Constitutionally valid, ethically despicable

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    Sep 28, 2008 8:41 PM GMT
    I read the comments of all these pro-Bush, pro-McCain, pro-Republican gays here. And I ask myself, have these guys no decency, no sense of reality?

    Our US constitution clearly grants the right of free speech (even though Republican efforts to limit that right are egregious, that's a matter for another thread). And so RJ members cannot be criticized for exercising that right, that I think we would gladly extend that to our non-US members, as well.

    What puzzles and offends me, however, is when gays attack gay interests, and their fellow gays who are affected. What's that all about?

    In the past, women championed women's rights, not the status quo of a comfortable pedestal as devised by men.

    Blacks championed black rights, not the safe but demeaning niche that whites permitted them.

    Yet some gays seem happy to embrace permanent second-class status for themselves and others, for the comfort & safety they think that provides.

    I hear these actual and implied arguments from gays:

    "I don't intend to get married, so I won't support gay marriage."

    "I think my prosperity is linked to the Republicans, so I don't care what they do to persecute gays."

    "I'll continue to publicly pretend I'm not gay, so I won't be affected by anti-gay legislation. But I'll still be able to cruise gay bars and get sex whenever I want, and that's all I care about."

    "I can be Mister Gay online and spew Republican positions on RJ, but off-line I toe the party line and pretend I'm one of them, not a gay bone in my body. Because if they know I'm gay, I'm conservative toast."

    Well, I'm tired of that hypocrisy and ethical disgrace. Either you're with us, or against us, to quote their Republican leader, George Bush.

    Either you are gay, and all that entails, or you're something else. Claiming to be gay but not giving a damn about other gays isn't gay -- that's the epitome of selfish greed. Give me the sex, show me the money.

    If 70 years ago I was a Jew, and supported Nazi programs to annihilate me and my people, you would call me nuts. If a century earlier I was a Native American, and I supported US efforts to eradicate my own people, you would think me demented, easily deceived, or very well paid-off.

    Which of those describes gays who support the very people who would destroy us? If nothing else, the gay label doesn't describe them. It is forfeit and revoked.

    So that I, for one, find no gay kinship with those who support my mortal enemies. I have no friendship with those who ally themselves with agents for my elimination, and the destruction of those I love.

    I say again: either you are with us, or against us. Our enemies have made that distinction clear. Are we so stupid not to read the writing on the wall?
  • MusicMan87

    Posts: 305

    Sep 28, 2008 10:06 PM GMT
    AMEN
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    Sep 28, 2008 11:16 PM GMT
    Not everyone places gay rights as the primary consideration during voting.

    Most gay republican supporters don't like the republican bias against gays but rather than just oppose for the sake of opposition they work within the party and try and change the establishment from within.
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    Sep 28, 2008 11:28 PM GMT
    I honestly don't think that people in the Republican party truly hate gay people and wish for their anihilation. Maybe a few, but not the majority. There's even a lot of gays that are part of the GOP.

    What I do think is pretty low is how they throw us under the bus just to get to the religious and conservative right. There's no denying they take advantage of it to get more votes.

    Then again, the Democratic party makes it seem as though they support us to get our votes, when in reality they only give us qualified support.
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    Sep 28, 2008 11:33 PM GMT
    Trance24 said
    So your saying gay's must place sexual orientation is the primary motivator in deciding on who to vote for?


    No. In a recent election for the Florida House of Representatives, I contributed the maximum personal amount permitted under state law, and held a fundraiser, for a straight guy. And he was running against a gay opponent.

    Bu this is a straight guy who had held elective office as a Florida mayor, and is very gay friendly. Whereas his gay opponent had never held elective office, and had no experience whatsoever.

    I thought it was better that our gay community have a friend in our gay-hostile state legislature who could do us some good, rather than an out gay guy who would have no chance of getting anything accomplished for us. Lots of symbolism, perhaps, but no results.

    I'm a pragmatist: I want what gets results. The goal is gay rights & equality. Tell me who can do that, and I will support that person.

    What I criticize online are gay guys who support the opposite, that which will deny us gay rights & equality. So in that sense, sexual orientation issues have a priority with me. But WHO I support is not based on their own personal orientation.
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    Sep 28, 2008 11:39 PM GMT
    Trance24 saidNot everyone places gay rights as the primary consideration during voting.


