Affordable Care Act,” aka “Obamacare.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 06, 2013 1:37 PM GMT
    Interesting perspective concerning the impact of Obamacare from someone in my business.

    http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/06/the-coming-obamacare-recession

    "I’m in the commercial real estate business, and have managed commercial properties for more than 20 years. A friend of mine has been in the real estate services business, providing everything from janitorial services to window washing to parking lot repairs for about as long. In fact, the company I work for was his first account. In the last 20 years, he has expanded from a handful of full-time employees to 150 full-time employees. I recently discussed with him his concerns about the effect of Obamacare on his business. Most of his employees are in lower-skill occupations and so only earn $10 - $15 per hour. He cannot afford to tack on health care benefits equal to another $3.50 to $5.50 per hour without going broke. His more affordable alternative would be to pay the $2,000 per employee fee, which would effectively erase his entire 2012 profit from his business. In essence, this one provision is the equivalent of a 90% - 100% tax on his typical net business income. Worse yet, since the law does not allow the $2,000 per employee charge as a deductible business expense, he’ll have to pay federal income tax on approximately $240,000 of business income he didn’t get. Implicit in the law (or perhaps it is explicit) is the notion that it is the responsibility of employers to provide health insurance to their employees, and if they don’t they are bad people, greedy capitalists exploiting the working class, and deserve to be punished.

    What is my friend to do? He can raise his prices and risk losing business from people like me who will then need to cut back on his services, or who will go to his smaller competitors with fewer than 50 employees who are not (yet) subject to the fee. Or he can cut back the hours of his employees until he has fewer than 50 working full-time. Or he can fire most of his employees and tell them they are on their own as independent contractors, and he may be able to subcontract with them from time-to-time for specific jobs. None of these alternatives are good for the business owner, his customers, his employees, or the economy in general."
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 06, 2013 2:05 PM GMT
    What are people without healthcare to do when they get ill or need emergency care? Why is your friend able to pay employees so little and care about them so little and expect society to pay for their healthcare when they run to the hospital and use emergency rooms and can't afford to pay the bill?

    Most thinking Americans know the system is broke. The problem is, Republicans watered the original bill down because they pretended to show support and in the end, they got what they wanted, a watered down bill and yet they still did not support it. So fewer people get any insurance and more companies have to pay.

    Single payer would have been wise. This private industry of health insurance has been ruining our healthcare for 5 decades and will bankrupt the country unless an overhaul takes place, but as long as we have entrenched do nothing republicans and pussy democrats, nothing will get done. Look at these bloated idiots sitting on their hands every day.

    Our entire congressional system is failing us because they are either purchased by lobbyists or just too lazy/stupid to realize that their inaction is the majority of the problem is this failing country.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 06, 2013 2:10 PM GMT
    Healthcare in the USA costs about 2-3 times more per capita than the healthcare systems of countries such as the UK and Germany that have superior outcomes. Indeed, if the USA were to pay the same costs as the UK on a per capita basis—not at all unrealistic given that everything else in more expensive in the UK in real terms!—we would completely eliminate the federal deficit.

    If you don't think the old system is broken, you're an utter idiot. It's true that Obamacare [Romneycare] doesn't do enough to address cost control, but it will have some effect: the state of Massachusetts has consistently had the lowest or near lowest growth in costs while Universal Healthcare has been in force here.

    And next time I hear you bitching about "death panels", I'll slap you.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 06, 2013 4:10 PM GMT
    TigerTim saidHealthcare in the USA costs about 2-3 times more per capita than the healthcare systems of countries such as the UK and Germany that have superior outcomes. Indeed, if the USA were to pay the same costs as the UK on a per capita basis—not at all unrealistic given that everything else in more expensive in the UK in real terms!—we would completely eliminate the federal deficit.

    If you don't think the old system is broken, you're an utter idiot. It's true that Obamacare [Romneycare] doesn't do enough to address cost control, but it will have some effect: the state of Massachusetts has consistently had the lowest or near lowest growth in costs while Universal Healthcare has been in force here.

    And next time I hear you bitching about "death panels", I'll slap you.


    Who are you talking to?
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    Feb 06, 2013 4:14 PM GMT
    smartmoney saidWhat are people without healthcare to do when they get ill or need emergency care? Why is your friend able to pay employees so little and care about them so little and expect society to pay for their healthcare when they run to the hospital and use emergency rooms and can't afford to pay the bill?

