Update: Fall of France - Sky-high taxes and overprotective labor laws drive out best and brightest

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    Mar 24, 2013 4:21 AM GMT
    France Drops 75% Tax on Rich

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324103504578376643295957304.html?mod=world_newsreel

    The notion of slapping a 75% marginal tax rate on those earning over €1 million ($1.3 million) a year has been on shaky ground ever since the country's top constitutional authority shot it down in late December on the grounds that applying it to individuals and not households was illegal. The ruling came as a political blow to Mr. Hollande, who had vowed to make the tax a key plank of his platform that called for greater fiscal justice.

    Dropping the tax plan is the latest challenge for the Socialist president, who is struggling to revive France's stalled economy, with unemployment above 10% and rising. Mr. Hollande acknowledged earlier this month that he would not lower France's budget deficit to 3% of annual output this year, another key economic pledge, instead projecting a wider shortfall of around 3.7%.

    This week, Budget Minister Jerôme Cahuzac stepped down after prosecutors launched a formal investigation into allegations of money laundering and tax evasion against him, dealing another blow to the president, who vowed during his campaign to run an "exemplary republic."
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    Jan 06, 2014 5:59 PM GMT
    Note that the things that Hollande has done are things that those like metta8 would advocate be done in the US. Hasn't worked out so well for them.

    http://www.newsweek.com/fall-france-225368

    But the past two years have seen a steady, noticeable decline in France. There is a grayness that the heavy hand of socialism casts. It is increasingly difficult to start a small business when you cannot fire useless employees and hire fresh new talent. Like the Huguenots, young graduates see no future and plan their escape to London.

    The official unemployment figure is more than 3 million; unofficially it’s more like 5 million. The cost of everyday living is astronomical. Paris now beats London as one of the world’s most expensive cities. A half liter of milk in Paris, for instance, costs nearly $4 – the price of a gallon in an American store.

    Part of this is the fault of the suffocating nanny state. Ten years ago this week, I left my home in London for a new life in Paris. Having married a Frenchman and expecting our child, I was happily trading in my flat in Notting Hill for one on the Luxembourg Gardens.

    At that time, prices were such that I could trade a gritty but charming single-girl London flat for a broken-down family apartment in the center of Paris. Then prices began to steadily climb. With the end of the reign of Gaullist (conservative) Nicolas Sarkozy (the French hated his flashy bling-bling approach) the French ushered in the rotund, staid Hollande.

    Almost immediately, taxes began to rise.
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    Jan 07, 2014 1:25 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 saidFrance is a basket case.


    It's bizarre how the left here want to emulate her mistakes... I can only imagine that they believe her problems are just some big right wing conspiracy.
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    Jan 07, 2014 1:53 AM GMT
    riddler78 said
    southbeach1500 saidFrance is a basket case.


    It's bizarre how the left here want to emulate her mistakes... I can only imagine that they believe her problems are just some big right wing conspiracy.

    An old thread that shows the similarity of Obama to Hollande.

    http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/2350545
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    Jan 07, 2014 2:22 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    riddler78 said
    southbeach1500 saidFrance is a basket case.


    It's bizarre how the left here want to emulate her mistakes... I can only imagine that they believe her problems are just some big right wing conspiracy.


    It's all about their misguided "good intentions."


    Except I wonder if it's even that... they talk about good intentions but what they do even better at is crony capitalism and rewarding all their little friends while trying to accumulate power.
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    Jan 07, 2014 9:25 AM GMT
    pellaz saidthis thread is a year old and France is still with us


    The article wasn't about how France would disappear. The original post was about how France was backing off its attempts to regressively tax its most productive.
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    Jan 07, 2014 10:34 AM GMT
    Er... yes, this will work....

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=260133910

    Goodyear has tried to shutter the plant in Amiens for five years without success. Its latest attempt was met Monday with a "boss-napping" — a French negotiating tactic that had largely faded away after the height of the economic crisis in 2009.

    More theatre than actual threat, it aims to grab management's attention — by grabbing management. Late Monday, one of the prisoners decried the tactic as degrading and humiliating.

    The Amiens plant has an especially contentious past. Goodyear's hopes to close it have been thwarted by violent protests with huge bonfires, government concerns and France's prolonged layoff procedures. Now, the union is willing to accept the inevitable loss of jobs — but at a cost.

    "Clearly it was no longer possible to keep fighting for our jobs," Mickael Wamen, the union president, told LCI television. "So we decided to change tactics and fight for the largest compensation possible."

