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Just curious if the great number of personal trainers/CMT/medical guys here have opinions on using Glucosamine chondroitin as a way of staving off joint issues.

I've been using it for a couple of years...and, frankly, can't tell if it is helping. My doc, who does believe in some non-traditional treatments, says that there is mixed evidence that this stuff helps at all.

Any thoughts from anyone who either has used it and/or professionals who might have an opinion will be greatly appreciated.

John

I tried it and it did nothing for me. MSM, however, seems to work very well.

Thanks, OW. What is MSM?

It's often combined with glucosamine-chondoritin. I have no idea why it, alone, seems to work (and rapidly) for me. I've heard the same thing from others about the g/c.

Maybe it's like cranio-sacral therapy. :D

http://www.glucosamine-arthritis.org/glucosamine/MSM.html

I've been trying it for about 9 months, (it's cheap, at costco) but can't really tell if there are any effects. The studies I've found are pretty inconclusive and poorly designed. But my knees went to hell when I was 17, I'll grasp at little straws.

Sorry, I was referring to the glucosamine, not the MSM, although in fact, I am using the stuff that contains both.
BTW: I find that link about MSM to be a bunch of chemically-illiterate babble. (sorry.) Interestingly, MSM is very similar (though less polar) than a compound that is commonly used to inhibit archaea. No archaea are known to be human pathogens, except for some controversial scanadanivan research that implicates them in kidney stones. (Personally, I find it unconvincing, and I have shared beer with the authors.)
BTW: Another weird undocumented observation. DMSO (another related compound) is purified from pulp mill waste. My brother's company (hard hat divers) were somehow talked into diving in the waste ponds that fed the original DMSO distillery. (The dopes.) Not only did it dissolve their suits, but some of them developed arthritis-like symptoms, temporarily.

Conclusion: maybe there's something going on there, but nobody really knows what it is.

I didn't even read it. It was the first site to come up when I googled.

Here's one with more babble, including lots of cited research that likely has nothing to do with anything:

http://www.msmguide.com/index.html

All I can say is that my sister took it (college soccer player) to relieve her knees, and it helped her significantly.

Really OW, and here I thought you actually read the articles and only passed on the good ones!

I thought it raised your blood pressure.

I already knew there weren't reliable studies on MSM. If it's a placebo, it's a very good one for me; it works amazingly quickly -- and I don't even take the high dose they recommend. It's magic.

I read a report of a study the other day that said vitamin supplementation is a waste of money and swallowing too. But I'm still taking my one-a-day.

I've tried Glucosamine-Chondritin off and on for several years and have come to the conclusion that it really doesn't do much, at least for me. My knee problem (secondary to years of running 50+ miles per week for years) really did not improve significantly until I started taking Diclofenac (prescription only), a mild NSAID, then I dropped the G-C and did not notice any difference at all.

/www.drugs.com/pdr/diclofenac-sodium.html>

I've used G-C for a few years now, because I was getting aches in the backs of my hands. Being a part-time weave, it was a real problem. The G-C really seemed to help, and that was confirmed for me when I decided to stop using it for a while to see what would happen. Sure enough, the ache returned.

Now I have a touch of arthritis in the big toe of my left foot, and get relief with accupuncture and Fish Oil. In a few more weeks, when I have been using the fish oil for a while, I will once again cut out the G-C to see if the fish oil alone helps with the pain relief. But so far, I am happy with the entire combination!

Fast,

I just started taking Fast Flex by GNC 2 weeks ago. It is a combination pack of 5 pills twice a day. I will let you know. It had white willow bark in the combination and said it would help speed the relief. My ex was into nutrition alot more than me, she recommended a combination. We'll see. (30 day regimine.)

Mike

Also I don't think it is a quick fix thing- Look at how long your joints took to get burnt out. I would imagine it would take some time to repair as well.

MSM= Methylsulfonylmethane organic sulfur.

Hope it works!

I use Triflex by GNC - has done wonders for me.

My bf uses a supplement that is glucosamine & chondroitin with msm and he says it's really worked for him. His knees are really wrecked and used to get up with them all stiff every morning. It took about 2 weeks for it to really kick in.