    Most thinking Americans know the system is broke. The problem is, Republicans watered the original bill down because they pretended to show support and in the end, they got what they wanted, a watered down bill and yet they still did not support it. So fewer people get any insurance and more companies have to pay.

    Single payer would have been wise. This private industry of health insurance has been ruining our healthcare for 5 decades and will bankrupt the country unless an overhaul takes place, but as long as we have entrenched do nothing republicans and pussy democrats, nothing will get done. Look at these bloated idiots sitting on their hands every day.

    Our entire congressional system is failing us because they are either purchased by lobbyists or just too lazy/stupid to realize that their inaction is the majority of the problem is this failing country.


    "Why is your friend "

    My friend? I said he's in my business, but not that I personally know him.

    Feel free to ask him about HIS friend.


    By Brandon Crocker on 2.6.13 @ 6:09AM

    About the Author

    Brandon Crocker is the chief financial officer of a commercial real estate development and management company in San Diego
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 06, 2013 7:52 PM GMT
    We're all friends. Even though FIF is a repubby were still besties.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3283

    Feb 06, 2013 9:20 PM GMT
    smartmoney saidWhat are people without healthcare to do when they get ill or need emergency care? Why is your friend able to pay employees so little and care about them so little and expect society to pay for their healthcare when they run to the hospital and use emergency rooms and can't afford to pay the bill?

    Most thinking Americans know the system is broke. The problem is, Republicans watered the original bill down because they pretended to show support and in the end, they got what they wanted, a watered down bill and yet they still did not support it. So fewer people get any insurance and more companies have to pay.
    .



    What part of the Healthcare bill has any amendment put forth by Republicans. As you say "watered down".

    Few if any Republicans showed support for the bill.

    It may have been watered down but I cannot recall ANY republican amendments making it to the bill conference.

    back up that statement.

    In fact the whole bill subverted regular order.

    P.S. I know the answer and its NO, no republican amendments made it passed committee.

    https://douglawrence.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/complete-list-of-republican-obamacare-amendments-all-were-killed-by-the-democrats/
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Feb 07, 2013 2:45 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    smartmoney saidWhat are people without healthcare to do when they get ill or need emergency care? Why is your friend able to pay employees so little and care about them so little and expect society to pay for their healthcare when they run to the hospital and use emergency rooms and can't afford to pay the bill?

    Most thinking Americans know the system is broke. The problem is, Republicans watered the original bill down because they pretended to show support and in the end, they got what they wanted, a watered down bill and yet they still did not support it. So fewer people get any insurance and more companies have to pay.
    .



    What part of the Healthcare bill has any amendment put forth by Republicans. As you say "watered down".

    Few if any Republicans showed support for the bill.

    It may have been watered down but I cannot recall ANY republican amendments making it to the bill conference.

    back up that statement.

    In fact the whole bill subverted regular order.

    P.S. I know the answer and its NO, no republican amendments made it passed committee.

    https://douglawrence.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/complete-list-of-republican-obamacare-amendments-all-were-killed-by-the-democrats/


    DUDE!!!


    IT'S A REPUBLICAN IDEA THAT WAS IMPLEMENTED FIRST BY A REPUBLICAN
    (It just got the republican cooties now because Obama said it was a good Idea)
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 07, 2013 2:55 AM GMT
    msuNtx saidWe're all friends. Even though FIF is a repubby were still besties.


    And your point is...?
  • thadjock

    Posts: 2183

    Feb 07, 2013 3:24 AM GMT
    smartmoney said
    Single payer would have been wise. This private industry of health insurance has been ruining our healthcare for 5 decades and will bankrupt the country unless an overhaul takes place, but as long as we have entrenched do nothing republicans and pussy democrats, nothing will get done. Look at these bloated idiots sitting on their hands every day.



    ^this

    i'm as frustrated and disgusted with the bill they got passed as you are, but....and i know this is wishful thinking, but I hope Obama's long game on healthcare IS to get single payer. the dude has been stealthy on getting other landmark things done. I'm reserving judgment for now.

