Building Lean Muscle and Mass too, complicated question...

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 02, 2007 12:46 PM GMT
    I had to lose 30 lbs for a surgery in January 07, after surgery putting the weight back on is most difficult for me, I am the type of person who at 51 years old has a very high metabolism and have only gained 8 lbs back as of September, I am 178lbs now, and have decided to work at the gym 5 days a week desperately working a Strengh Training program, due to the loss of weight I have about 1" of lose skin around my stomach now that is very embarrassing. being that I can't afford plastic surgery to get rid of this lose skin, I am thinking that if I Strength Train, and build my muscle mass up and widen out some, the skin will tighten, at least that is my hope, however I have been following a strict regiment of working out 5 times a week for about 2 hours a day, I work the machines ie; Chest Press, Fly, Lateral, biceps, triceps, Abdomial and some others I don't recall the names of at this time, the point is I have dedicated myself to doing this as a part of my life now and I have been with this program for almost 5 months now, and I don't see much change in my body, only just a little bit here and there, I feel better, but I though by now I would look a whole lot more defined than I do, I am not a well defined person, never have been, but I have been working really hard at this too, and I am dedicated to changing my body to look like something, maybe a little late for me now at my age but I want it seriously ...can anyone help me sort this out, and give me some guidance here, people at my gym don't talk much and don't give away any secrets, I do take Creatine daily for my muscle recovery but that's all I take other than vitamins....HELP?

    Thanks Buck
  • MSUBioNerd

    Posts: 1813

    Sep 02, 2007 3:09 PM GMT
    It is entirely possible that you are actually overtraining. If you're working out every day, hopefully you're doing your workouts as splits--one set of muscles one day, then a different set of muscles the next day. If you're working the same ones every day, they aren't getting a chance to recover--and it's during the rest and recovery phase that they actually get larger and stronger.

    8 pounds of muscle gain in 5 months is actually very rapid for a guy with a high metabolism. It took me around 18 months to get 15 pounds, and another 6 months to get another 5 or so pounds. I know a number of naturally thin guys whose weight gain has been along the same lines as mine.

    Unfortunately, it really does take time.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11648

    Sep 03, 2007 10:19 AM GMT
    You're working out to gain back some weight
    you want it to be lean muscle
    and you want it to take up some of the loose skin around your midsection?

    Well first of all gaining muscle mass will take sometime...if you've lost alot to illness
    once you're better the body will quickly put on the weight it lost
    but to go beyond that initial you've found you've got to work for it
    The loose skin is going to be another problem though
    as you workout the weight is going to be distributed in different areas and more likely there will be more loose skin rather than less at your midsection
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    Sep 03, 2007 11:22 AM GMT
    OK first off lose skin your primary problem, drastic weightloss often causes this issue. Your answer lies in hydration not surgery too many people turn to the knie way too easy for a quick fix.

    yes as we get older the skin loses its elasticity but even at your, not so gran old age it hasnt givn up on its repair process. 2 litres a day is basic hydration get it up to 4 and you are well on your way to recovery.

    Creatine, now was that reccomended for health reasons? Im assuming if it was the surgery was some sort of transplant? If not after surgery when the body is going through repair do you really want to be placing undue stresses on the vital organs like that, ditch it if not medical as the ebenefit it does offer even in the greatest report is minimal.

    OK metabolism and adding weight. You say you have a high metabolism so maintaining excess calories to build muscle is going to be an issue. So training 5 days a week is going to burn more calories and yet you are not allowing the body time to repair and build, which then if you take into the account the age fctor is really going to compound against you. You are going to be consuming vast quantities to achieve unless you cut back.

    How long are your sesions? What do they consist of? I hope you are starting with a major compound that really employs the legs? All that growth hormone in such a large muscle will benefit the whole body not just the lower half.

    So put up your training plan and eating plan and lets se what and how you are going about it and what changes yuo can make to make your body work for you
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    Sep 03, 2007 11:53 AM GMT
    Buck, I agree with the other posters.

    1) you are overtraining.

    2) your use of creatine, while helpful for workouts, has absolutely nothing to do with muscle recovery.

    3) your assertion that you have a high metabolism is not supported by the evidence of your physique.

