Grindr and Safe Sex, why not marry them ?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Feb 17, 2013 12:47 AM GMT
    Reading the thread http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/3022208 about HIV rise out of declining condom use, and the arguments about blaming porn, hookup web site etc, I really wonder....

    Is it possible for decline in condom use to result from poor knowledge in the new generation ?

    My generation (I'm 50yo) was spitted between paranoia and denial, the wast majority on the paranoid side. Because the science gave no clear answer, and there was no internet and, just a small detail, it was a death sentence at the time.
    For years, I didn't even accept to do oral, either way, without a condom, because nobody knew for sure what was the risk level.
    So we grew very eager of solid science finding to adjust our safe sex comfort zone accordingly.

    Today 'young' generation feel more, to me, grouped between paranoids, reasonable, and dumb ones who don't see it as a big deal (I'll call them dumbo).
    Dumbo knowledge about HIV and safe sex seems to come from dumbo peer advice far more than personal research.
    We could blame them for not acting like adult and look for all the available information on the topic, but it serve no purpose, they are in the dumbo group specially because they are the kind of person who look for reassurance instead of information.

    What if, as a community, we put pressure on the main hookup sites and app (like grindr), to have HIV and safe sex quiz mandatory to create an account ?

    I don't mean a pledge to use safe sex, that would be outrageous, I just mean a proof you know the basic facts.

    I mean, if you don't provide the correct answers, you can't create an account, period.

    Of course, very soon, every dumbo will learn the right answers by heart, and might not believe them but, at least, they will have been exposed to legit HIV knowledge.

    If it create animated flame wars about how legit or not the quiz is, all the better : it will be a debate about HIV and sex safe including the science side. If the bareback fan make a huge attack of the process, they will just end up diffusing more the information about safe sex.

    And hookup web site could see it as an opportunity to reduce their bad image. They would not lose membership, because guys eager to fuck will do anything to fuck.

    I just propose to use the urge to fuck to expose young gay guys to some basic facts about safe sex and HIV.
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    Feb 17, 2013 12:55 AM GMT
    Our moral responsibility is not to tell others what to do with their live, but it could be to make sure they are exposed to relevant legit information.
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    Feb 17, 2013 12:58 AM GMT


    Bump. I think it's a cool idea.
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    Feb 17, 2013 1:06 AM GMT
    The problem I see with ideas like this is trying to form a consensus on what is really safe(r) sex. Even the medical community seems to disagree. I was sternly lectured by a nurse in an STD clinic for not using a condom when I performed oral sex. The way she phrased it, unprotected oral sex was a high risk activity for contracting HIV. Other medical practitioners say that oral sex is an extremely low risk activity. How do we teach people when no one can agree?

    Another problem with this issue is that in these studies, people don't tell the truth about their sex lives. As has been discussed in other threads, people claim that they get HIV from oral sex, but then later admit that they had unprotected anal sex. It is a really horrible thing to do to lie about this because it creates mass confusion for everybody. Some people deal with this chaos by becoming paranoid. Others adopt the attitude that they'll probably get infected anyway, and they take needles risks. I think it's more complicated then putting a PSA on every gay web site.
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    Feb 17, 2013 1:15 AM GMT
    DudeInNOVA saidThe problem I see with ideas like this is trying to form a consensus on what is really safe(r) sex. Even the medical community seems to disagree. I was sternly lectured by a nurse in an STD clinic for not using a condom when I performed oral sex. The way she phrased it, unprotected oral sex was a high risk activity for contracting HIV. Other medical practitioners say that oral sex is an extremely low risk activity. How do we teach people when no one can agree?

    Another problem with this issue is that in these studies, people don't tell the truth about their sex lives. As has been discussed in other threads, people claim that they get HIV from oral sex, but then later admit that they had unprotected anal sex. It is a really horrible thing to do to lie about this because it creates mass confusion for everybody. Some people deal with this chaos by becoming paranoid. Others adopt the attitude that they'll probably get infected anyway, and they take needles risks. I think it's more complicated then putting a PSA on every gay web site.


    Yes it's complicated, like anything in medical science, but some very basic fact are just not known by a lot of people.
    I'm not speaking about becoming expert, I'm speaking about debunking dangerous ideas, like "it's safe to have sex without condom if both guys got tested recently".