    Probably not during his presidency but he's setting up hillary for 2016 and NO ONE will want to shove single payer down the Republican's throat more than Hillary & Bill after what they did to her healthcare initiative while bill was president. theres'a lot of pussy democrats as you say, but I think there's some lethal MF'ers at the top. and at least for now the Republican's pants are down around their knees.
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    Feb 07, 2013 5:04 AM GMT
    freedomisntfree saidInteresting perspective concerning the impact of Obamacare from someone in my business.

    http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/06/the-coming-obamacare-recession

    "I’m in the commercial real estate business, and have managed commercial properties for more than 20 years. A friend of mine has been in the real estate services business, providing everything from janitorial services to window washing to parking lot repairs for about as long. In fact, the company I work for was his first account. In the last 20 years, he has expanded from a handful of full-time employees to 150 full-time employees. I recently discussed with him his concerns about the effect of Obamacare on his business. Most of his employees are in lower-skill occupations and so only earn $10 - $15 per hour. He cannot afford to tack on health care benefits equal to another $3.50 to $5.50 per hour without going broke. His more affordable alternative would be to pay the $2,000 per employee fee, which would effectively erase his entire 2012 profit from his business. In essence, this one provision is the equivalent of a 90% - 100% tax on his typical net business income. Worse yet, since the law does not allow the $2,000 per employee charge as a deductible business expense, he’ll have to pay federal income tax on approximately $240,000 of business income he didn’t get. Implicit in the law (or perhaps it is explicit) is the notion that it is the responsibility of employers to provide health insurance to their employees, and if they don’t they are bad people, greedy capitalists exploiting the working class, and deserve to be punished.

    What is my friend to do? He can raise his prices and risk losing business from people like me who will then need to cut back on his services, or who will go to his smaller competitors with fewer than 50 employees who are not (yet) subject to the fee. Or he can cut back the hours of his employees until he has fewer than 50 working full-time. Or he can fire most of his employees and tell them they are on their own as independent contractors, and he may be able to subcontract with them from time-to-time for specific jobs. None of these alternatives are good for the business owner, his customers, his employees, or the economy in general."




    I'd say you "or your friend" should give up the business since it was predicated on exploiting employees for maximum profit. I know, I know - you (or your 'friend') was hoping to be a bad person / greedy capitalist who exploited the working class and hoped to avoid the ethical repercussions. I'd suggest that you (or 'your friend') go ahead and cut back hours on your employees to continue treating them as second class humans. Or cut back from your wrist to your elbow with a straight razor. Either way - the world goes on.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 07, 2013 5:04 AM GMT
    freedomisntfree saidInteresting perspective concerning the impact of Obamacare from someone in my business.

    http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/06/the-coming-obamacare-recession

    "I’m in the commercial real estate business, and have managed commercial properties for more than 20 years. A friend of mine has been in the real estate services business, providing everything from janitorial services to window washing to parking lot repairs for about as long. In fact, the company I work for was his first account. In the last 20 years, he has expanded from a handful of full-time employees to 150 full-time employees. I recently discussed with him his concerns about the effect of Obamacare on his business. Most of his employees are in lower-skill occupations and so only earn $10 - $15 per hour. He cannot afford to tack on health care benefits equal to another $3.50 to $5.50 per hour without going broke. His more affordable alternative would be to pay the $2,000 per employee fee, which would effectively erase his entire 2012 profit from his business. In essence, this one provision is the equivalent of a 90% - 100% tax on his typical net business income. Worse yet, since the law does not allow the $2,000 per employee charge as a deductible business expense, he’ll have to pay federal income tax on approximately $240,000 of business income he didn’t get. Implicit in the law (or perhaps it is explicit) is the notion that it is the responsibility of employers to provide health insurance to their employees, and if they don’t they are bad people, greedy capitalists exploiting the working class, and deserve to be punished.

    What is my friend to do? He can raise his prices and risk losing business from people like me who will then need to cut back on his services, or who will go to his smaller competitors with fewer than 50 employees who are not (yet) subject to the fee. Or he can cut back the hours of his employees until he has fewer than 50 working full-time. Or he can fire most of his employees and tell them they are on their own as independent contractors, and he may be able to subcontract with them from time-to-time for specific jobs. None of these alternatives are good for the business owner, his customers, his employees, or the economy in general."