    If working with a trainer who is experience with men in our age group (I'm 55) is not an option, you need to arm yourself with good, solid information.

    I've sent you an email with a resource for you to explore.

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    Sep 03, 2007 12:17 PM GMT
    Big Joey trying to understand what you me about a trainer that would be suitable for his age

    whilst age is a factor it is by no means a limiting factor to any method of training its the supporting processes it impacts on ie sleep/diet/hydration
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    Sep 03, 2007 2:05 PM GMT
    bfg - nuance is everthing. I didn't say "suitable for his age", I said "experience [sic] with men in our age group".

    Aging does bring about changes in the body which should be accomdated in training. If you train a person who is 40, 50, 60 as you would train someone in his teens or 20's, you could cause serious injury.

    Tendons are less elastic, joints are less hydrated and have more wear, protein synthesis is slower, and there are other factors as well - conditions which frequently accompany aging. Too many to list.

    I'm not suggesting that his trainer needs to be 50+, or any particular age. But I strongly content that he (or she) needs to be well versed in the changes that occur with age, and how to accomodate those changes.
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    Sep 03, 2007 2:06 PM GMT
    And for some reason I can't type for shit at this time of the morning.... :)
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    Sep 05, 2007 3:20 PM GMT
    Howdy Guy’s;
    Wow! I do appreciate all yawl’s input on my issue, I never figured anyone would give a hoot about this old guy.

    Joey; I guess I am over training and I know that, however the reason I am doing this is mostly because, after 16 weeks of doing it like the fitness trainer said, I didn’t notice any difference, I was told when I started at my Fitness Gym by the personal trainer that gave me one session to mostly show me on how to adjust and use the equipment,and he said that I should use Creatine, because it helps hydrate the muscles, and helps recovery of the worked muscles, I use ‘Creatine Hardcore Powder’ from Vitamin World, I don’t know if yawl have them out there, they are like GNC but allot cheaper.
    I was told that if I stuck to the workout he gave me, that in 16 weeks I would have good noticeable change, and after the 16 weeks I haven’t noticed very much change at all, and at first I started working out 3 times a week, M,W & F, and all I noticed was; I have added some weight to my workout’s and I do feel better, I love the gym, but most people there that obviously are gym hounds, don’t want to give up much information.
    So in lieu of the 3 day a week workout not working out, I started to come to the gym every day of the week and take off Sat, and Sun.

    My workout consist of all machines no free weights;..this is in order of my workout, starting with... Vertical Chest Press.....Pec Fly...Rear Delt Pec Fly......Lateral Raise....Lateral Pull Down.....Bicep Curl...Tricep Extension ......Abdominal
    ....Seated Leg Curl....And Leg Extension....

    I do all of these in the order given, and I do 4 rounds of all the machines and 4 sets each of 10 to 12 reps per set, with the exception of the Abdominal and I do 4 sets of 150lbs and 35 to 40 reps per set......
    I’ve been doing this routine for about a month now...

    Listen I never claim to know anything about what I am doing here, most of all the web information is so misleading and everyone’s site seems to have all the answers, that doesn’t include what info I have been receiving from you all here, I’m talking about the web-site’s that want to sell you their personal workout programs for money, just because it worked for them doesn’t mean it’s gonna work out for me Right? I’m a disabled veteran I don’t have money to spend on those web-site’s.

    Just for reference I have included a few new pictures that I took with my web-cam this morning, sorry about the quality of them.....Thanks guy’s, I will appreciate yawl's information.

    Happy Trails.......Love Buck
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    Sep 12, 2007 11:23 AM GMT
    I see that as the lamest excuse by a trainer ever given to pimp some supps. Google creatine yourself and read up and make your own impression as we all have our own viewpoints, personaly at your stage of the game I see it as not a worthwile investment.

    Wasnt a criticism Big Joey more of a qustion and I suppose the answer lies in the level of ability of the trainee ie how much they have done in the past as I know 50 year olds that do the same routine as me with no injury and respond well as the effort level put in is all relative.