    As for the oral part, it's a gray zone, may be I should not have mentioned my own choice about the question back then. It's theoretically possible, yet the statistical risk seems far lower than car accident, condom rupture, or getting syphilis.
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    Feb 17, 2013 1:17 AM GMT
    I agree. There should be a pop-up everytime you open grindr/manhunt about it. Facts about unprotected sex/HIV. It might actually help.



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    Feb 17, 2013 1:20 AM GMT
    Veni_Vidi_Vici saidI agree. There should be a pop-up everytime you open grindr/manhunt about it. Facts about unprotected sex/HIV. It might actually help.


    You have HIV info on most gay site. the pop up would be intrusive and give you every time the same info.

    I don't think right to brainwash people about what they should believe, I just propose to make sure they had the ability to check what they know about safe sex with some reasonable scientific findings.
  • great_scott

    Posts: 519

    Feb 17, 2013 1:21 AM GMT
    Just because people aren't having safe sex doesn't mean they don't know the info/risks. I think most guys do, regardless of age. I've seen some sites that have a banner on the homepage that will redirect you to CDC Q&As/risk assessment quizzes. It's nice to have up, but I don't think it does much, especially if there are bathhouses and BB porn titles advertised right next to it.
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    Feb 17, 2013 1:25 AM GMT
    Thousands of people pass their state driving test everyday, yet the same people blatantly ignore safe driving and traffic rules routinely. I doubt that knowing the answers to safe sex questions will actually translate to safe sex practices.
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    Feb 17, 2013 1:25 AM GMT
    minox said
    Veni_Vidi_Vici saidI agree. There should be a pop-up everytime you open grindr/manhunt about it. Facts about unprotected sex/HIV. It might actually help.


    You have HIV info on most gay site. the pop up would be intrusive and give you every time the same info.

    I don't think right to brainwash people about what they should believe, I just propose to make sure they had the ability to check what they know about safe sex with some reasonable scientific findings.


    I actually dont feel like this is brainwashing. When we buy cigarettes here theres always a warning of some sort on the package. Its not brainwashing, it's reminding you of what might kill you in the future. And since HIV doesn't have a cure at the moment, I think it would be appropriated.
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    Feb 17, 2013 1:25 AM GMT
    great_scott saidJust because people aren't having safe sex doesn't mean they don't know the info/risks. I think most guys do, regardless of age. I've seen some sites that have a banner on the homepage that will redirect you to CDC Q&As/risk assessment quizzes. It's nice to have up, but I don't think it does much, especially if there are bathhouses and BB porn titles advertised right next to it.


    Some guys don't want to know. They are afraid that if they know, they will have to stop doing some stuff, and they don't want that, so they prefer the doubt.

    As the thread I linked to point out, condom use might be declining, that doesn't fit right with he idea that most guys knows the info/risks.
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Feb 17, 2013 1:26 AM GMT
    The only ap I have is Hornet and it uses a KYS (Know Your Status) program. Granted, it doesn't offer the education you're attempting to address but it is a start. The KYS is shown in the profile... Of course one can lie about it but at least it puts the importance of knowing your own and your partner's status up front.

    See this article for more info.
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    Feb 17, 2013 1:29 AM GMT
    DOMINUS saidThousands of people pass their state driving test everyday, yet the same people blatantly ignore safe driving and traffic rules routinely. I doubt that knowing the answers to safe sex questions will actually translate to safe sex practices.


    The idea is not to stop bareback, and not to stop HIV.
    The idea is to give an opportunity to educate a subset of our community to information they actually never bothered/wanted to look for or think bout.

    As for the driving licence analog, it's not a bad one, and I reverse your argument : do you think road would be safer without driving test and quiz ?
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    Feb 17, 2013 1:31 AM GMT
    MikeW saidThe only ap I have is Hornet and it uses a KYS (Know Your Status) program. Granted, it doesn't offer the education you're attempting to address but it is a start. The KYS is shown in the profile... Of course one can lie about it but at least it puts the importance of knowing your own and your partner's status up front.

    See this article for more info.