    I'd say you "or your friend" should give up the business since it was predicated on exploiting employees for maximum profit. I know, I know - you (or your 'friend') was hoping to be a bad person / greedy capitalist who exploited the working class and hoped to avoid the ethical repercussions. I'd suggest that you (or 'your friend') go ahead and cut back hours on your employees to continue treating them as second class humans. Or cut back from your wrist to your elbow with a straight razor. Either way - the world goes on.
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    Feb 07, 2013 5:06 AM GMT
    atxd13 said
    freedomisntfree saidInteresting perspective concerning the impact of Obamacare from someone in my business.

    http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/06/the-coming-obamacare-recession

    "I’m in the commercial real estate business, and have managed commercial properties for more than 20 years. A friend of mine has been in the real estate services business, providing everything from janitorial services to window washing to parking lot repairs for about as long. In fact, the company I work for was his first account. In the last 20 years, he has expanded from a handful of full-time employees to 150 full-time employees. I recently discussed with him his concerns about the effect of Obamacare on his business. Most of his employees are in lower-skill occupations and so only earn $10 - $15 per hour. He cannot afford to tack on health care benefits equal to another $3.50 to $5.50 per hour without going broke. His more affordable alternative would be to pay the $2,000 per employee fee, which would effectively erase his entire 2012 profit from his business. In essence, this one provision is the equivalent of a 90% - 100% tax on his typical net business income. Worse yet, since the law does not allow the $2,000 per employee charge as a deductible business expense, he’ll have to pay federal income tax on approximately $240,000 of business income he didn’t get. Implicit in the law (or perhaps it is explicit) is the notion that it is the responsibility of employers to provide health insurance to their employees, and if they don’t they are bad people, greedy capitalists exploiting the working class, and deserve to be punished.

    What is my friend to do? He can raise his prices and risk losing business from people like me who will then need to cut back on his services, or who will go to his smaller competitors with fewer than 50 employees who are not (yet) subject to the fee. Or he can cut back the hours of his employees until he has fewer than 50 working full-time. Or he can fire most of his employees and tell them they are on their own as independent contractors, and he may be able to subcontract with them from time-to-time for specific jobs. None of these alternatives are good for the business owner, his customers, his employees, or the economy in general."




    I'd say you "or your friend" should give up the business since it was predicated on exploiting employees for maximum profit. I know, I know - you (or your 'friend') was hoping to be a bad person / greedy capitalist who exploited the working class and hoped to avoid the ethical repercussions. I'd suggest that you (or 'your friend') go ahead and cut back hours on your employees to continue treating them as second class humans. Or cut back from your wrist to your elbow with a straight razor. Either way - the world goes on.


    Read what I said above and take notice of the quotation marks. Do you know what they mean?

    I said he's in my business, but not that I personally know him. I do know of him.

    Feel free to ask HIM about HIS friend.

    By Brandon Crocker on 2.6.13 @ 6:09AM

    About the Author

    Brandon Crocker is the chief financial officer of a commercial real estate development and management company in San Diego

    or better yet, click on http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/06/the-coming-obamacare-recession which might put the above in context.
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Feb 07, 2013 5:26 AM GMT
    As far as I know (please prove me wrong, if I am wrong), Obamacare does not require businesses to provide health insurance.

    Obamacare requires almost all people to GET health insurance, whether it's the health insurance they already have from their workplace, health insurance they purchase themselves, or, if they can't afford it, health insurance provided by the U.S. government (taxpayers).
  • Webster666

    Posts: 9217

    Feb 07, 2013 5:28 AM GMT
    thadjock said
    smartmoney said
    Single payer would have been wise. This private industry of health insurance has been ruining our healthcare for 5 decades and will bankrupt the country unless an overhaul takes place, but as long as we have entrenched do nothing republicans and pussy democrats, nothing will get done. Look at these bloated idiots sitting on their hands every day.



    ^this

    i'm as frustrated and disgusted with the bill they got passed as you are, but....and i know this is wishful thinking, but I hope Obama's long game on healthcare IS to get single payer. the dude has been stealthy on getting other landmark things done. I'm reserving judgment for now.

    Probably not during his presidency but he's setting up hillary for 2016 and NO ONE will want to shove single payer down the Republican's throat more than Hillary & Bill after what they did to her healthcare initiative while bill was president. theres'a lot of pussy democrats as you say, but I think there's some lethal MF'ers at the top. and at least for now the Republican's pants are down around their knees.



