I have around 183 pounds of muscle on me right now. That's means I need to eat about 3660 calories a day just to maintain. Another 600 for the workout (every hour), and another 600 a day to gain.

    About 1.25 to 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight is where you should be...

    Your diet, is, to be honest, laughable.

    Count up your calories (weigh your food, and put the caloric content in a spreadsheet).

    You need carbs to preserve your lean muscle mass, and to provide energy to train. Taking carbs out is bad advice.

    You need small meals often with carbs, protein, and good fats (yes, fats, poly and mono) about 6 times a day.

    You don't need a hour cardio. Do 20 minutes of HIIT, instead. Keep the calories up, keep the carbs in; weigh and measure your food so you can quantify you intake (think of it as going to the gas pump).
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    Jan 21, 2013 11:10 PM GMT
    paulflexes saidFor someone new to weight lifting, my best advice is to go 100% natural to find out how your body is going to respond. Then introduce supplements when you hit your first plateau.

    Starting out with supplements is a surefire way to overtrain and burn out quickly.


    Note that whey protein is 100% natural (for the ignorant among us). Whey protein is the protein portion of milk (kinda like skim milk). The fat portion is used to make cheese. Whey used to be discarded, until someone had a brilliant idea that it was good for you.

    Additional protein will help to keep you from over training. If calories are restricted, and there's too much cardio; too much volume, you can over train. Whey protein is not going to do that. DOH.

    Did you even think at all?
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    Jan 21, 2013 11:11 PM GMT
    Diet looks pretty good...

    Except: make sure you have that chicken at lunch meal. You need the protein that just a plain salad or veg soup may not provide.

    Once things stall/plateau, do just what Joey D suggests: swap the fruit with veggies and cut out the pasta/grains. And make sure you get enough good fat.

    To get extra protein after workout, I use the AMP Wheybolic Extreme 60 and really like it. It's a very fast absorbing protein which makes it perfect to take with 30-45 minutes of strength training.
  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Jan 21, 2013 11:12 PM GMT
    chuckystud said
    paulflexes saidFor someone new to weight lifting, my best advice is to go 100% natural to find out how your body is going to respond. Then introduce supplements when you hit your first plateau.

    Starting out with supplements is a surefire way to overtrain and burn out quickly.


    Note that whey protein is 100% natural (for the ignorant among us). Whey protein is the protein portion of milk (kinda like skim milk). The fat portion is used to make cheese. Whey used to be discarded, until someone had a brilliant idea that it was good for you.

    Additional protein will help to keep you from over training. If calories are restricted, and there's too much cardio; too much volume, you can over train. Whey protein is not going to do that. DOH.

    Did you even think at all?


    Actually, cheese is made from coagulated dairy proteins...
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    Jan 21, 2013 11:16 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidGo get the USDA Food Calculator. Look at the calories you're eating. Compute your lean body mass, and compute your daily caloric requirement. What you'll find is that you aren't eating enough.

    I have around 183 pounds of muscle on me right now. That's means I need to eat about 3660 calories a day just to maintain. Another 600 for the workout (every hour), and another 600 a day to gain.

    About 1.25 to 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight is where you should be...

    Your diet, is, to be honest, laughable.

    Count up your calories (weigh your food, and put the caloric content in a spreadsheet).

    You need carbs to preserve your lean muscle mass, and to provide energy to train. Taking carbs out is bad advice.

    You need small meals often with carbs, protein, and good fats (yes, fats, poly and mono) about 6 times a day.

    You don't need a hour cardio. Do 20 minutes of HIIT, instead. Keep the calories up, keep the carbs in; weigh and measure your food so you can quantify you intake (think of it as going to the gas pump).



    Chucky... He's 300 lbs at 6'2' per his profile. He's not a bodybuilder (yet). I think he needs to do more cardio than HIIT at this stage of the game. And yes he needs to cut back the carbs...
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    Jan 21, 2013 11:16 PM GMT
    kt8320 saidDiet looks pretty good...

    Except: make sure you have that chicken at lunch meal. You need the protein that just a plain salad or veg soup may not provide.

    Once things stall/plateau, do just what Joey D suggests: swap the fruit with veggies and cut out the pasta/grains. And make sure you get enough good fat.

    To get extra protein after workout, I use the AMP Wheybolic Extreme 60 and really like it. It's a very fast absorbing protein which makes it perfect to take with 30-45 minutes of strength training.


    Post workout is when you have the golden window, and should invoke the carb push (an insulin response) with about 30 grams of simple carbs; 30 grams to 50 grams of starch, and about 40 to 50 grams of protein, along with good fat (anything from nuts or flax seed..avocado, etc.).