    Thank the article was interesting, specially the part about status and privacy protection.
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    Feb 17, 2013 1:49 AM GMT
    So when is it ok to have unprotected sex? Can you really trust your partner to not cheat? So you are married for 20 years and still have to use a condom every time? Oh but the condom might break, so, just forget about sex and let's have an ice cream sundae instead.

    I'm sick of having to sacrifice so much just because I'm gay. Condoms suck! They hurt when they are inside me. They cause so much friction. We are men. We are born and bred to fuck. We take care of our bodies yet we can't even enjoy them fully.
    I'm not out having tons of unprotected sex. It has happened, yes. Sex is amazing without the condom.

    What are the rules of barebacking? Do you both have to abstain from sex for 8 weeks then get tested together? That brings me back to the trust issue. How can you really trust someone?

    We deal with so much hatred and stigma on a daiy basis and to make it worse we can't even FUCK!
    So, I understand the attitude, fuck it all, I'm gonna enjoy my life and my body and not wrap it up in some smelly rubber glove. If I die early, at least I had fun and got to actually enjoy sex.
    Notbsaying that's my attitude, but I understand it.
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    Feb 17, 2013 2:00 AM GMT
    timshel saidSo when is it ok to have unprotected sex? Can you really trust your partner to not cheat? So you are married for 20 years and still have to use a condom every time? Oh but the condom might break, so, just forget about sex and let's have an ice cream sundae instead.

    I'm sick of having to sacrifice so much just because I'm gay. Condoms suck! They hurt when they are inside me. They cause so much friction. We are men. We are born and bred to fuck. We take care of our bodies yet we can't even enjoy them fully.
    I'm not out having tons of unprotected sex. It has happened, yes. Sex is amazing without the condom.

    What are the rules of barebacking? Do you both have to abstain from sex for 8 weeks then get tested together? That brings me back to the trust issue. How can you really trust someone?

    We deal with so much hatred and stigma on a daiy basis and to make it worse we can't even FUCK!
    So, I understand the attitude, fuck it all, I'm gonna enjoy my life and my body and not wrap it up in some smelly rubber glove. If I die early, at least I had fun and got to actually enjoy sex.
    Notbsaying that's my attitude, but I understand it.


    I heard your point.
    My post is not about outlawing barebacking, it's about improving the general knowledge about safe sex. I'm not convinced, specially after reading numerous threads on here, that everybody know the basic facts.

    If two guys know each other HIV status, know if each other last test result is a good indication or not about real HIV status, and decide to have sex together, it's an informed decision.

    If two guys do bareback, knowing they've both have been tested negative, and think they are safe, but don't know that you can be positive yet tested negative if you test is too early after you last sexual exposure, it's no longer an informed decision.

    It's the second situation that could be addressed by better information.
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    Feb 17, 2013 2:08 AM GMT
    minox said
    timshel saidSo when is it ok to have unprotected sex? Can you really trust your partner to not cheat? So you are married for 20 years and still have to use a condom every time? Oh but the condom might break, so, just forget about sex and let's have an ice cream sundae instead.

    I'm sick of having to sacrifice so much just because I'm gay. Condoms suck! They hurt when they are inside me. They cause so much friction. We are men. We are born and bred to fuck. We take care of our bodies yet we can't even enjoy them fully.
    I'm not out having tons of unprotected sex. It has happened, yes. Sex is amazing without the condom.

    What are the rules of barebacking? Do you both have to abstain from sex for 8 weeks then get tested together? That brings me back to the trust issue. How can you really trust someone?

    We deal with so much hatred and stigma on a daiy basis and to make it worse we can't even FUCK!
    So, I understand the attitude, fuck it all, I'm gonna enjoy my life and my body and not wrap it up in some smelly rubber glove. If I die early, at least I had fun and got to actually enjoy sex.
    Notbsaying that's my attitude, but I understand it.


    I heard your point.
    My post is not about outlawing barebacking, it's about improving the general knowledge about safe sex. I'm not convinced, specially after reading numerous threads on here, that everybody know the basic facts.

    If two guys know each other HIV status, know if each other last test result is a good indication or not about real HIV status, and decide to have sex together, it's an informed decision.