    In exchange for freeing the bosses, they're demanding an 80,000-euro ($108,000 US) severance package plus 2,500 euros ($3,400 US) for each year worked.
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    Jan 07, 2014 1:17 PM GMT
    Does Immigration Mean ‘France Is Over’?
    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/does-immigration-mean-france-is-over/?_r=1&

    It is difficult to go more than a day in France without hearing someone express the conviction that the greatest problem in the country is its ethnic minorities, that the presence of immigrants compromises the identity of France itself. This conviction is typically expressed without any acknowledgment of the country’s historical responsibility as a colonial power for the presence of former colonial subjects in metropolitan France, nor with any willingness to recognize that France will be ethnically diverse from here on out, and that it’s the responsibility of the French as much as of the immigrants to make this work.
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    Jan 07, 2014 4:36 PM GMT
    riddler78 saidDoes Immigration Mean ‘France Is Over’?
    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/does-immigration-mean-france-is-over/?_r=1&

    It is difficult to go more than a day in France without hearing someone express the conviction that the greatest problem in the country is its ethnic minorities, that the presence of immigrants compromises the identity of France itself. This conviction is typically expressed without any acknowledgment of the country’s historical responsibility as a colonial power for the presence of former colonial subjects in metropolitan France, nor with any willingness to recognize that France will be ethnically diverse from here on out, and that it’s the responsibility of the French as much as of the immigrants to make this work.


    That's a bit carricatural. Only a minority of people think like that. Most of the people know that France was built BY immigration. Actually the Francs people, who gave their name to the country came from a part that is now in Germany. France has always been a crossroads between Northern and Southern Europe and immigration has always happened.
    The problem is more about people taking advantage of the social services, ruining the country (and those people are not all immigrants, and not all poor)
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    Jan 07, 2014 5:08 PM GMT
    Isugemi said
    That's a bit carricatural. Only a minority of people think like that. Most of the people know that France was built BY immigration. Actually the Francs people, who gave their name to the country came from a part that is now in Germany. France has always been a crossroads between Northern and Southern Europe and immigration has always happened.
    The problem is more about people taking advantage of the social services, ruining the country (and those people are not all immigrants, and not all poor)

    You may not be aware of this, but dumping on France is a favorite pastime of right-wing morons here. For some reason, the French really really irritate them. That's one of the (many) reasons I love France. Also, I've been to France many times and have had nothing but terrific experiences there. The only people who were rude to me were some very wealthy colonials---a family that owned coffee plantations in Cameroon but lived half the year in France. They were French, but they treated everyone the way they treated their plantation employees. Other than that, though, the French people I met were charming.
  • topathlete

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    Jan 07, 2014 5:34 PM GMT
    Aristoshark said
    Isugemi said
    That's a bit carricatural. Only a minority of people think like that. Most of the people know that France was built BY immigration. Actually the Francs people, who gave their name to the country came from a part that is now in Germany. France has always been a crossroads between Northern and Southern Europe and immigration has always happened.
    The problem is more about people taking advantage of the social services, ruining the country (and those people are not all immigrants, and not all poor)

    You may not be aware of this, but dumping on France is a favorite pastime of right-wing morons here. For some reason, the French really really irritate them. That's one of the (many) reasons I love France. Also, I've been to France many times and have had nothing but terrific experiences there. The only people who were rude to me were some very wealthy colonials---a family that owned coffee plantations in Cameroon but lived half the year in France. They were French, but they treated everyone the way they treated their plantation employees. Other than that, though, the French people I met were charming.

    Actually most of the right-wingers I read admire France for taking a leadership role and having balls given the leadership vacuum that the US has exhibited. France was the adult with Libya for starters and when Obama went begging Iran to talk to him pleading for a deal even a bad one for the West. France was also the adult in the room when Obama wimped out on that red line in Syria. Big talk no action. Many had a renewed admiration for France seeing they had what the US sorely lacked.
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    Jan 07, 2014 5:52 PM GMT
    "Leadership vacuum", lol
    Yeah, we had one, but it ended when Chimpy went back to his ranch and pretended to clear brush.
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    Jan 07, 2014 5:56 PM GMT
    Riddy has been merrily anticipating the fall of Europe since the beginning of the banking crisis. Of course, the European recovery is still fragile, but most of Europe is heading in the right direction.