    That's 100% right. A smart voter prioritizes what is important to him and then votes accordingly. You should never mix emotion or lifestyle with what you believe (through a lot of research) is the best person to be president.

    So please do not come on these forums bashing gays who may be Republican. I can guarantee you that they do not agree with the gay-bias that is substantially prevalent in conservative dialogue.
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    Sep 28, 2008 11:43 PM GMT
    Vespa, you're right on the money, buddy
    I don't have plans to get married to a guy, but that does not mean I'm not 100% in favor of gay marriage for all those who DO want to exercise that right.

    What makes me sad is that there are so many straight men and women willing to advocate for our rights, and yet there's still a fraction of us that being gay, are still selfish enough to turn a cold shoulder on our own brothers just because we're not affected directly.

    I'm not going to say that just because we're gay we all HAVE to stand up for one another. I will say because we're ETHICAL people we should do so.
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    Sep 28, 2008 11:44 PM GMT
    Pinny saidSo please do not come on these forums bashing gays who may be Republican. I can guarantee you that they do not agree with the gay-bias that is substantially prevalent in conservative dialogue.


    I agree with what you said, but I do know some gay Republicans who try to deny or chose to ignore the gay basing that does occur.
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    Sep 28, 2008 11:47 PM GMT
    dowal saidI honestly don't think that people in the Republican party truly hate gay people and wish for their anihilation. Maybe a few, but not the majority. There's even a lot of gays that are part of the GOP.


    A great many Republicans hate us gays; the polls show that. And not merely the numerical majority, but more importantly those who are the Republican leaders, and set party policy.

    Read the Republican Party Platform for 2008. It calls for a Constitutional Amendment against gay marriage, and laws opposing all gay rights. If you support a Republican, you support their party goals. And if the last 8 years have taught us anything, it's that individual Republicans may say one thing, but when they vote, they support the party. With them it is Party before Country.

    Vote for a Republican and you vote for your own gay destruction.
  • PRDGUY

    Posts: 641

    Sep 28, 2008 11:47 PM GMT
    In my opinion its the opposite... I work within the GOP to Affect our rites, and more often than not this site RJ has mostly anti GOP stance.

    In fact if Ted Kennedy ran for president as a GOP er after a miracle u'd bash him and his records.
  • SkyMiles

    Posts: 963

    Sep 28, 2008 11:51 PM GMT
    dowal saidI honestly don't think that people in the Republican party truly hate gay people and wish for their anihilation. Maybe a few, but not the majority. There's even a lot of gays that are part of the GOP.

    What I do think is pretty low is how they throw us under the bus just to get to the religious and conservative right. There's no denying they take advantage of it to get more votes.

    Then again, the Democratic party makes it seem as though they support us to get our votes, when in reality they only give us qualified support.


    I've heard that premise before but the way I see it, it IS the religious right that provides much (most?) of the funding and on the ground support for the republican party and they clearly DO hate gays. I'll spare everyone the youtubes and links to statements from these people who blamed us for 9/11 and Katrina, and state that we're all going to hell (unless anyone really needs to see proof of this. Frankly, I don't want to revisit all of that). And I will also suggest that violence against gays gets it's strength from this source.

    From my position too, denial of civil and human rights -- marriage, military service, and the way congressional republicans always exclude gays from protection under hate crimes laws, equates 'hatred' at a party-wide level.
    I mean, in 2004 they nicely used US as the pre-eminant wedge issue that helped win them the election.

    The only republican that comes to mind who even occasionally supports gay rights is Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?), but he's hardly typical.
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    Sep 28, 2008 11:57 PM GMT
    Pinny said
    So please do not come on these forums bashing gays who may be Republican. I can guarantee you that they do not agree with the gay-bias that is substantially prevalent in conservative dialogue.


    If gays do not believe in anti-gay conservative rhetoric, then why would they support conservatives who do not oppose it?

    I say yet again, in the words of that great conservative spokesman George Bush: either you are with us, or against us. Bush is against gays, which cannot be disputed.

