Mental anguish over circumcision?

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    Feb 15, 2013 4:27 PM GMT
    I'm going to start by saying that I'm not an active member on this site. I think this is a great site, but I'm not much of a social networker. I think that I qualify as a "troll" for creating this topic and I will accept that title.






    Has anyone else ever considered suicide because of circumcision? The practice of it? Your regrets from being circumcised? The industry of it? The bullshit religious reasons? The clamps? The Circumstraint? The scalpel? The psychological damage? The torture? The parental consent? The unfair exercise of power? The loss of fine touch nerve endings? The keratinization? The muscle at the end of the foreskin? The curiosity of what your foreskin would have looked like or felt like? The humiliation? The rape? The lies?

    Why aren't we, gay men, more collectively opposed to circumcision?

    (Edit: I don't believe in any kind of violence. I originally asked if anyone thinks about revenge, but I would never want for anyone to be hurt. It was a mistake to originally include that statement.)






    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PTtmOwqJF8 - this one is graphic

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-Lm396q8KA

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/101/6/e5.full.pdf+html

    http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm

    http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/1f21e.htm

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

    http://www.circumcision.org/brain.htm
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    Feb 15, 2013 4:47 PM GMT
    Intactivism. icon_lol.gif

    I discussed this on another forum, and there was a horrible nurse there who said that she had her sons clipped because it was HER CHOICE, because they were HER SONS and that babies do not cry when they have it done, and it is more hygienic, aesthetical and they should look like daddy and bla bla bla...

    What is rarely discussed is that the poor baby does not cry because he has gone into a state of shock, and is stunned into silence.

    The foreskin is then sold and Oprah smears it all over her bloated face.

    Then, there are disgusting physicians who have a circumcision fetish:

    http://www.circleaks.org/index.php?title=Circlist

    I live in the UK where circumcision is not the norm, and I am very glad of that. I understand that there is an anti-circumcision movement in the US, and that circumcisions are on the decline. icon_smile.gif



    We conducted a poll and the majority of circumcised men were against circumcision as a cultural norm.

    What I find most tragic is the way that men who have been circumcised then try to justify their mutilation.
  • Timbales

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    Feb 15, 2013 5:09 PM GMT
    I think I you are considering suicide, you should seek professional help immediately.
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    Feb 15, 2013 9:52 PM GMT
    GREAT....just what we need....ANOTHER, suicidal drama queen, trolling for the meaning of life and thinking it all revolves around what his dick looks like.... wow this get tired.icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Feb 15, 2013 10:50 PM GMT
    The OP is just one of a growing number of intactivists who are concerned about male genital mutilation.

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    Feb 16, 2013 3:00 PM GMT
    Fortis:

    This website, http://www.circleaks.org/index.php?title=Circlist, was informative and takes the prize as the most revolting that I've seen. Like a hole that gets deeper, circumcision gets more depraved. I believe this is a sex crime, so it's logical that some people get off on it. I can't stand that it happened to me.

    I am in contact with a few intactivists from the west coast. I wish I could move there to help their cause. My favorite website and intactivist:

    www.arclaw.org

    Again, why aren't a lot more gay men concerned with this? Why isn't the HRC concerned with this? If infant girls were treated this way, everyone, especially lesbians, would be up in arms.
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    Feb 16, 2013 3:10 PM GMT
    Sporty_g saidGREAT....just what we need....ANOTHER, suicidal drama queen, trolling for the meaning of life and thinking it all revolves around what his dick looks like.... wow this get tired.icon_rolleyes.gif




    People come in all flavors, even trolling, suicidal, drama queens who are caught up with how their dicks look and disabled, 50yo, 5'6", 230# guys who believe they are jocks. So, GREAT to that.
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    Feb 16, 2013 3:30 PM GMT
    Timbales saidI think I you are considering suicide, you should seek professional help immediately.



    Thanks for the concern. I say that genuinely. I'm not going to commit suicide.

    What would a doctor tell me if I did see them for this issue? That I shouldn't be obsessed with something that I think is criminal? That I should take drugs to forget my sense of right and wrong? I think doctors believe that I'm delusional or embellishing when I say that I believe my circumcision was rape with a knife. That's an impasse.

