Palm Sunday: Jewish Messiah #1 Starts a Revolution

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    Mar 24, 2013 1:10 PM GMT
    Simon bar Kokhba was recognized by the Jewish world's greatest rabbi, Akiva, as the messiah. A messiah liberates--or starts a major revolt for Jewish independence.

    Some have written that the story of Jesus is Roman propaganda under its censorship against messianic upstarts to the effect that the messiah who tried to liberate Jews from under Roman rule in 67-70 AD was Jesus pushed back in history by 40 years.

    The people were excited on Palm Sunday because of hopes of liberation.

    Now, if Jesus was doing this in 30 or 33 Common Era, he would be a little messiah because big messiahs create major military action, at least on the scale of the American war for independence against Britain.
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    Mar 24, 2013 6:13 PM GMT
    StephenOABC said
    Now, if Jesus was doing this in 30 or 33 Common Era, he would be a little messiah because big messiahs create major military action, at least on the scale of the American war for independence against Britain.


    Propaganda much?.. icon_eek.gif
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    Mar 24, 2013 6:18 PM GMT
    Jesus claimed to be a different kind of messiah. hence render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.
  • TroyAthlete

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    Mar 24, 2013 6:26 PM GMT
    StephenOABC saidA messiah liberates--or starts a major revolt for Jewish independence.


    That's exactly what Jesus of Nazareth did, except on a larger scale because he did it for Jews AND Gentiles especially the sickest, youngest, oldest, and most vulnerable among them. The idea that the poor man is equal to rich man and the slave is equal to or better than his master, that complacency is immoral and one is morally obligated to actively seek to better the lives of others, that the weak are better than the strong, that one should love and forgive their enemies -- it sounds routine now but this stuff was unheard of. And it laid the foundation for the Enlightenment and for the current worldwide embrace of more liberty and freedom, for equality, for basic rights available to ALL regardless of the circumstances of their birth. It is impossible to quantify.

    Jesus's followers in subsequent centuries have not measured up and in many cases have ended up undermining what this little Hebrew dude stood for, but there is nothing in Simon bar Kokhba's repertoire that even comes close to having the impact of the words and deeds of Jesus as delineated in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

    Simon is a nice little cult figure, but as a revolutionary Jesus pretty much stands alone in world history, with pretty much only Muhammad having a CLAIM of equal impact.
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    Mar 24, 2013 6:32 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    StephenOABC saidA messiah liberates--or starts a major revolt for Jewish independence.


    His followers in subsequent centuries have not measured up and in many cases have ended up undermining what this little Hebrew dude stood for, but there is nothing in Simon bar Kokhba's repertoire that even comes close to having the impact of the words and deeds of Jesus as delineated in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
    .


    Two quick points: First since the average height then was about 5 feet, Jesus WAS a little Hebrew dude. Second not one of the Gospels, not Matthew, not Mark, not Luke, not John, actually met Jesus.
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    Mar 24, 2013 6:37 PM GMT
    swimguychicago saidJesus claimed to be a different kind of messiah. hence render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.


    and unto Bally's what is Bally's, and MGM what is MGM's, and ...
  • TroyAthlete

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    Mar 24, 2013 6:43 PM GMT
    swimguychicago said
    TroyAthlete said
    StephenOABC saidA messiah liberates--or starts a major revolt for Jewish independence.


    His followers in subsequent centuries have not measured up and in many cases have ended up undermining what this little Hebrew dude stood for, but there is nothing in Simon bar Kokhba's repertoire that even comes close to having the impact of the words and deeds of Jesus as delineated in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
    .


    Two quick points: First since the average height then was about 5 feet, Jesus WAS a little Hebrew dude. Second not one of the Gospels, not Matthew, not Mark, not Luke, not John, actually met Jesus.


    Yeah, I knew he was little...that's why I wrote he was little. A little scruffy guy with curly hair and darkish skin...not like the movies. What a great dude.