    Poly and mono fats are ESSENTIAL to good cardiovascular health. Carbs are essential to good brain function; recovery; and glucose loading, especially in "The Golden Hour" post workout.

    Slow carbs (starch) will keep you loaded, and will help you do work, at a higher metabolic level, and spare protein (keep you from going catabolic).

    Fast carbs post workout will make you stronger and fuller in your muscle bellies (basically).

    Too few calories will cause famine syndrome / metabolic lag and cause you too LOSE muscle mass, and turn you into a fat storing machine.

    Folks fail at diets because they train that famine response, and..they lack energy, binge, and give up. Calories are essential to proper progress.
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    Jan 21, 2013 11:20 PM GMT
    kt8320 said
    chuckystud saidGo get the USDA Food Calculator. Look at the calories you're eating. Compute your lean body mass, and compute your daily caloric requirement. What you'll find is that you aren't eating enough.

    I have around 183 pounds of muscle on me right now. That's means I need to eat about 3660 calories a day just to maintain. Another 600 for the workout (every hour), and another 600 a day to gain.

    About 1.25 to 1.5 grams of protein per pound of body weight is where you should be...

    Your diet, is, to be honest, laughable.

    Count up your calories (weigh your food, and put the caloric content in a spreadsheet).

    You need carbs to preserve your lean muscle mass, and to provide energy to train. Taking carbs out is bad advice.

    You need small meals often with carbs, protein, and good fats (yes, fats, poly and mono) about 6 times a day.

    You don't need a hour cardio. Do 20 minutes of HIIT, instead. Keep the calories up, keep the carbs in; weigh and measure your food so you can quantify you intake (think of it as going to the gas pump).



    Chucky... He's 300 lbs at 6'2' per his profile. He's not a bodybuilder (yet). I think he needs to do more cardio than HIIT at this stage of the game. And yes he needs to cut back the carbs...


    I didn't see his body weight; I just read his starvation diet.

    HIIT is more effective at fat loss, muscle preservation, and..has the benefit of increasing cardiac threshold as well. The American Heart Association states that your EKG can improve in as few as 7 HIIT sessions, ever, and it's recommended over steady state cardio because all of the reasons above, and it's also low impact (very important for overweight and geriatric folks.) (That given that you have the ability to get your heart rate up.) If you are in poor cardiovascular health, clearly, HIIT may NOT be indicated, although most can do some level, and it's very much more effective at cardiac conditioning that steady state cardio.

    You may wish to visit theheart.org for more.

    Losing fat is about caloric expenditure, and metabolic activation..not starvation, and endless hours of cardio.

    No less than 1/2 gram of carb per pound per day (150 here)
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    Jan 21, 2013 11:43 PM GMT
    Medjai said
    chuckystud said
    paulflexes saidFor someone new to weight lifting, my best advice is to go 100% natural to find out how your body is going to respond. Then introduce supplements when you hit your first plateau.

    Starting out with supplements is a surefire way to overtrain and burn out quickly.


    Note that whey protein is 100% natural (for the ignorant among us). Whey protein is the protein portion of milk (kinda like skim milk). The fat portion is used to make cheese. Whey used to be discarded, until someone had a brilliant idea that it was good for you.

    Additional protein will help to keep you from over training. If calories are restricted, and there's too much cardio; too much volume, you can over train. Whey protein is not going to do that. DOH.

    Did you even think at all?


    Actually, cheese is made from coagulated dairy proteins...


    Yeah, but...it's got all the saturated fats in it.

    Ever been in a cheese factory?

    Rancid is used to curdle the milk. The curds are cut into blocks. The whey is drained off.
  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Jan 21, 2013 11:45 PM GMT
    chuckystud said
    Medjai said
    chuckystud said
    paulflexes saidFor someone new to weight lifting, my best advice is to go 100% natural to find out how your body is going to respond. Then introduce supplements when you hit your first plateau.

    Starting out with supplements is a surefire way to overtrain and burn out quickly.


    Note that whey protein is 100% natural (for the ignorant among us). Whey protein is the protein portion of milk (kinda like skim milk). The fat portion is used to make cheese. Whey used to be discarded, until someone had a brilliant idea that it was good for you.

    Additional protein will help to keep you from over training. If calories are restricted, and there's too much cardio; too much volume, you can over train. Whey protein is not going to do that. DOH.

    Did you even think at all?


    Actually, cheese is made from coagulated dairy proteins...