    Excellent posts from both of you.
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    Feb 10, 2013 8:28 AM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    atxd13 said
    freedomisntfree saidInteresting perspective concerning the impact of Obamacare from someone in my business.

    http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/06/the-coming-obamacare-recession

    "I’m in the commercial real estate business, and have managed commercial properties for more than 20 years. A friend of mine has been in the real estate services business, providing everything from janitorial services to window washing to parking lot repairs for about as long. In fact, the company I work for was his first account. In the last 20 years, he has expanded from a handful of full-time employees to 150 full-time employees. I recently discussed with him his concerns about the effect of Obamacare on his business. Most of his employees are in lower-skill occupations and so only earn $10 - $15 per hour. He cannot afford to tack on health care benefits equal to another $3.50 to $5.50 per hour without going broke. His more affordable alternative would be to pay the $2,000 per employee fee, which would effectively erase his entire 2012 profit from his business. In essence, this one provision is the equivalent of a 90% - 100% tax on his typical net business income. Worse yet, since the law does not allow the $2,000 per employee charge as a deductible business expense, he’ll have to pay federal income tax on approximately $240,000 of business income he didn’t get. Implicit in the law (or perhaps it is explicit) is the notion that it is the responsibility of employers to provide health insurance to their employees, and if they don’t they are bad people, greedy capitalists exploiting the working class, and deserve to be punished.

    What is my friend to do? He can raise his prices and risk losing business from people like me who will then need to cut back on his services, or who will go to his smaller competitors with fewer than 50 employees who are not (yet) subject to the fee. Or he can cut back the hours of his employees until he has fewer than 50 working full-time. Or he can fire most of his employees and tell them they are on their own as independent contractors, and he may be able to subcontract with them from time-to-time for specific jobs. None of these alternatives are good for the business owner, his customers, his employees, or the economy in general."




    I'd say you "or your friend" should give up the business since it was predicated on exploiting employees for maximum profit. I know, I know - you (or your 'friend') was hoping to be a bad person / greedy capitalist who exploited the working class and hoped to avoid the ethical repercussions. I'd suggest that you (or 'your friend') go ahead and cut back hours on your employees to continue treating them as second class humans. Or cut back from your wrist to your elbow with a straight razor. Either way - the world goes on.


    Read what I said above and take notice of the quotation marks. Do you know what they mean?

    I said he's in my business, but not that I personally know him. I do know of him.

    Feel free to ask HIM about HIS friend.

    By Brandon Crocker on 2.6.13 @ 6:09AM

    About the Author

    Brandon Crocker is the chief financial officer of a commercial real estate development and management company in San Diego

    or better yet, click on http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/06/the-coming-obamacare-recession which might put the above in context.


    No girl.. I get the full meaning of your quotation marks. They indicate plausible deniability. If the person who made the comments are full of shit then you get to claim you had no idea what the fuck you were quoting. I've seen enough Fox News to understand what quotation marks mean.

    But let's take it a step further. Either you quoted something that you don't understand or something that you don't fully endorse. You started this friend with this thread with an egregious quote from "your friend".... You either stand by it or you are full of shit.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 10, 2013 2:03 PM GMT
    atxd13 said
    freedomisntfree said
    atxd13 said
    freedomisntfree saidInteresting perspective concerning the impact of Obamacare from someone in my business.

    http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/06/the-coming-obamacare-recession

    "I’m in the commercial real estate business, and have managed commercial properties for more than 20 years. A friend of mine has been in the real estate services business, providing everything from janitorial services to window washing to parking lot repairs for about as long. In fact, the company I work for was his first account. In the last 20 years, he has expanded from a handful of full-time employees to 150 full-time employees. I recently discussed with him his concerns about the effect of Obamacare on his business. Most of his employees are in lower-skill occupations and so only earn $10 - $15 per hour. He cannot afford to tack on health care benefits equal to another $3.50 to $5.50 per hour without going broke. His more affordable alternative would be to pay the $2,000 per employee fee, which would effectively erase his entire 2012 profit from his business. In essence, this one provision is the equivalent of a 90% - 100% tax on his typical net business income. Worse yet, since the law does not allow the $2,000 per employee charge as a deductible business expense, he’ll have to pay federal income tax on approximately $240,000 of business income he didn’t get. Implicit in the law (or perhaps it is explicit) is the notion that it is the responsibility of employers to provide health insurance to their employees, and if they don’t they are bad people, greedy capitalists exploiting the working class, and deserve to be punished.