    I am convinced that rage and depression are stages for those of us who believe this is really wrong. I have spoken over the phone with a few other men who are self-proclaimed intactivists and one thing that is common is sort of an "aha" moment. It reminds me of when I came out of the closet and met other gay men. Most of the men who I have spoken with are in an acceptance or proactive stage. They have all told me that I should consider uncircumcising or stretching. In my mind, that's like telling a raped women to consider masturbation.

    I was hoping to find other circumcised men who are "freshly" upset by the issue.
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    Feb 16, 2013 3:56 PM GMT
    concernedgayman said
    Has anyone else ever considered suicide because of circumcision? The practice of it? Your regrets from being circumcised? The industry of it? The bullshit religion? The clamps? The Circumstraint? The scalpel? The psychological damage? The torture? The parental consent? The unfair exercise of power? The loss of fine touch nerve endings? The keratinization? The muscle at the end of the foreskin? The curiosity of what your foreskin would have looked like or felt like? The humiliation? The rape? The lies?

    Has anyone considered getting revenge?

    No and never.

    In fact, I am happy that my chances of contracting HIV and other diseases are diminished by circumcision. I am happy to never have smegma. Circumcision is one of the most commonly advocated public health initiatives in developing nations that are crippled by the AIDs epidemic. I know two families who were anti-circumcision who had to have their older sons circumcised (around age 2 when the trauma is quite visible) due to repeated infections of the foreskin, and...circumcision cured them.

    As an infant I had major surgery on my intestine, for which I had a large visible scar that took decades to disappear. The surgery saved my life. It was far more invasive in every way than my circumcision. I had NO lasting trauma or emotional distress at any point in my life from either of these infant surgeries. Just the opposite: I am grateful.
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    Feb 16, 2013 5:28 PM GMT
    concernedgayman saidI believe this is a sex crime, so it's logical that some people get off on it. I can't stand that it happened to me.

    I am in contact with a few intactivists from the west coast. I wish I could move there to help their cause. My favorite website and intactivist:

    www.arclaw.org

    Again, why aren't a lot more gay men concerned with this? Why isn't the HRC concerned with this? If infant girls were treated this way, everyone, especially lesbians, would be up in arms.


    I would imagine that the HRC is refusing to touch the matter because of religious sensitivities which they do not wish to offend. Have you written to them about this?

    There could be more of an overlap between gay rights and mens' rights activism in general, although that could be a difficult synthesis.

    I am really so sorry that you were mutilated so cruelly and callously. It is clearly an antiquated medical hoax, which some twisted people even have a fetish about...

    There have been some shocking threads on this forum asking about circumcision, even a thread inquiring as to where to go to have one performed (as an adult).

    I can only assume that this is an influence from US pornography. How life imitates art! icon_eek.gif

    Nivek said


    In fact, I am happy that my chances of contracting HIV and other diseases are diminished by circumcision. I am happy to never have smegma. Circumcision is one of the most commonly advocated public health initiatives in developing nations that are crippled by the AIDs epidemic. I know two families who were anti-circumcision who had to have their older sons circumcised (around age 2 when the trauma is quite visible) due to repeated infections of the foreskin, and...circumcision cured them.


    I was taught to wash myself. Did you know that babies do not cry when they are circumcised because they go into a state of total shock? Your circumcision was not your choice, and it was probably not at all necessary. Of course, you know no different.

    Wikipedia lists four non-surgical treatments for phimosis (non-retractable foreskin) and this looks to be by far the best:

    WikipediaStretching of the foreskin can be accomplished manually, with balloons or with other tools. Skin that is under tension expands by growing additional cells. A permanent increase in size occurs by gentle stretching over a period of time. The treatment is non-traumatic and non-destructive. Manual stretching may be carried out without the aid of a medical doctor. The tissue expansion promotes the growth of new skin cells to permanently expand the narrow preputial ring that prevents retraction. Beaugé treated several hundred adolescents by advising them to change their masturbation habits to closing their hand over their penis and moving it back and forth. Retraction of the foreskin was generally achieved after four weeks and he stated that he never had to refer one for surgery.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis#Management

    Rather this than Monster Mohel and Oprah's foreskin face cream...

    monster-mohel-card-front-325.jpgmonster-mohel-card-back-325.jpg


    http://www.foreskinman.com
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 16, 2013 5:39 PM GMT
    OP: while people may have rather divided opinions on this procedure, and I'm in the "anti" camp even though it was done on me due to cultural inertia at the time (my younger brother was not), the feelings that you are describing are extreme. Please consider counselling.
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    Feb 16, 2013 5:54 PM GMT
    No, OP, you are beyond troll.