    Yeah, but...it's got all the saturated fats in it.

    Ever been in a cheese factory?

    Rancid is used to curdle the milk. The curds are cut into blocks. The whey is drained off.


    Rennet, actually. And you can make cheese from skim milk...

    I've made four different types of cheese myself, in my own home. icon_razz.gif
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    Jan 21, 2013 11:47 PM GMT
    I sit corrected.

    I always thought the curdling process was fascinating to watch, but, a bit gross, considering what made it curdle.

    Everyone likes cheese. It generally has everything that is bad for you in it.
  • MarvelBoy23

    Posts: 279

    Jan 22, 2013 3:58 PM GMT
    Thanks to everyone for your responses.

    While I am interested in building lean muscle, I'm not looking to be huge. My main goal of maximizing muscle is for a leaner mass to burn more calories for weight loss. I am a bigger dude, but I do already have quite a bit of muscle and a very large frame. My legs are like beasts already from running and some weight activity.

    The one thing here that gets me are calories... I eat until I'm full, I don't ever feel like I'm starving myself. In fact, sometimes I even have to force myself to eat because I'm still not hungry. I've been running (again) now for 2 months and I'm seeing the results finally. My belly is flattening and I'm losing my love handles, my face has slimmed down quite a bit.

    As far as the wheat pasta, I actually only do that about 3 nights a week, the other nights I just load up on the lean chicken and veggies (usually broccoli and red peppers)

    My lifting thus far consists of higher reps with a lower weight class. Should I possibly change that to less reps more weight until I build the muscle and then tone? Please forgive my ignorance, like I said, new to this aspect entirely.

    Very glad to have found a resource for questions like this! Thanks again guys for responding, it's much appreciated.

    And who doesn't love cheese, but I've cut it almost entirely from my daily diet as I am also trying to naturally lower my cholesterol!
  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Jan 22, 2013 4:29 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidI sit corrected.

    I always thought the curdling process was fascinating to watch, but, a bit gross, considering what made it curdle.

    Everyone likes cheese. It generally has everything that is bad for you in it.


    It is the one vice I've maintained since going dairy free. I just can't shake it...

    As for lowering dietary cholesterol, that's a very minor contributor. Only 10% of your cholesterol is dietary sourced. If you want to lower it, reduce saturated and trans fats, as they stimulate bodily production, especially of LDL cholesterol.

    OP, try other types of pasta for dinner. I love quinoa pasta, but rice and buckwheat are also good.

    Don't drop carbs. A lot of people here will tell you to, as they support a ketonic diet, and its pretty popular with Paleo too. As a nutrition student, I'll speak against that for a beginner diet, as I don't consider it sustainable. I'm not the only person in the field with this view either.

    If you have any food questions, feel free to email me. If I don't know, I can direct you to someone who does. As for supplements, it's not my area of expertise. I use whey myself, as well as glutamine for recovery and a caffeine based, creatine free booster before my workout. Nothing fancy.
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    Jan 22, 2013 4:40 PM GMT
    MarvelBoy23 said

    And who doesn't love cheese, but I've cut it almost entirely from my daily diet as I am also trying to naturally lower my cholesterol!


    I wasn't going to weigh in, until this.

    For many of us who have lipid disorders, the standard "healthy" carbs, low fat advice is way off the mark. Some folks' lipid profiles will improve on a low fat diet, but many won't. For many people, carbs basically turn the liver into a factory for small dense LDL.

    There's a lot of controversy about what diet is the most heart healthy now. In my opinion, that's probably because there is no single diet that is right for everyone due to our genetic differences.

    At the moment I'm on a ketogenic diet - less than 50 grams of carbs per day, plenty of "good" fats (avocados, fatty fish, olive oil, nuts, etc.) and vegetables, but I'm also not making any effort to get rid of saturated fats. I'm going in for another lipoprofile test in another month or two and we'll see if it's working for me.

    To Chucky, I would say that we don't NEED carbs. Once one is keto-adapted fats do just fine. The adaptation process takes a while, but once you're there, you don't really miss them.

    Medjai said
    As for lowering dietary cholesterol, that's a very minor contributor. Only 10% of your cholesterol is dietary sourced. If you want to lower it, reduce saturated and trans fats, as they stimulate bodily production, especially of LDL cholesterol....

    Don't drop carbs. A lot of people here will tell you to, as they support a ketonic diet, and its pretty popular with Paleo too. As a nutrition student, I'll speak against that for a beginner diet, as I don't consider it sustainable. I'm not the only person in the field with this view either.