    What is my friend to do? He can raise his prices and risk losing business from people like me who will then need to cut back on his services, or who will go to his smaller competitors with fewer than 50 employees who are not (yet) subject to the fee. Or he can cut back the hours of his employees until he has fewer than 50 working full-time. Or he can fire most of his employees and tell them they are on their own as independent contractors, and he may be able to subcontract with them from time-to-time for specific jobs. None of these alternatives are good for the business owner, his customers, his employees, or the economy in general."




    I'd say you "or your friend" should give up the business since it was predicated on exploiting employees for maximum profit. I know, I know - you (or your 'friend') was hoping to be a bad person / greedy capitalist who exploited the working class and hoped to avoid the ethical repercussions. I'd suggest that you (or 'your friend') go ahead and cut back hours on your employees to continue treating them as second class humans. Or cut back from your wrist to your elbow with a straight razor. Either way - the world goes on.


    Read what I said above and take notice of the quotation marks. Do you know what they mean?

    I said he's in my business, but not that I personally know him. I do know of him.

    Feel free to ask HIM about HIS friend.

    By Brandon Crocker on 2.6.13 @ 6:09AM

    About the Author

    Brandon Crocker is the chief financial officer of a commercial real estate development and management company in San Diego

    or better yet, click on http://spectator.org/archives/2013/02/06/the-coming-obamacare-recession which might put the above in context.


    No girl.. I get the full meaning of your quotation marks. They indicate plausible deniability. If the person who made the comments are full of shit then you get to claim you had no idea what the fuck you were quoting. I've seen enough Fox News to understand what quotation marks mean.

    But let's take it a step further. Either you quoted something that you don't understand or something that you don't fully endorse. You started this friend with this thread with an egregious quote from "your friend".... You either stand by it or you are full of shit.


    Girl ... my ass you blithering cunt. I thought they shot little bitches just like you down in texas.

    "egregious quote "

    I posted it because it was a well thought out opinion of someone in my business IMO and you may disagree. The author is not a friend, but only someone I know of and may have talked to him a time or two. His opinion, however, is one that I mostly agree with. There .... you happy?
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    Feb 10, 2013 3:01 PM GMT
    If is funny how the pro-capitalist crowd can get bent out of shape when the reality of capitalism comes home to roost. If someone is running a business of 150 FTE and is making around 2.4k per FTE then they are running a business on incredibly thin margins. Using sloppy math based on the wages mentioned and the profit given it is under 6% and probably less when you roll in whatever fixed costs go along with whatever the business the individual is in. While doing so is done for a competitive advantage it is also a calculated risk. Using the example mentioned in the article there are any number of things could wipe out the business owners profit. The person's issue isn't the Affordable Healthcare Act it is the business model they are using. The upside for the business is that the Affordable Healthcare applies to everyone and not just them. So, if the option is raise prices then their competitors are likely facing the same thing.
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    Feb 10, 2013 3:35 PM GMT
    The_Gingerhead_Man saidIf is funny how the pro-capitalist crowd can get bent out of shape when the reality of capitalism comes home to roost. If someone is running a business of 150 FTE and is making around 2.4k per FTE then they are running a business on incredibly thin margins. Using sloppy math based on the wages mentioned and the profit given it is under 6% and probably less when you roll in whatever fixed costs go along with whatever the business the individual is in. While doing so is done for a competitive advantage it is also a calculated risk. Using the example mentioned in the article there are any number of things could wipe out the business owners profit. The person's issue isn't the Affordable Healthcare Act it is the business model they are using. The upside for the business is that the Affordable Healthcare applies to everyone and not just them. So, if the option is raise prices then their competitors are likely facing the same thing.