    I'm not sure about your second point. It's common knowledge, but I don't know if it's meant to prove anything or if it is just an interesting tidbit of information. Carl Sandburg never met Lincoln but there is no doubt his bigography of Lincoln forever changed how the world viewed him and secured Lincoln's legacy as the greatest of all time. *shrug*
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    Mar 25, 2013 1:31 AM GMT
    StephenOABC

    A messiah liberates--or starts a major revolt for Jewish independence.

    Troy Athlete
    His followers in subsequent centuries have not measured up and in many cases have ended up undermining what this little Hebrew dude stood for,

    but there is nothing in Simon bar Kokhba's repertoire that even comes close to having the impact of the words and deeds of Jesus as delineated in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

    StephenOABC

    Simon did not start an ecumenical movement in Judaism or on top of Judaism. We would be somewhat hard-pressed to say that Jesus wanted what Paul wanted. I'm not so sure Paul would have wanted his Jesus movement to use the Torah as their sacred scripture given his focus on faith over law.

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    Mar 25, 2013 1:32 AM GMT
    Second, Simon bar Kokhba was not mythologized and spiritualized the way Jesus was. Jesus was an Age of Aries transitioning into the Age of Pisces figure, Simon bar Kokhba was not.
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    Mar 25, 2013 2:49 AM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    StephenOABC saidA messiah liberates--or starts a major revolt for Jewish independence.


    That's exactly what Jesus of Nazareth did, except on a larger scale because he did it for Jews AND Gentiles especially the sickest, youngest, oldest, and most vulnerable among them. The idea that the poor man is equal to rich man and the slave is equal to or better than his master, that complacency is immoral and one is morally obligated to actively seek to better the lives of others, that the weak are better than the strong, that one should love and forgive their enemies -- it sounds routine now but this stuff was unheard of. And it laid the foundation for the Enlightenment and for the current worldwide embrace of more liberty and freedom, for equality, for basic rights available to ALL regardless of the circumstances of their birth. It is impossible to quantify.

    Jesus's followers in subsequent centuries have not measured up and in many cases have ended up undermining what this little Hebrew dude stood for, but there is nothing in Simon bar Kokhba's repertoire that even comes close to having the impact of the words and deeds of Jesus as delineated in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

    Simon is a nice little cult figure, but as a revolutionary Jesus pretty much stands alone in world history, with pretty much only Muhammad having a CLAIM of equal impact.


    wonderfully articulated, TroyAthlete! +1

    PS - Matthew and John were with Jesus
  • TroyAthlete

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    Mar 25, 2013 4:29 PM GMT
    StephenOABC saidSecond, Simon bar Kokhba was not mythologized and spiritualized the way Jesus was.


    For the same reason Luke Walton is not mythologized and idolized the way Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is. One of these things is not like the other.
  • TroyAthlete

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    Mar 25, 2013 4:30 PM GMT
    believeitornot said
    wonderfully articulated, TroyAthlete! +1

    PS - Matthew and John were with Jesus


    Thank you. And thank you for clarifying.
  • MikeW

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    Mar 25, 2013 4:47 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete said... Jesus pretty much stands alone in world history, with pretty much only Muhammad having a CLAIM of equal impact.

    I like what you've written a lot. All very true but I think the Buddha is worth at least a mention.
  • TroyAthlete

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    Mar 25, 2013 5:05 PM GMT
    MikeW said
    TroyAthlete said... Jesus pretty much stands alone in world history, with pretty much only Muhammad having a CLAIM of equal impact.

    I like what you've written a lot. All very true but I think the Buddha is worth at least a mention.


    I thought about it, and Buddhism is certainly practiced everywhere, I'm not sure the impact of his philosphy has spread globally into areas beyond his teaching, in the same way that Judeo-Christianity and to a lesser extent Islam have influenced political, social, economic thought. Then again, that's sort of by design, as Buddhism is not evangelical.

    This is unfortunate, because if Buddhism had the kind of impact it could have, I think we'd have a more peaceful and serene planet.
  • Rowing_Ant

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    Mar 25, 2013 5:11 PM GMT
    Well quite! Perhaps we would have a peaceful serene planet also if the Christianity taught by Jesus was adopted rather than the Pauline version!
  • TroyAthlete

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    Mar 25, 2013 5:26 PM GMT
    Rowing_Ant saidWell quite! Perhaps we would have a peaceful serene planet also if the Christianity taught by Jesus was adopted rather than the Pauline version!