    If two guys do bareback, knowing they've both have been tested negative, and think they are safe, but don't know that you can be positive yet tested negative if you test is too early after you last sexual exposure, it's no longer an informed decision.

    It's the second situation that could be addressed by better information.


    It takes up to 8 weeks for antibody problems due to HIV to show. You can never know your partners status unless you are glued to them for those 8 weeks and then get tested. He could be out banging someone else at week 4, then you bth get tested, have sex, then 4 weeks later finds out he has HIV, then you have HIV too, and you were responsible and did everything right.

    HIV and AIDs are going to be attached at the hip to the gay communty until there is an immunization.

    And the what about the other risks? I've heard elsewhere about things like anal cancer and other diseases occurring due to anal sex, but that culd have just been right wing propoganda.
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    Feb 17, 2013 2:09 AM GMT
    timshel saidSo when is it ok to have unprotected sex? Can you really trust your partner to not cheat? So you are married for 20 years and still have to use a condom every time? Oh but the condom might break, so, just forget about sex and let's have an ice cream sundae instead.

    I'm sick of having to sacrifice so much just because I'm gay. Condoms suck! They hurt when they are inside me. They cause so much friction. We are men. We are born and bred to fuck. We take care of our bodies yet we can't even enjoy them fully.
    I'm not out having tons of unprotected sex. It has happened, yes. Sex is amazing without the condom.

    What are the rules of barebacking? Do you both have to abstain from sex for 8 weeks then get tested together? That brings me back to the trust issue. How can you really trust someone?

    We deal with so much hatred and stigma on a daiy basis and to make it worse we can't even FUCK!
    So, I understand the attitude, fuck it all, I'm gonna enjoy my life and my body and not wrap it up in some smelly rubber glove. If I die early, at least I had fun and got to actually enjoy sex.
    Notbsaying that's my attitude, but I understand it.


    Can you explain to me how condoms hurt. I have never tried and don't understand this. It is a thin piece of latex. I think size of the penis is more an issue here, but, again I've never tried. Nor do I want to. I don't want anything in me unless it's covered up. I am OCD and glad to be. There is already so much "crap" going into my body from the pesticide-infested food we eat, why add more nonsense?
  • Buddha

    Posts: 1765

    Feb 17, 2013 2:12 AM GMT
    timshel said
    minox said
    timshel saidSo when is it ok to have unprotected sex? Can you really trust your partner to not cheat? So you are married for 20 years and still have to use a condom every time? Oh but the condom might break, so, just forget about sex and let's have an ice cream sundae instead.

    I'm sick of having to sacrifice so much just because I'm gay. Condoms suck! They hurt when they are inside me. They cause so much friction. We are men. We are born and bred to fuck. We take care of our bodies yet we can't even enjoy them fully.
    I'm not out having tons of unprotected sex. It has happened, yes. Sex is amazing without the condom.

    What are the rules of barebacking? Do you both have to abstain from sex for 8 weeks then get tested together? That brings me back to the trust issue. How can you really trust someone?

    We deal with so much hatred and stigma on a daiy basis and to make it worse we can't even FUCK!
    So, I understand the attitude, fuck it all, I'm gonna enjoy my life and my body and not wrap it up in some smelly rubber glove. If I die early, at least I had fun and got to actually enjoy sex.
    Notbsaying that's my attitude, but I understand it.


    I heard your point.
    My post is not about outlawing barebacking, it's about improving the general knowledge about safe sex. I'm not convinced, specially after reading numerous threads on here, that everybody know the basic facts.

    If two guys know each other HIV status, know if each other last test result is a good indication or not about real HIV status, and decide to have sex together, it's an informed decision.

    If two guys do bareback, knowing they've both have been tested negative, and think they are safe, but don't know that you can be positive yet tested negative if you test is too early after you last sexual exposure, it's no longer an informed decision.

    It's the second situation that could be addressed by better information.


    It takes up to 8 weeks for antibody problems due to HIV to show. You can never know your partners status unless you are glued to them for those 8 weeks and then get tested. He could be out banging someone else at week 4, then you bth get tested, have sex, then 4 weeks later finds out he has HIV, then you have HIV too, and you were responsible and did everything right.

    HIV and AIDs are going to be attached at the hip to the gay communty until there is an immunization.