    France and Italy are effectively flat. Minus-0.1percent is not all that statistically meaningful. Neither are Spain and Portugal, at plus-0.1 percent and 0.2 percent respectively. But this is an enormous improvement from when these countries were in economic free-fall, with double-digit contractions in employment and gross domestic product.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Jan 07, 2014 6:29 PM GMT
    If you ever want to discern Riddler's political motivations, follow the dirtiest money trail you can find. Riddler tips his hat to any political party that denies MMGW, whether they are democratic, communist or socialist. He's all about the multinationals who waste resources and pollute in the name of progress. He has no interest in the environment, labor force, healthcare accessibility, etc. His obsession with US healthcare is just a ploy to defame Obama and bolster the TEA party, not because he cares about the future of the American people, or any people, but because they are the highest concentration of batshit crazy climate change deniers he can find.
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    Jan 07, 2014 7:41 PM GMT
    HottJoe saidIf you ever want to discern Riddler's political motivations, follow the dirtiest money trail you can find. Riddler tips his hat to any political party that denies MMGW, whether they are democratic, communist or socialist. He's all about the multinationals who waste resources and pollute in the name of progress. He has no interest in the environment, labor force, healthcare accessibility, etc. His obsession with US healthcare is just a ploy to defame Obama and bolster the TEA party, not because he cares about the future of the American people, or any people, but because they are the highest concentration of batshit crazy climate change deniers he can find.

    That's only part of it.
    He has allied himself deliberately with the worst sort of people on the planet becsuse it's his natural home, being one of them. And also because he's freakin' stupid.
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    Jan 07, 2014 8:36 PM GMT
    Isugemi said
    riddler78 saidDoes Immigration Mean ‘France Is Over’?
    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/does-immigration-mean-france-is-over/?_r=1&

    It is difficult to go more than a day in France without hearing someone express the conviction that the greatest problem in the country is its ethnic minorities, that the presence of immigrants compromises the identity of France itself. This conviction is typically expressed without any acknowledgment of the country’s historical responsibility as a colonial power for the presence of former colonial subjects in metropolitan France, nor with any willingness to recognize that France will be ethnically diverse from here on out, and that it’s the responsibility of the French as much as of the immigrants to make this work.


    That's a bit carricatural. Only a minority of people think like that. Most of the people know that France was built BY immigration. Actually the Francs people, who gave their name to the country came from a part that is now in Germany. France has always been a crossroads between Northern and Southern Europe and immigration has always happened.
    The problem is more about people taking advantage of the social services, ruining the country (and those people are not all immigrants, and not all poor)


    I don't doubt that immigrants are being scapegoated - though on the other side of it, the problems with the banlieues and the lack of assimilation is also no secret. France's colonial past/present as part of their foreign policy hasn't helped.
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    Jan 07, 2014 8:41 PM GMT
    woodsmen said
    Ex_Mil8 saidRiddy has been merrily anticipating the fall of Europe since the beginning of the banking crisis. Of course, the European recovery is still fragile, but most of Europe is heading in the right direction.

    France and Italy are effectively flat. Minus-0.1percent is not all that statistically meaningful. Neither are Spain and Portugal, at plus-0.1 percent and 0.2 percent respectively. But this is an enormous improvement from when these countries were in economic free-fall, with double-digit contractions in employment and gross domestic product.


    The reason for this contraction and fragile recovery as explained in multiple articles by the NYT was the execution of conservatives' theory of austerity.


    Yep, Europe is definitely sustainable with structural reforms and all the problems have really just been caused by austerity and not the fact they've been running out of money... It's become farcical the extents some liberals attempt to deny reality. But carrying on - let's see how long spending other people's money they don't have lasts.
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    Jan 07, 2014 8:41 PM GMT
    Aristoshark said
    HottJoe saidIf you ever want to discern Riddler's political motivations, follow the dirtiest money trail you can find. Riddler tips his hat to any political party that denies MMGW, whether they are democratic, communist or socialist. He's all about the multinationals who waste resources and pollute in the name of progress. He has no interest in the environment, labor force, healthcare accessibility, etc. His obsession with US healthcare is just a ploy to defame Obama and bolster the TEA party, not because he cares about the future of the American people, or any people, but because they are the highest concentration of batshit crazy climate change deniers he can find.

    That's only part of it.
    He has allied himself deliberately with the worst sort of people on the planet becsuse it's his natural home, being one of them. And also because he's freakin' stupid.


    Oh the ladies doth protest too much... methinks. It's too bad you both have shown that you're more interested in making up what the other guy thinks then well, actually making coherent arguments. Enjoy your hysteria Joe - and enjoy your loneliness Aristoshark icon_razz.gif
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    Jan 07, 2014 8:49 PM GMT
    woodsmen said
    riddler78 said
    woodsmen said
    Ex_Mil8 saidRiddy has been merrily anticipating the fall of Europe since the beginning of the banking crisis. Of course, the European recovery is still fragile, but most of Europe is heading in the right direction.