    There are rational discussions to be had regarding the pros and cons of circumcision. By all means, have them. Many American children had circumcision at a time when medical opinion favored it. More and more families are opting out of it nowadays, as the medical community seems to have established some balance in the discussion.

    But the violence against yourself thing, the revenge thing, the holy war you sound like you're about to wage...should put you in the cross-hairs of the F.B.I. Circumcision didn't turn you into this; your problem sounds like it comes from your family medical history. Does your family have a history of schizophrenia? It's a serious question, and I mean it with all sincerity...consider seeing a professional and if the diagnosis fits, there is real treatment for this.

    In the meantime, close your eyes and work on your breathing. Dream of uncircumcised puppies & kittens. Er, ah, spay and neuter them, of course.
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    Feb 16, 2013 6:00 PM GMT
    I'm circumsized and I don't care sooooo....
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    Feb 16, 2013 6:01 PM GMT
    Wow, it's really not a big deal. I'm circumcised and very happy with it. But I love the look of uncut. Who cares?
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    Feb 16, 2013 6:04 PM GMT
    concernedgayman saidIn my mind, that's like telling a raped women to consider masturbation.
    The fact that you are comparing circumcision to rape is disgusting. They are nothing alike. Rape is an extremely serious issue that affects 1/3 women on the planet. Circumcision happens when you're a newborn and has nothing to do with sex, and most men who are circumcised don't give a shit that they are.
  • Bicuriouscool

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    Feb 16, 2013 6:16 PM GMT
    Get over it cock sucker, you couldnot have sucked your own cock, circumcised or otherwise. So find someone with a cock you fancy and suck it deep. Why throw such a tantrum over wanting a dirty oily penis, i believe circumcised looks clean and lless repellant
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    Feb 16, 2013 6:28 PM GMT
    McQueen said
    concernedgayman saidIn my mind, that's like telling a raped women to consider masturbation.
    The fact that you are comparing circumcision to rape is disgusting. They are nothing alike. Rape is an extremely serious issue that affects 1/3 women on the planet. Circumcision happens when you're a newborn and has nothing to do with sex, and most men who are circumcised don't give a shit that they are.


    Disgusting? I'd rather be anally or orally raped than have someone strap me to a table and cut off part of my penis without using any anesthetic.

    Nothing to do with sex? Look up the Gilgal society www.circleaks.org.
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    Feb 16, 2013 6:41 PM GMT
    mickeytopogigio saidNo, OP, you are beyond troll.

    But the violence against yourself thing, the revenge thing, the holy war you sound like you're about to wage...should put you in the cross-hairs of the F.B.I. Circumcision didn't turn you into this; your problem sounds like it comes from your family medical history. Does your family have a history of schizophrenia? It's a serious question, and I mean it with all sincerity...consider seeing a professional and if the diagnosis fits, there is real treatment for this.


    If I got into some kind of trouble for my posting, my opinion on why circumcision persists would only expand. Currently, I am not someone who believes this is a "top-down" problem. I do believe that opportunistic people profit from misinformation and ignorance regarding circumcision. Ask any doctor if they'd perform circumcisions for free. I notice that circumcision is far less common in societies with social medicine.
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    Feb 16, 2013 6:47 PM GMT
    Nivek said

    I know two families who were anti-circumcision who had to have their older sons circumcised (around age 2 when the trauma is quite visible) due to repeated infections of the foreskin, and...circumcision cured them.


    I imagine that your friends' sons were properly anesthetized at the age of two. Currently, anesthesia is only used about 45% of the time in the US (http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/101/6/e5.full.pdf+html). I learned after some research that I was not anesthetized.

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    Feb 16, 2013 7:10 PM GMT
    Fortis said

    monster-mohel-card-front-325.jpgmonster-mohel-card-back-325.jpg


    http://www.foreskinman.com

    Be careful with this image. It is anti-semitic and is one of the main reasons why the circumcision ban in San Francisco was shot down. The CA courts ruled that circumcisions, or medical procedures (if you can call it that), cannot be decided by city governments. Someone who was involved with that movement said that the major opponents were Jews who were offended by this comic.
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    Feb 16, 2013 7:49 PM GMT
    concernedgayman saidBe careful with this image. It is anti-semitic and is one of the main reasons why the circumcision ban in San Francisco was shot down. The CA courts ruled that circumcisions, or medical procedures (if you can call it that), cannot be decided by city governments. Someone who was involved with that movement said that the major opponents were Jews who were offended by this comic.