Thanks all for your opinions. I am now off Glucosamine Chondroitin and am trying MSM. I'll let you know.

Right now, I can't tell, because I fell while running on trails and twisted my left knee pretty badly, ending up with a mild/moderate sprain. It's coming back slowly. After all is well there, I'll be able to tell if the MSM is doing anything.

John

Here are some tips on MSM: it's is a lot cheaper when purchased in bulk powder form. However, the stuff is extremely bitter tasting. And, after mixing it in everything from pure maple syrup to applesauce, I finally found the perfect mixer for it. Water. One teaspoon of MSM dissolved in one quart of water has no bitter taste.

My boyfriend had very good results with glucosamine and chondrontin. He had arthritis so bad in one finger that the tip of his finger was bent. After about 6 months on the combo, his finger totally straightened out.

I believe studies have shown that it works to relieve joint pain if applied topically but it's inconclusive as a dietary supplement.

Here's my own point of view. Highly subjective, but it's true that I have perceived a sense of more elasticity in my joints since I went on MSM. This was not true with glucosamine chondroitin.

Since I am still recovering from knee issues related to a fall that I had on a trail run, it's still too soon to report how this is affecting my running.

But my subjective impression is: Yes on MSM; No on Glucosamine Chondroitin.

John

Fast- I have been taking Fast Flex by GNC since 8/20/07. I do feel less stiffness when I run and workout. I found MSM cream by Source Naturals as well. I just started tonight so not sure about it yet. I will continue on Fast Flex or Tri Flex and see if it continues to help.

mike3

Just an update on this: I'm closing in on the bottom of my second Costco bottle of this stuff, which ought to mean I've been using it for about 500 days.

For the last few weeks, I've been noticing a definite improvement in my knees. Going deep on knee movements, my face keeps getting ready to wince, but the pain doesn't come! Maybe a little ordinary muscle stiffness, but not much arthritis pain so far this winter.

It might be due to the glucosamine, or it might have something to do with doing a lot more road work this summer, than in recent years.

I guess I'll buy another bottle.

Hi Guys,
I've been taking GC for about 4 years now. No conclusive evidence that it works, BUT I do have some faith in it. I am 53, and run about 15 miles a week. I do squats and other leg exercises that stress the knees. I get tight hamstrings and calves because of all that, but I have yet to experience any joint or knee pain. So I keep it up.

The best product that I have found for joint pain is Biotest Flameout (and NO it will not cure homosexuality, as the name implies). It is a specially formulated fish oil product for men that reduces inflammation. I've been using it for awhile now and my knee pain is gone! You can get it online at www.t-nation.com. And I don't even get a commission for pushing the stuff, so it must be good.

I have arthritis in my left foot, a consequence of years of running in combat boots, I think. I tried GC for about two years and then went off of it. Sorry to say that I did not notice any difference at all.

I have a tendency toward patellar tendonitis in my right knee, and chondromalacia in the left. Both are manageable with occasional breaks (2-4 weeks) from high intensity activity, lots of quality stretching, careful attention paid to quad/ham/glut balancing, and light plyometrics. Still, wouldn't it be nice to take a pill and have the problems biochemagically disappear? So, because of constant anecdotal support by friends, family, and workout/sport buddies, I have over the last several years tried G-C supplements at different times. Not only did I never detect any significant improvement in symptoms, but I had to try a few different brands until I found one that didn't make me vomit.

Yes, vomit.

I would take my G-C supplement with a reasonable meal and plenty of fluids... and 5-10 minutes later throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. I checked contents for impurities and additives, and couldn't find any constant ingredient in the ones that caused the reaction. But considering how expensive the stuff is, I got tired of giving my friends the bottle with the remaining 59 capsules. For a while I was pretty popular with the other rehabbing athletes in my circle, though.

At 47, I was racked with Tendonitis in the wrist, elbow and shoulder of the right arm and could barely shake hands.
After being diagnosed withe severe tendonitis by doctors who recommended long and expensive therapy with prescription drugs (anti -inflamatories and others) I went to this old Hippie kind of Chinese medicine practitioner, kinethesiologist and Chiropractor.