    "then they are running a business on incredibly thin margins"

    That does happen? Your solution if any? Mine was not to hire and do everything myself and contract out to ICs what I absolutely can't do myself. I don't find 6% to be an unusual margin.
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    Feb 10, 2013 4:08 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    The_Gingerhead_Man saidIf is funny how the pro-capitalist crowd can get bent out of shape when the reality of capitalism comes home to roost. If someone is running a business of 150 FTE and is making around 2.4k per FTE then they are running a business on incredibly thin margins. Using sloppy math based on the wages mentioned and the profit given it is under 6% and probably less when you roll in whatever fixed costs go along with whatever the business the individual is in. While doing so is done for a competitive advantage it is also a calculated risk. Using the example mentioned in the article there are any number of things could wipe out the business owners profit. The person's issue isn't the Affordable Healthcare Act it is the business model they are using. The upside for the business is that the Affordable Healthcare applies to everyone and not just them. So, if the option is raise prices then their competitors are likely facing the same thing.


    "then they are running a business on incredibly thin margins"

    That does happen? Your solution if any? Mine was not to hire and do everything myself and contract out to ICs what I absolutely can't do myself. I don't find 6% to be an unusual margin.


    You are right that does happen but it is also a sign of poor business health. That was the point of my post and it isn't the job of the government to protect a business that has a poor business model. Business that are poorly planned and run fail that is part of capitalism.

    Do I have a solution? No, I don't work in real estate services and don't have the expertise to offer one. Perhaps the fact that you are asking me is part of the problem. I would consult with someone who is actually successful in the field rather than someone on an RJ forum.

    I am not sure who you find 6% to be unusual for but I assume you mean within the industry of real estate services and that may or may no be the case. I looked but couldn't it isn't something that anyone breaks out. I assume the work falls under a cleaning services and general contractors both of which have higher profit margins that 6%. But again, this is in no way my area of expertise.

    In the example I mentioned here is how I did the math. I call this out just to make the point clear why I am saying it is the business model.

    For the cost of operations I used the median pay of the range that was mentioned. That is 12.5 an hour. This gives an operating cost of 3.9 million and then added the 240,000 that was going to wipe out the profit and came to 4.14 million in revenue (this is clearly low as it doesn't account for any fixed costs, or the owner's income as I assume they make more than the 10-15 dollars mentioned) and that comes to 5.79%. Given that the fixed costs will mean that the cost of operation and revue are both larger than what I accounted for that 5.79% is only going to go down. Sorry, but that is just not business model as I would assume the owner is in business to make money and not just get by.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 10, 2013 4:31 PM GMT
    Sorry to double post but I pondered your question about suggestions and I actually came up with one. YTD my 401k has just about out performed the return that that business owner and you are getting on the money you are putting into your business. So my suggestion would be to liquidate and invest. You will get a better return and have to do less for work for it.
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    Feb 10, 2013 4:48 PM GMT
    The_Gingerhead_Man said
    freedomisntfree said
    The_Gingerhead_Man saidIf is funny how the pro-capitalist crowd can get bent out of shape when the reality of capitalism comes home to roost. If someone is running a business of 150 FTE and is making around 2.4k per FTE then they are running a business on incredibly thin margins. Using sloppy math based on the wages mentioned and the profit given it is under 6% and probably less when you roll in whatever fixed costs go along with whatever the business the individual is in. While doing so is done for a competitive advantage it is also a calculated risk. Using the example mentioned in the article there are any number of things could wipe out the business owners profit. The person's issue isn't the Affordable Healthcare Act it is the business model they are using. The upside for the business is that the Affordable Healthcare applies to everyone and not just them. So, if the option is raise prices then their competitors are likely facing the same thing.


    "then they are running a business on incredibly thin margins"

    That does happen? Your solution if any? Mine was not to hire and do everything myself and contract out to ICs what I absolutely can't do myself. I don't find 6% to be an unusual margin.


    You are right that does happen but it is also a sign of poor business health. That was the point of my post and it isn't the job of the government to protect a business that has a poor business model. Business that are poorly planned and run fail that is part of capitalism.

    Do I have a solution? No, I don't work in real estate services and don't have the expertise to offer one. Perhaps the fact that you are asking me is part of the problem. I would consult with someone who is actually successful in the field rather than someone on an RJ forum.

    I am not sure who you find 6% to be unusual for but I assume you mean within the industry of real estate services and that may or may no be the case. I looked but couldn't it isn't something that anyone breaks out. I assume the work falls under a cleaning services and general contractors both of which have higher profit margins that 6%. But again, this is in no way my area of expertise.

    In the example I mentioned here is how I did the math. I call this out just to make the point clear why I am saying it is the business model.