    A lot of controversy about this. Medjai is espousing the more traditional view, and probably the prevailing one.
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    Jan 22, 2013 4:58 PM GMT
    Your diet is very healthy, but you don't' have enough calories or protein.

    If you want to build muscle, the generally accepted idea is that you have to eat more calories than you burn. There are several ways for figuring that out... You want to figure out your lean body mass, and your bodyfat.

    I usually do LBM x 1.5-2g of protein.

    As for supplements.. stay away from GNC. They overprice everything and its pretty much shit.

    You can find anything there much cheaper on Amazon or bodybuilding.com

    I personally like Gold Standard Protein Whey. I think its pretty popular too.
  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Jan 22, 2013 5:13 PM GMT
    showme said
    A lot of controversy about this. Medjai is espousing the more traditional view, and probably the prevailing one.


    There just isn't enough evidence besides isolated anecdote to support its long term safety and sustainability. Diet is much more multifaceted than simply lipo profiles. Ketogenic diets concern me because of the systemic stress. While it may work, it's not how its designed to work long term, at least based on what we know now.

    I am open to proof to support your view, I just don't think it exists yet.
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    Jan 22, 2013 5:23 PM GMT
    Medjai said
    showme said

    A lot of controversy about this. Medjai is espousing the more traditional view, and probably the prevailing one.


    There just isn't enough evidence besides isolated anecdote to support its long term safety and sustainability. Diet is much more multifaceted than simply lipo profiles. Ketogenic diets concern me because of the systemic stress. While it may work, it's not how its designed to work long term, at least based on what we know now.

    I am open to proof to support your view, I just don't think it exists yet.


    When you say that's not "how its designed to work long term, at least based on what we know now," I'm not sure what you base that on either. It is clear that the body is very good at switching from reliance on carbs/glucose to fats/keto. Why does only one have to be the way it was "designed to work"?

    I am not a scientist and don't pretend to be, so take what I say with the appropriate multiple grains of salt. But Drs. Volek and Phinney make some convincing arguments, with citations to research and all that shit.

    51OSaAmDQJL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-stic

    One of the most interesting points they make is that many of the studies purporting to demonstrate that ketogenic diets are bad for us either don't reduce the carbs to a level where the body is really keto-adapted, or haven't been of a sufficient duration to allow the subjects to become fully keto-adapted.

    I'm not espousing anything in particular other than that there are multiple ways to skin a cat, and that folks should educate themselves and do what is best for them. Personally, I won't stay on a keto diet if it ultimately doesn't help with my sky-high LDL-P.
  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Jan 22, 2013 5:34 PM GMT
    I'll look into it. However, I generally prefer journal articles as sources, not books written to further an agenda. It's the main issue I have with the Paleo Diet. While I don't see it as completely wrong, as soon as you need to buy something to look into it, it's financial support.

    I'd rather read his sources and draw my own conclusions without buying the book, to be honest. Primary literature is more credible anyways.
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    Jan 22, 2013 5:40 PM GMT
    Medjai saidI'll look into it. However, I generally prefer journal articles as sources, not books written to further an agenda. It's the main issue I have with the Paleo Diet. While I don't see it as completely wrong, as soon as you need to buy something to look into it, it's financial support.

    I'd rather read his sources and draw my own conclusions without buying the book, to be honest. Primary literature is more credible anyways.


    If I were a scientist and had access to the primary sources, I'd agree with you. But I'm not, so I make do.

    I agree somewhat about paleo. I'm not sure we know what the paleolithic man ate (or even if it was remotely the same for different individuals in different locations) but I bet it wasn't the unlimited piles of corn-fed rib-eye steak and bacon that some of the "ancestral foods" gurus espouse. icon_biggrin.gif
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    Jan 23, 2013 3:18 AM GMT
    chuckystud said
    paulflexes saidFor someone new to weight lifting, my best advice is to go 100% natural to find out how your body is going to respond. Then introduce supplements when you hit your first plateau.

    Starting out with supplements is a surefire way to overtrain and burn out quickly.


    Note that whey protein is 100% natural (for the ignorant among us). Whey protein is the protein portion of milk (kinda like skim milk). The fat portion is used to make cheese. Whey used to be discarded, until someone had a brilliant idea that it was good for you.

    Additional protein will help to keep you from over training. If calories are restricted, and there's too much cardio; too much volume, you can over train. Whey protein is not going to do that. DOH.

    Did you even think at all?
    Whey protein is processed crap made from almost everything BUT milk.

    Read the ingredients. icon_wink.gif