UK Conservative opposition to gay marriage gains momentum.

  • shutoman

    Posts: 505

    Feb 03, 2013 1:22 PM GMT
    Local party chairmen deliver a petition to the Prime Minister. This vote may be closer than we think

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21312111

    As in the US, this is proving to be a polarising issue. I wonder just how much of a split this will generate in the Tory party? The back benchers in the Conservative party are getting increasingly militant - even though Cameron's rating is considerably above the party's as a whole.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 03, 2013 2:10 PM GMT
    It should still pass comfortably, as most opposition (and Lib Dem) MPs will vote in favour. As it is a free vote (where MPs are not obliged to follow their party's line) it will not really count as a Conservative rebellion, though the Daily Wail and the Torygraph will probably hype it as such.
  • shutoman

    Posts: 505

    Feb 03, 2013 3:04 PM GMT
    I think you're right regarding the Parliamentary Party. Some of the more christian MPs will find it very difficult, but for most it won't be a problem.

    I'm wondering what the effect will be on grass roots? At the back of my mind is the idea that Cameron is using this as a means to flush out some of the very trad Tories from the party where they might migrate to UKIP. The advantage for him is that they will tend to be very elderly, and therefore might not make an impact for too long. One of the advantages of retaining FPTP for him is that such a migration might only make a modest impact on seats.
  • shutoman

    Posts: 505

    Feb 03, 2013 3:05 PM GMT
    Right, I'm off to watch France -v- Italy for the next couple of hours.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 03, 2013 6:41 PM GMT
    It is almost inevitable that UKIP (BNP-Lite) will split the Tory vote. There is a significant rump in the Conservative Party (mostly older folk) that will settle for nothing less than the UK splitting from the EU, a return to 'traditional values' (traditional bigotry) and zero immigration.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14348

    Feb 05, 2013 8:33 PM GMT
    It appears that the UK is having the exact same problems as the US in regards to the backward thinking of most conservatives on the issue of gay marital equality. How sad.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 05, 2013 8:36 PM GMT
    The House Of Lords will pass it I have no doubt.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 05, 2013 8:45 PM GMT
    whateveryo saidThe House Of Lords will pass it I have no doubt.



    I have. If it gets held up anywhere it will be in the House of Lords. Just as well the Commons can overrule them, though it is a rarely invoked power, so it will cause a stir if it happens.
  • metatextual

    Posts: 774

    Feb 05, 2013 8:45 PM GMT
    What's the legal issues with civil unions in the UK? In Canada, the Supreme Court held that they were against the Charter (of Rights) and knocked down any legislation making unions between same-sex individuals any different than between different sex persons. Of course, there are right-wing conservatives who continue to push for a free vote, but PM Harper won't let the crazies run the caucus.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 05, 2013 8:51 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 said
    whateveryo saidThe House Of Lords will pass it I have no doubt.



    I have. If it gets held up anywhere it will be in the House of Lords. Just as well the Commons can overrule them, though it is a rarely invoked power, so it will cause a stir if it happens.


    I'm actually optimistic for once. I think a few of them have reservations about certain religious institutions being 'forced' to conduct gay marriage ceremonies but since that won't be the case I expect it to pass.

    I do think all of the crazies are going to come out of the woodwork now unfortunately.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14348

    Feb 05, 2013 8:56 PM GMT
    metatextual saidWhat's the legal issues with civil unions in the UK? In Canada, the Supreme Court held that they were against the Charter (of Rights) and knocked down any legislation making unions between same-sex individuals any different than between different sex persons. Of course, there are right-wing conservatives who continue to push for a free vote, but PM Harper won't let the crazies run the caucus.
    It is quite obvious that the Canadians along with several of the Europeans are light years ahead of the Americans on the issue of gay marital equality.
  • Menergy_1

    Posts: 737

    Feb 05, 2013 9:12 PM GMT
    BREAKING: British House Of Commons Overwhelmingly Approves Marriage Bill


    The final vote was 400-175. A large number of Tories "rebelled" against Prime Minister David Cameron and voted against the bill. The bill now heads for its third and final reading.

    Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg reacts:
    I genuinely believe that we will look back on today as a landmark for equality in Britain. Tonight’s vote shows parliament is very strongly in favour of equal marriage. No matter who you are and who you love, we are all equal. Marriage is about love and commitment, and it should no longer be denied to people just because they are gay. The Liberal Democrats have long fought for equal marriage. It is party policy and I am proud that the Liberal Democrats are part of the coalition government that are making it happen.
    From the Guardian's live blog:
    MPs have voted for the gay marriage bill by 400 votes to 175 - a majority of 225. Such a large majority probably increases the chances of the bill being able to get through the House of Lords this year, without the government having to rely on the Parliament Act to push it through in 2014. More than half of the Tory MPs who voted chose to oppose gay marriage. Initial figures suggest that 139 Tories voted against, and only 132 voted for. Technically this is not a rebellion, because it was a free vote. But it is a severe embarrassment to David Cameron.


  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 05, 2013 9:13 PM GMT
    If I find someone who wants to marry me I think it would be fun to "force" a really bigoted vicar to do it, grumbling under his breath and saying everything in a sarcastic tone of voice.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 05, 2013 10:02 PM GMT
    bus9ja2d saidIf I find someone who wants to marry me I think it would be fun to "force" a really bigoted vicar to do it, grumbling under his breath and saying everything in a sarcastic tone of voice.


    Sadly, that is not going to happen any time soon, as the Bill specifically bars Church of England clergy from performing gay marriage ceremonies.
  • shutoman

    Posts: 505

    Feb 05, 2013 11:13 PM GMT
    I agree with Ex-Mil8 about the Lords.

    The problem is that it was not a manifesto pledge, therefore the Commons can't invoke the Parliament Act (for non-Brits, the Parliament Act is a law which allows the elected Commons to force legislation through appointed Lords if 1. the law was a manifesto pledge or 2. the law relates to finance/taxation)

    This is just the sort of area where the Lords like to flex their muscles and many of the Labour Peers will be against this change. But we'll see.

    As for UKIP, their tale is up at the moment (although Nigel Farage is not now standing in Eastleigh I notice) and unfortunately they are tapping into a very strong xenophobic seam at the moment.

    I have a yahoo account and some of the comments on those strings make the Daily Mail look moderate and balanced. And the support those comments receive makes the blood run cold.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 05, 2013 11:26 PM GMT
    The house will pass it.
  • shutoman

    Posts: 505

    Feb 05, 2013 11:40 PM GMT
    ^ The Lords? We'll see.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 05, 2013 11:48 PM GMT
    Although from what I have been reading on Pink UK, the backbenchers are being very vocal on the Bill not passing. Lucky the homosexuals of the UK are better off than many other brothers in other foreign lands.
  • shutoman

    Posts: 505

    Feb 06, 2013 2:57 PM GMT
    As you might have seen, True blue, more than half of the Conservative back bench voted against this proposal. The bill was passed at first reading by a whopping majority - but it's still not a good result for Cameron, even on a free vote.
  • seafrontbloke

    Posts: 300

    Feb 06, 2013 3:08 PM GMT
    shutoman saidI agree with Ex-Mil8 about the Lords.

    The problem is that it was not a manifesto pledge, therefore the Commons can't invoke the Parliament Act (for non-Brits, the Parliament Act is a law which allows the elected Commons to force legislation through appointed Lords if 1. the law was a manifesto pledge or 2. the law relates to finance/taxation)

    This is just the sort of area where the Lords like to flex their muscles and many of the Labour Peers will be against this change. But we'll see.

    As for UKIP, their tale is up at the moment (although Nigel Farage is not now standing in Eastleigh I notice) and unfortunately they are tapping into a very strong xenophobic seam at the moment.

    I have a yahoo account and some of the comments on those strings make the Daily Mail look moderate and balanced. And the support those comments receive makes the blood run cold.


    I don't think that's the case. The Salisbury convention stops the Lords from voting against matters that were in the Government's manifesto. However, the Parliament Acts (11 and 49) stop the lords from delaying a bill for more than one year. If the Commons vote for something in two sessions, and both times the Lords vote against, the Commons can then ignore the Lords and go straight to Royal Assent.

    Even if that wasn't the case, I think some Lords who might be minded to vote against this will be aware of the majority in the commons and the fact that two and a half parties out of three voted in favour.

  • shutoman

    Posts: 505

    Feb 07, 2013 6:09 PM GMT
    I'm happy to welcome that helpful clarification all the way for Hove, actually :-)

    Well, we can hold the speculation here, I suppose, as It won't be long before we find out. But I reckon it'll be a lot closer than the commons.