    For the cost of operations I used the median pay of the range that was mentioned. That is 12.5 an hour. This gives an operating cost of 3.9 million and then added the 240,000 that was going to wipe out the profit and came to 4.14 million in revenue (this is clearly low as it doesn't account for any fixed costs, or the owner's income as I assume they make more than the 10-15 dollars mentioned) and that comes to 5.79%. Given that the fixed costs will mean that the cost of operation and revue are both larger than what I accounted for that 5.79% is only going to go down. Sorry, but that is just not business model as I would assume the owner is in business to make money and not just get by.



    "You are right that does happen but it is also a sign of poor business health"

    That couldn't be more correct regarding both the residential and commercial side of this business in a down cycle, which happens every seven or eight years with the difference being that this down cycle lasted a very long time.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 10, 2013 5:07 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree said
    The_Gingerhead_Man said
    freedomisntfree said
    The_Gingerhead_Man saidIf is funny how the pro-capitalist crowd can get bent out of shape when the reality of capitalism comes home to roost. If someone is running a business of 150 FTE and is making around 2.4k per FTE then they are running a business on incredibly thin margins. Using sloppy math based on the wages mentioned and the profit given it is under 6% and probably less when you roll in whatever fixed costs go along with whatever the business the individual is in. While doing so is done for a competitive advantage it is also a calculated risk. Using the example mentioned in the article there are any number of things could wipe out the business owners profit. The person's issue isn't the Affordable Healthcare Act it is the business model they are using. The upside for the business is that the Affordable Healthcare applies to everyone and not just them. So, if the option is raise prices then their competitors are likely facing the same thing.


    "then they are running a business on incredibly thin margins"

    That does happen? Your solution if any? Mine was not to hire and do everything myself and contract out to ICs what I absolutely can't do myself. I don't find 6% to be an unusual margin.


    You are right that does happen but it is also a sign of poor business health. That was the point of my post and it isn't the job of the government to protect a business that has a poor business model. Business that are poorly planned and run fail that is part of capitalism.

    Do I have a solution? No, I don't work in real estate services and don't have the expertise to offer one. Perhaps the fact that you are asking me is part of the problem. I would consult with someone who is actually successful in the field rather than someone on an RJ forum.

    I am not sure who you find 6% to be unusual for but I assume you mean within the industry of real estate services and that may or may no be the case. I looked but couldn't it isn't something that anyone breaks out. I assume the work falls under a cleaning services and general contractors both of which have higher profit margins that 6%. But again, this is in no way my area of expertise.

    In the example I mentioned here is how I did the math. I call this out just to make the point clear why I am saying it is the business model.

    For the cost of operations I used the median pay of the range that was mentioned. That is 12.5 an hour. This gives an operating cost of 3.9 million and then added the 240,000 that was going to wipe out the profit and came to 4.14 million in revenue (this is clearly low as it doesn't account for any fixed costs, or the owner's income as I assume they make more than the 10-15 dollars mentioned) and that comes to 5.79%. Given that the fixed costs will mean that the cost of operation and revue are both larger than what I accounted for that 5.79% is only going to go down. Sorry, but that is just not business model as I would assume the owner is in business to make money and not just get by.



    "You are right that does happen but it is also a sign of poor business health"

    That couldn't be more correct regarding both the residential and commercial side of this business in a down cycle, which happens every seven or eight years with the difference being that this down cycle lasted a very long time.


    If it is cyclical then you plan for it which gets back to the business being poorly run. The reality is that example given in the article is designed to make a point that the author has presupposed the answer to so he is begging the question.

    There really is that there simply isn't enough information given for us to understand the full impact on the cited business and it's owner. It also may or may not be poorly run, again there just isn't enough information.

    An example, I worked for a small private company that made a little over 10m a year and the profits was fairly slim with the profit margins being well under 6%. But, the owner paid himself a million a year so 10% of the costs of the company where a single person and when it came down to it he could cut his pay and cover costs if need be and still have a very comfortable income. Using just profit, the Affordable Healthcare Act would wipe out that company but in reality the cost would be covered and guy would have to make 850,000 dollars rather than a million (I think we were between 50-55 people). Clearly this isn't every company but I bring it up to point out there is a range in how any given company makes and manages money and simply looking at Affordable Healthcare costs v. Profit by no means gives you the full picture.