    France and Italy are effectively flat. Minus-0.1percent is not all that statistically meaningful. Neither are Spain and Portugal, at plus-0.1 percent and 0.2 percent respectively. But this is an enormous improvement from when these countries were in economic free-fall, with double-digit contractions in employment and gross domestic product.


    The reason for this contraction and fragile recovery as explained in multiple articles by the NYT was the execution of conservatives' theory of austerity.


    Yep, Europe is definitely sustainable with structural reforms and all the problems have really just been caused by austerity and not the fact they've been running out of money... It's become farcical the extents some liberals attempt to deny reality. But carrying on - let's see how long spending other people's money they don't have lasts.


    Fundamentally misapprehension of economic understanding. Your expense is someone's income. When everyone fears, they don't spend leading to contraction and possible depression. According to Keynes, public spending for a time resuscitates a weak hearted economy.


    You fundamentally do not understand how the economy works and how value is created. When governments spend value is generally destroyed. In the private sector when services are acquired they are based on a demand/need. It's why the economy expands - because of the cumulative increase in value being created (the value above the cost of the inputs of goods and services). It's why the economy can keep growing and it's not a fixed pie.

    Fear can cause contraction - but that can be very legitimate when governments spend money that don't produce a return and in turn cannot be repaid. Perhaps you should try lending all your money to Greece. The money has to come from somewhere. As for Keynes - much of what gets lost in his views was that while spending to resuscitate the economy was advocated, infrastructure spending was specifically not, and he also advocated savings during good economic times - which did not happen in Europe or many countries for that matter. Again, that's what made it unsustainable.
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    Jan 07, 2014 8:59 PM GMT
    woodsmen saidI don't see the resuscitation of the automobile industry in the US by the government means its destruction.


    If by resuscitation you mean temporary bailout for political allies, and you mean resources that could have been more efficiently spent elsewhere, you would still be missing the point. Have the cost structures of those firms bailed out been fixed? Who owns Chrysler now? GM continues to lose market share. And what of the billions lost in the bailout for an industry that isn't even growing?
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    Jan 07, 2014 9:03 PM GMT
    riddler78 saidWhen governments spend value is generally destroyed.

    This is by far the stupidest thing you've ever said on RJ.
    It's demonstrable nonsense, but you're too dumb to figure that out. It is, however, right-wing gospel these days.

    It's a wonder your brain puts out enough energy to permit your autonomic processes.
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    Jan 07, 2014 9:07 PM GMT
    woodsmen said
    riddler78 said
    woodsmen saidI don't see the resuscitation of the automobile industry in the US by the government means its destruction.


    If by resuscitation you mean temporary bailout for political allies, and you mean resources that could have been more efficiently spent elsewhere, you would still be missing the point. Have the cost structures of those firms bailed out been fixed? Who owns Chrysler now? GM continues to lose market share. And what of the billions lost in the bailout for an industry that isn't even growing?


    What you say are not facts.


    fact: US government officially lost 10.5 billion dollars in auto bailout - http://www.nbcnews.com/business/auto-bailout-saved-1-5-million-jobs-study-2D11716261

    This doesn't include how the funds could have been spent more efficiently elsewhere.

    fact: the auto bailouts were changed to rescue the auto unions: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303768104577462650268680454 "If the administration treated the UAW in the manner required by bankruptcy law, it could have saved U.S. taxpayers $26.5 billion."

    fact: Fiat has bought Chrysler http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2014/01/02/fiat-shares-jump-on-chrysler-merger-deal-but-worries-remain/

    fact: the original need for the bailouts was a structural issue on costs - http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98643230 - other than the bailouts, how has this changed?

    Maybe it's time to familiarize yourself with the facts.
  • HottJoe

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    Jan 07, 2014 9:08 PM GMT
    Riddler78 When governments spend value is generally destroyed.

    Especially when they give subsidies to gas and oil.icon_idea.gif
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    Jan 07, 2014 9:08 PM GMT
    Aristoshark said
    riddler78 saidWhen governments spend value is generally destroyed.

    This is by far the stupidest thing you've ever said on RJ.
    It's demonstrable nonsense, but you're too dumb to figure that out. It is, however, right-wing gospel these days.

    It's a wonder your brain puts out enough energy to permit your autonomic processes.
    Thank you wise one for again reinforcing the fact you know little of economics or finance. icon_wink.gif
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    Jan 07, 2014 9:08 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    Riddler78 When governments spend value is generally destroyed.

    Especially when they give subsidies to gas and oil.icon_idea.gif
    And I've pointed out that I disagree subsidies should be given - but they also tax far more.