    And the what about the other risks? I've heard elsewhere about things like anal cancer and other diseases occurring due to anal sex, but that culd have just been right wing propoganda.


    Just wanted to say that there nowadays are tests that also measure the actual HIV instead of the antibodies, making HIV detectable a lot earlier than before. These tests are however quite expensive and the standard ones still "just" measure the antibodies.
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    Feb 17, 2013 2:13 AM GMT
    A 22 y/o buddy of mine who I find to be rather informed and intelligent informed me that he was having anal sex with a guy without a condom.

    I was out of my wits!!!!

    Me: Wait, do you know the risk your putting yourself at.

    Him: Oh the guy I was with doesn't do much when it comes to sex anyway

    Me: How long have you known him.

    Him: About 1 month

    Me: How can you be so trusting

    Him: Well for all intents and purposes he's healthy

    What the overall gist of his response was that because this guy looked safe and didn't seem to be a very sexually active person he figured everything was good to go. He was clueless.

    This coming from an individual who stays well informed about current events, gay issues and so forth.

    The OP's suggestion is a GENIUS idea that can be so effective in educating about safe sex in a passive way.

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    Feb 17, 2013 2:24 AM GMT
    DOMINUS saidThousands of people pass their state driving test everyday, yet the same people blatantly ignore safe driving and traffic rules routinely. I doubt that knowing the answers to safe sex questions will actually translate to safe sex practices.


    This. Plus, apps like Grindr, Scruff, and the like aren't marketed as hook-up apps. They're marketed as gay location based social media apps. People use these apps for a number of reasons, and many of them do not include hooking-up; although that is a popular reason.

    It's not up to these sites to provide safe sex quizzes. It's a personal responsibility thing. We all know the risks. Some of us choose to ignore them. Having said that, it would be nice if they did safe sex promotions and education sessions. It shouldn't be a requirement, but it would be nice.
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    Feb 17, 2013 2:34 AM GMT
    redsoxfan791 said
    DOMINUS saidThousands of people pass their state driving test everyday, yet the same people blatantly ignore safe driving and traffic rules routinely. I doubt that knowing the answers to safe sex questions will actually translate to safe sex practices.


    This. Plus, apps like Grindr, Scruff, and the like aren't marketed as hook-up apps. They're marketed as gay location based social media apps. People use these apps for a number of reasons, and many of them do not include hooking-up; although that is a popular reason.

    It's not up to these sites to provide safe sex quizzes. It's a personal responsibility thing. We all know the risks. Some of us choose to ignore them. Having said that, it would be nice if they did safe sex promotions and education sessions. It shouldn't be a requirement, but it would be nice.


    I disagree.
    As I said earlier, I doubt suppressing driving test would increase road security, the argument doesn't stand.

    We don't all know the risk.
    If you think that 99.99 of sexually active gay men know the basic facts about safe sex, read again the many threads here, you may change your opinion.

    You think it's people fault if they don't look for objective information, but I don't think it exempt me for trying to provide that information when just that could safe some people life.



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    Feb 17, 2013 2:36 AM GMT
    ^^Its this. I remember many guys who tried to go bareback with me even though I handed them a condom. Its sad :-(
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    Feb 17, 2013 2:51 AM GMT
    Chainers said^^Its this. I remember many guys who tried to go bareback with me even though I handed them a condom. Its sad :-(

    +1 and I've refused because "he can't get it up / keep it up / enjoy himself" with a condom.
  • great_scott

    Posts: 519

    Feb 17, 2013 3:15 AM GMT
    minox said
    great_scott saidJust because people aren't having safe sex doesn't mean they don't know the info/risks. I think most guys do, regardless of age. I've seen some sites that have a banner on the homepage that will redirect you to CDC Q&As/risk assessment quizzes. It's nice to have up, but I don't think it does much, especially if there are bathhouses and BB porn titles advertised right next to it.


    Some guys don't want to know. They are afraid that if they know, they will have to stop doing some stuff, and they don't want that, so they prefer the doubt.

    As the thread I linked to point out, condom use might be declining, that doesn't fit right with he idea that most guys knows the info/risks.


    A risk is a chance, not a guarantee. Taking the chance doesn't mean they're unaware.