    Bush set the standard: in which camp are you? With us or against us?
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    Sep 28, 2008 11:57 PM GMT
    QUOTE AUTHOR GOES HERE

    Vote for a Republican and you vote for your own gay destruction.


    Ladies & Gentlemen, we have ourselves a winner of "The Most Absurd Quote of the Day". Good Lord, Drama-queenitis is running rampant in these threads.


    Personally, I think it's just nothing but a bunch of gay non-Republicans thinking they know what a "Republican" is suppose to be based on some sort of stereotype from the past, and in reality they really don't have a clue. For the life of me, I don't see where the Dems are anything but people who may talk the talk, but when it comes down to actual results they don't walk the walk when it comes to gay rights.

    I also resent this constant barrage of posters here who can't seem to grasp the concept that not EVERYBODY puts their gayness, or anything related to their gayness, up there on the same priority scale as apparently some do. Sorry, but we are all entitled to have our priorities, especially where they affect our political views and voting, and it isn't up to you to decide whether it's wrong or right. What is right for some people, just isn't going to ever be right for all, and that's okay too. It's what makes the world go 'round...DEAL with it!
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    Sep 28, 2008 11:58 PM GMT
    I have to say, I've met some of those hypocritical Republicans who love Gay sex but vote against Gay interests, when I was living in the D.C. area. as far as I'm concerned, Vespa is correct, if a bit passionate. I will say I have met some Republicans who are truly supporters of the Consitution and the rights of ALL Americans, whether they embrace Gays or not. There are SOME areas of gray. But I understand Vespa's passion, and in principle I agree with him.

    Vespa, and others, you may wish to review my website,
    www.respectgaymarriage.com

    I just added a new page, under the link CRISIS BOOK. It's a video I shot of the kick off of a book by Gay activist Mitchell Gold, that discusses the persecution of Gays in America by the religious right. One of the interview clips is with a wonderful man named Brent Childers, who was raised a conservative fundamentalist and very anti-Gay, who as an adult, had an epiphany, and realized his bigotry against Gays and Lesbians was in direct conflict with what his Bible history told him were the true teachings of Christ and the aims of real Cristianity, and so he dedicated his life to making the world, and the Christian Church, a better, safer place for Gays.
  • CuriousJockAZ

    Posts: 19138

    Sep 29, 2008 12:08 AM GMT
    zeebyaboi saidI have to say, I've met some of those hypocritical Republicans who love Gay sex but vote against Gay interests



    Just for the record, I do not personally know a single gay Republican who "votes against gay interests". They may not be out there marching in the streets for them, but they aren't necessarily voting against them either. I'm sure they exist -- HELL, there are hypocrites everywhere. That being said, it's not like there are not also some hypocritical gay democrats doing the same thing, so why make the Republicans the scapegoat for everything gone wrong in the universe as if they spend their every waking moment trying to figure out how they are going to STICK IT to the gays? Sheeeeesh! icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Sep 29, 2008 12:10 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidPersonally, I think it's just nothing but a bunch of gay non-Republicans thinking they know what a "Republican" is...


    But we DO know what a Republican is. We can read their party platform, we can see their legislative acts, we can see them for what they are. Rather than what you would LIKE them to be, in some idealized fantasy world, here's what we actually know.

    Republicans are trying to make sodomy illegal again, so they can arrest us in our bedrooms. Republicans are not only trying to make gay marriage impossible, but prevent my partner from inheriting from me, or me from him. That's already the law in Ohio.

    Gays can't adopt children here in Florida thanks to Republicans, and in North Dakota you can be evicted from your rental apartment if your landlord thinks you're gay.

    Now tell me what Republicans have done to resolve these injustices, or to advance gay civil rights in any way. Or do you think that all this is just fine and dandy, and nothing needs correcting, as the Republicans believe?
  • SkyMiles

    Posts: 963

    Sep 29, 2008 12:11 AM GMT
    The two things I think are really interesting from the posted replies are:

    -gay republicans trying to change the party from within. As an 'outsider' big-time, I'd love to know, seriously, if you are making any progress. I wonder if you're just tolerated, or if you get support.