    This, I suspect, is entirely the problem. icon_idea.gif

    Circumcision is already part of established cultural practises in the US, and intactivism will offend many Jewish people who will view it as an encroachment.

    I looked into Foreskin Man and Monster Mohel, and the storyline did not seem anti-Jewish, just critical of Jewish circumcision.

    I understand why Jewish groups could be sensitive about the imagery because it resembles German National Socialist propaganda like this:

    tt0156524.jpg

    Nevertheless, we should be free to criticise Jewish circumcision. Is there any sort of alliance between those San Francisco intactivists and Jewish anti-circumcision groups? There has to be! icon_idea.gif

    Respectfully, I suggest that Jewish advocates for circumcision are just as much the enemy as those who are non-Jewish, and they should not be above reproach.

    Bicuriouscool saidGet over it cock sucker, you couldnot have sucked your own cock, circumcised or otherwise. So find someone with a cock you fancy and suck it deep. Why throw such a tantrum over wanting a dirty oily penis, i believe circumcised looks clean and lless repellant


    26066215.jpg

    icon_lol.gif
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    Feb 16, 2013 7:51 PM GMT
    Ok this whole thread is just wierd. Really wierd.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 16, 2013 7:51 PM GMT
    Ok this whole thread is just wierd. Really wierd.
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    Feb 16, 2013 7:54 PM GMT
    Fortis saidIs there any sort of alliance between those San Francisco intactivists and Jewish anti-circumcision groups? There has to be!



    http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

    A Letter from a Father to a Son

    September 17, 2005

    To my dear son Elijah,

    I write this letter to explain to you and my family & community why I choose not to perform a circumcision upon you. On your 8th day of life, I choose to have a Brit Shalom ceremony instead of a Brit Milah. The Brit Shalom ceremony is a ceremony acknowledging one's covenant with God without performing the ritual circumcision.

    As a Jewish boy I was circumcised according to tradition when I was 8 days old, but not by my choice. I am choosing not to circumcise you my son because after studying this important issue, I can find no compelling reason to do it, and in my heart I will not do it simply because tradition dictates it.

    The essence of the bris ceremony to me is that I want to make a covenant with God and you in my heart. The covenant I make with God is to commit myself to a spiritual life, to develop myself as a spiritual being, and that I will walk on this planet with a good heart. I am a Jew and I am proud of who I am. My son, I commit to raising you up as a spiritual being, and as a Jew. I will guide you to develop values of loving kindness. I will encourage you to develop as a spiritual being, and I will teach you about the importance of being considerate and respectful of all living beings. I will also encourage you to be self-reflective, and to explore the deeper meanings and mysteries of life, the hidden truths behind the veil. I believe you have come to this earth with a big mission for healing and touching others through your service.

    To fulfill this covenant, I do not need to perform a circumcision and mark you as a sign of this covenant. The covenant stands with or without the sign that by tradition mandates it. The sign is a sign and not the covenant itself.

    I intend to give you the opportunity to bar mitzvah when you are 13, and we will celebrate and honor the Shabbat, as well as other sacred Jewish rituals in our lives. We will learn about the power of restriction and extending help to others. We will learn about being a mench.

    Let me tell you my reasoning behind making this choice. There are many practices of olden days that were sanctioned by the torah that are no longer permitted today because we are more enlightened, such as: human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, and slavery. Other acts that were punishable by death include fornicating if you are female (yes only the females), homosexuality, and insulting one's parents. These traditions no longer exist.

    I suspect something has been misunderstood in the transmission of the circumcision ritual through the ages. I have read that in earlier times, only a sliver of the foreskin was removed. It was not completely cut as common practice until the second century CE. I do not know this for sure, but nothing is known for sure about this. Apparently the earliest versions of the Jewish bible tell the entire story of Abraham except the part about the covenant being sealed with circumcision. That comes later. There is mention that it was done for health reasons. I have heard that when the Jewish people lived in the desert long ago there was not much water, and that created a danger with regards to cleanliness. In this day and age that is not a compelling reason to circumcise you. I have also read that the circumcision is a mark upon us that marks us as different. Today in the United States, circumcision is the norm for all males, Jews and gentiles alike. Today, it is not a mark as a Jew.