    Id stick a major compound like a dead or a squat at the start of that routine straight away, but then again I wouldnt do 4 sets, yuo say its ahrd to regain where you were but then 4 sets thats an awful lot of exercise and in turn calorie expenditure for what your goal is.
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    Sep 17, 2007 1:12 PM GMT
    Howdy bfg1; Thanks for your input, I have reduced my workout's to 3 times a week now, and I am looking to divide my workout's between upper and lower, as far as the Creatine is concerned, it only costs me about $10.00 dollars for a 40 to 50 day supply, I really can't say with any degree of accuracy whether it is working to my benefit or not, it's really hard for me to evaluate myself on that account, I just reserve myself to think that I wouldn't want to miss out on anything good because of a technicality.

    All I know is; I am really reserved to the fact that since I've dedicated myself to this working out thing, I really like it allot, I really like working hard at my workout's, and feel like if I don't work extremely hard every time I am cheating myself.
    One point of confusion for me is this, I like to do allot of rep's and set's, I like the working of my muscles over and over again during each set with a lighter amount of weight, rather than working only a fewer amount of set's with a heavier amount of weight....are there any thoughts as to what the results would be from one or the other above plans of attack? or is there any noticable benefits from one or the other plans? or should I concentrate on one or the other at time time....Thanks ..Happy Trails....Buck
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    Sep 17, 2007 1:23 PM GMT

    1) You are nowhere near ready for a split routine, in my opinion.

    2) Lifting below 65% of your capability is unlikely to trigger a growth response. In simpler terms, a weight you can handle in good form for more than 15 reps is NOT going to build muscle.

    Liking how something feels is an incredibly poor indicator of its effectiveness.

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    Sep 18, 2007 1:00 PM GMT
    Howdy Joey; Ok I heard that, the reason I was considering split workout's was because I had received some information regarding the amount of machines I was working with per workout period or per workout, the person said it was to many per workout, and I should consider spliting my workout's so I could concentrate more on each group of muscles.

    As one may figure out by now I am slow to make changes in what I am doing until I hear from the associates out there that know for sure what may be the best for me, and by the way Thanks...

    The one thing I am having an issue with is this; How does one gage or understand what amount of weight is considered adaquate to be lifting for my given Height, Weight and Frame or Physical Structure. in other words how do I know if the amount of weight I am lifting is even enough weight?

    Is there some reference or unit of measurements that let's say a trainer looks at when first working with a person, that say's; At your weight and height and build you should be at least lifting a given amount of weight?
    Is it correct to assume there's a Minimum amount of weight I should be working with?

    I am kind of working with the idea of what you said Joey; Work with an amount of weight where you can lift or pull 10 to 12 rep's with good form, of course first starting out my workout with a slightly less weight to warm up first would that be the measurement I am looking for?
    And does that include all muscle groups? and or Machines that I work with? I mean use that gage for everything?

    Thanks...Happy Trails...Love Buck
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    Sep 18, 2007 7:31 PM GMT
    First off I would never use solely machines and I would never use solely free weights both have their place. The only benefit of machines over free weights is if you havent had good instruction as lifting free weights unsupervised can be damaging.

    I myself dont buy into all the multi sets workouts but I use them occasionaly to alleviate boredom.

    Re the splits, save it until you are ready for that. I would always start from full bodies, by all means favour one body area on different days ie chest and legs and back or arms but Id even break that down more so Im can concentrate on working to failure so I would balance it out with upper and lower intermixed and push and pull.

    Hit me up with your email address and I will send you a 3-5 month plan and nutritional guide that you can tailor to your tastes to accompany it partialy linked to a thread elsewhere).

    The technicality at the moment is the training not the supplementation, maybe even your diet, far too many turn to shite like creatine as a panacea I just dont get it myself but then again I have strong views on it.

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    Sep 18, 2007 7:35 PM GMT
    The one thing I am having an issue with is this; How does one gage or understand what amount of weight is considered adaquate to be lifting for my given Height, Weight and Frame or Physical Structure. in other words how do I know if the amount of weight I am lifting is even enough weight?

    i dont see how any of those things are relevant. Progression is key not a number on a weight as thats just testosterone driven ego and there are way too many other variables to take into account.

    Personaly I know my abilities I look at the weight and add 10%. I know if I have got it right when: if I go for 6 reps at 5/5 cadence if I cant do it, then I went to heavy, if I can do more than 8 I have to keep going to failure and that tells me how much of a slack arse I have been.