He told me to take fish oil and the C/G mix and gave me an elbow brace. I settled on the ones with MSN as well.
It took 5 years, but ALL the problems disappeared and I still take it everyday. I stopped for a few months and started to get the joint pain again so went on it again.

At 62 now and very active competing in volleyball, my knees and ankles get a bit sore but otherwise OK.

In our volleyball club, many players have reported similar problems and about 3/4 ths of then report good results.... apparently it works for most but not people.... not sure why.

G/C saved my grandmother from 2 knee replacements. She's out dancing again. Do it. It's cheap and available everywhere... you've got nothing to lose.

Many studies show that the chondroitin (sp? sorry) acts as a catalyst to help your body turn the glucosamine into something useful... but more recent studies show that it's not necessary.

Seriously... try it. It works-- maybe not for everyone, but no supplement or medicine works for everyone.

I read a collection of recent double blind studies of several theraputic items that were purported to have prophylactic effects including Glucosamine/Chondroitin for joints, Selenium for prostate, and a few others. None of the studies were done on 'holistic' or herbal remedies, only the ones were there was some previous validated scientific data on.

In the two that I mentioned above (I didn't read the others) they said there was no significant improvement in the preventative intents of the drugs. However, they also concluded that results indicated that further studies ought to be done for more conclusive data. I'll try to find the reference since the report was within the last year by (I believe) a University hospital study. I remembered the results but not the size of the sample (it had to have been in the hundreds or I'd have dismissed the information).

It was public information, so it ought to be searchable.

I take both C/G with MSM due to arthritis, and Selenium due to family history.

Most hilarious/infuriating is the fact that I can't seem to keep this wonder drug down long enough to help me with my pain, but the GC/MSM supplements I give to my 9.5 year old dog have done wonders for her vitality and mobility. It's like turning the clock back three years.

I recently trained for and completed a marathon. About 1.5 months prior to the race, I was experiencing the irritating Runner's Knee syndrome. This caused me to feel slight pain in the kneecap area for 3-4 days after every run longer than 10 miles. Then I experimented with GC/MSM pills and after long runs (including the final 26.2 miler), my knee does not bother me at all! I personally believe this stuff worked well to lubricate my knee joints, so I will continue using them whenever I train for other marathons in the future. Just my 2 cents.

It is so strange how for some people it is life-changing and they swear by it, including my mother, while for others, like me, none of G,C, or MSM does anything.

Joint pain can have many different causes, and people have different genetics. It would be nice if a test could be developed to determine if these supplements will work for you before you spend your money on them for six months.

Glucosamine/chondroitin Arthritis Intervention Trial (GAIT) funded by the National Institute of Health and coordinated by University of Utah results are now available.

2 of 4 key results are listed below

1 For a subset of participants with moderate-to-severe pain, glucosamine combined with chondroitin sulfate provided statistically significant pain relief compared with placebo—about 79 percent had a 20 percent or greater reduction in pain versus about 54 percent for placebo. According to the researchers, because of the small size of this subgroup these findings should be considered preliminary and need to be confirmed in further studies.

2 For participants in the mild pain subset, glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate together or alone did not provide statistically significant pain relief

Recommendation
Should people with osteoarthritis use glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate?

People with osteoarthritis should work with their health care provider to develop a comprehensive plan for managing their arthritis pain: eat right, exercise, lose excess weight, and use proven pain medications. If people have moderate-to-severe pain, they should talk with their health care provider about whether glucosamine plus chondroitin sulfate is an appropriate treatment option.

http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/gait/qa.htm#12

I used to live in CA and Oregon. Prior to that move i started hiking again in hawaii and west texas. i would get excruciating joint pain in one of my knees. in CA same would happen. It would never happen on a first hike but if i did like a hike a day for 2 or 3 days the second or third the pain would kick in. Was aweful. Well - I saw on Oprah one day that glucosamine worked on joints. So, I started taking it. I never took the 3 pills a day or whatever they say - just one. But it worked like a wonder cure. A couple of months after I started taking them - i hiked 35 miles in two days in Yosemite and i never had an ounce of pain. I would swear by it.