    I believe that the act of circumcision would be a traumatic event for you my child. I believe that it would form an early record in your body of the trauma and would color and distort your perceptions throughout your life. I have heard it said that the pain is brief and easily recovered from. I don't believe this. I believe the circumcision will be a deep trauma for you, as you are such a highly sensitive being. I believe that you would begin experiencing life through the eyes of the trauma, feeling defended and contracted, moving with fear and distrust. I do believe that experiencing trauma is a part of life, and healing through trauma is a part of how we evolve as a species. I am choosing not to voluntarily offer this trauma to you when you are so young, so vulnerable and so trusting as you form the matrix of your life. I want you to experience life in these early days as trusting and feeling protected and safe. Traumas will come to you later and beyond my control, but I intend this to be after you have already experienced that you can trust your parents not to hurt you on purpose.

    I have come into this life charged to question the deeper purpose behind what I do. I will not circumcise you my son only because it is tradition. The reasons that I have been given supporting circumcision do not move me, they do not compel me to perform this ritual. Rather my concern for your well being is much greater.

    Modern medical science says that a circumcised male is more healthy than a male with an intact foreskin. Modern medical science also told us the tonsils were not important and took mine out. Now I understand the tonsils to be a very important part of my immune system, that I no longer have. The appendix is still considered a useless organ. I don't believe the creator gave us an appendix without reason. My understanding of today is that the appendix aids in finer digestion of our food. As regards to the foreskin, we have been told that it has no purpose. As I have read about the anatomy and physiology of the foreskin, actually it has many important functions. The foreskin is the most sensitive area of the penis, akin to the clitoris of a woman, and it also functions as a protective lubricating sheath for the penis.

    When I examined my own penis once I began studying this issue, I found that the area where I have a scar where the foreskin was, is still the most sensitive area of my penis, yet I know that scar tissue does not have the same sensation capacity as original tissue, nor the elasticity of the original. I have wondered what I would have been like without a circumcision, and I think I would have been better off without it. I want to give you the gift of choice.

    Many Jewish people today make choices about which Jewish laws and rituals they will follow or not follow. There is much discussion about these choices that we make- whether we will eat pork or not, will we keep separate dishes for dairy and meat dishes as we should not mix meat and dairy. Shall we keep kosher? Do we observe Shabbat? How closely do we follow the customs of observing all the restriction on certain holidays such as Yom Kippur. Of the many customs that are not adhered to in our times, the one that seems to be sacrosanct and unquestioned is the circumcision. Why is this ritual so primary to the Jewish identity?

    I forgo pork, I do not mix meat and cheese, I celebrate and honor Shabbat as a very special holiday each week where we light the candles each week and acknowledge our connection with spirit as a family. I especially revel in the New Year of Rosh Hashanah as a time of inner reflection, and I embrace the restrictions on Yom Kippur and the insights I gain through this process of fasting, forgiving and letting go of the past. At the time of Passover, I am fascinated by the meaning and relevancy of the story as it applies to my life today. I celebrate my spirituality in these ways and share them with my family. I declare that I identify myself proudly as a Jew and yet I am choosing to not circumcise you, my son. I will look into my heart and follow my gut.

    A passage I read by Ronald Goldman resonated with me, "A central purpose of J
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    Feb 16, 2013 8:01 PM GMT
    Continued from above:

    A passage I read by Ronald Goldman resonated with me, "A central purpose of Judaism is tikkun olam, repairing the world. Much of the pain in the world is a result of repeating old harmful patterns of behaviors. By breaking a chain of pain, forgoing circumcision contributes to our healing. As we heal from this pain, we will be better able to heal others and reach our ethical and spiritual potential."

    So my son, you can choose for yourself to be circumcised when you come of age if it is important to you. And yes, it will be much more physically painful at 13 to be circumcised, and it is a much longer recovery period than it would be as an infant, but I believe the psychological damage done to you at 8 days old would be much worse than the physical pain endured at 13, when it may be done by your choice.

    With love, your father, Gabriel