    -do gay republicans NOT understand why gay non-republicans would be pissed off at them for supporting a political party that works much of the time against gay interests and whose members often vilify gays as being ungodly?
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    Sep 29, 2008 12:14 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ said
    zeebyaboi saidI have to say, I've met some of those hypocritical Republicans who love Gay sex but vote against Gay interests



    Just for the record, I do not personally know a single gay Republican who "votes against gay interests". They may not be out there marching in the streets for them, but they aren't necessarily voting against them either. I'm sure they exist -- HELL, there are hypocrites everywhere. That being said, it's not like there are not also some hypocritical gay democrats doing the same thing, so why make the Republicans the scapegoat for everything gone wrong in the universe as if they spend their every waking moment trying to figure out how they are going to STICK IT to the gays? Sheeeeesh! icon_rolleyes.gif


    Because republicans are the ones who campaign using the gay card and getting the religious conservatives to vote for them. Are the democrats any better? Perhaps not but at least they do not work to limit or abolish your rights. I may not put my gayness in front of everything I do but when I feel that my CONSTITUTIONAL rights are being violated or denied just because of my sexuality, that is WRONG. I find it hypocritical that someone who is gay would vote for candidates who clearlt have an issue with gay people. So had you been a black man back in the 60's would you have voted for a party that did not believe you had rights just because of your skin color?
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    Sep 29, 2008 12:14 AM GMT
    To all you guys working within the Republican party for acceptance, I'd like to thank you, you're doing a real bang up job. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Sep 29, 2008 12:14 AM GMT
    Colbert_Nation saidThe two things I think are really interesting from the posted replies are:

    -gay republicans trying to change the party from within. As an 'outsider' big-time, I'd love to know, seriously, if you are making any progress. I wonder if you're just tolerated, or if you get support.

    -do gay republicans NOT understand why gay non-republicans would be pissed off at them for supporting a political party that works much of the time against gay interests and whose members often vilify gays as being ungodly?


    Beautiful
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    Sep 29, 2008 12:17 AM GMT
    CuriousJockAZ saidI also resent this constant barrage of posters here who can't seem to grasp the concept that not EVERYBODY puts their gayness, or anything related to their gayness, up there on the same priority scale as apparently some do. Sorry, but we are all entitled to have our priorities, especially where they affect our political views and voting, and it isn't up to you to decide whether it's wrong or right. What is right for some people, just isn't going to ever be right for all, and that's okay too. It's what makes the world go 'round...DEAL with it!


    What exactly *are* your priorities then, CuriousJockAZ? And how do they logically preclude a tolerant stance on LGBT issues?
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    Sep 29, 2008 12:17 AM GMT
    McGay saidTo all you guys working within the Republican party for acceptance, I'd like to thank you, you're doing a real bang up job. icon_rolleyes.gif


    LMAO!!!
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    Sep 29, 2008 12:18 AM GMT
    Colbert_Nation saidI've heard that premise before but the way I see it, it IS the religious right that provides much (most?) of the funding and on the ground support for the republican party and they clearly DO hate gays.

    I am not denying that there's a lot of people who vote Republican who truly do hate gays. When I referred to the Republican party, I meant politicians/leaders within the Republican party. My fault for not being specific.

    Yes, there are a lot of voters who hate gays, and Republican candidates use that to their advantage. Some are anti-gay not because they are truly homophobic but because doing so will bring in more votes.

    You will find people who think that having some gay people working for the Republican party is proof enough that the GOP must not be homophobic. I disagree. If the Republican party truly respected us, they would not use as a means to get elected.

    It's understandable why some gays would vote Republican. There's a lot more to politics than sexual orientation issues after all. What I don't understand is how some gay republicans think it's necessary to defend and agree with 100% of the Republican paltform even when it comes to gay rights.
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    Sep 29, 2008 12:21 AM GMT


    What exactly *are* your priorities then, CuriousJockAZ? And how do they logically preclude a tolerant stance on LGBT issues?[/quote]

    Maybe go to Palin's church and have his gayness prayed away?

    Sorry, that was mean but I just find the whole "gay republican" very contradictory.
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    Sep 29, 2008 12:25 AM GMT
    Trance24 saidNot everyone places gay rights as the primary consideration during voting.


    And that's precisely why gay rights have no political clout. And why gay rights won't happen, until selfish queens get off their lazy twats and think about somebody else besides themselves, for the first time in their shallow lives.