    You're right, but even then human nature would prevail. Neither pure Jesus-like lifetsyles nor Buddhism would not solve the world's ills unless you could force everyone to buy in, which we cannot do and should not want to do.

    The world would actually be less peaceful (less free and equal) without Pauline Christianity, despite what atheists want to think. But obviously, if religions were practiced without all the selfish ego and my-way or the highway evangelism included things would be better though not perfect because humans are human. We can't help but to fuck up even the best intentioned things.
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    Mar 25, 2013 5:40 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    StephenOABC saidA messiah liberates--or starts a major revolt for Jewish independence.


    That's exactly what Jesus of Nazareth did, except on a larger scale because he did it for Jews AND Gentiles especially the sickest, youngest, oldest, and most vulnerable among them. The idea that the poor man is equal to rich man and the slave is equal to or better than his master, that complacency is immoral and one is morally obligated to actively seek to better the lives of others, that the weak are better than the strong, that one should love and forgive their enemies -- it sounds routine now but this stuff was unheard of. And it laid the foundation for the Enlightenment and for the current worldwide embrace of more liberty and freedom, for equality, for basic rights available to ALL regardless of the circumstances of their birth. It is impossible to quantify.

    Jesus's followers in subsequent centuries have not measured up and in many cases have ended up undermining what this little Hebrew dude stood for, but there is nothing in Simon bar Kokhba's repertoire that even comes close to having the impact of the words and deeds of Jesus as delineated in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

    Simon is a nice little cult figure, but as a revolutionary Jesus pretty much stands alone in world history, with pretty much only Muhammad having a CLAIM of equal impact.


    The independence Jesus brought was from the tyranny of sin and death not from any earthy oppressors such as the Romans or any other of the enemies of the Jews. Jesus knew the Jewish people were expecting such a messiah that would liberate them from the Romans and he rejected that role. That wasn't his mission.

    Also, too many people reduce Jesus and his mission to just a social worker and social work. He definitely wasn't that either.
  • MikeW

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    Mar 25, 2013 5:42 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    MikeW said
    TroyAthlete said... Jesus pretty much stands alone in world history, with pretty much only Muhammad having a CLAIM of equal impact.

    I like what you've written a lot. All very true but I think the Buddha is worth at least a mention.


    I thought about it, and Buddhism is certainly practiced everywhere, I'm not sure the impact of his philosphy has spread globally into areas beyond his teaching, in the same way that Judeo-Christianity and to a lesser extent Islam have influenced political, social, economic thought. Then again, that's sort of by design, as Buddhism is not evangelical.

    This is unfortunate, because if Buddhism had the kind of impact it could have, I think we'd have a more peaceful and serene planet.

    Yeah, very true. I think Buddhists make up about 1/6 of the global population. It is complicated, too, because although Buddhism is practiced as a religion it can also be practiced as a transformational philosophy without 'spiritual' trappings.

    Are you familiar with Jiddu Krishnamurti? He is an example of a historically recent world teacher of the calibre of a Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha. For him "The Real Revolution" is not social but something that begins within ourselves, through the transcendence of thought (and all that emanates from it) and the transformation of the individual. Like you say about Buddhism, it is not an evangelical movement, quite the contrary, and consequently will probably never receive wide interest or attention. "Transformation" isn't something that interests most people who simply want to be told by some "authority" how to live, what to believe and not.
  • Rowing_Ant

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    Mar 25, 2013 6:02 PM GMT
    I totally agree, MikeW.

    Jesus never told people what to believe or how to think, merely how to behave, above all, how to love.

    Alas, people rather like to be told what to do especially if makes you feal "special" (them and us if you will) or as you described it MikeW, "Authority" vs "Transformation".
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    Mar 25, 2013 7:06 PM GMT
    believeitornot said
    TroyAthlete said
    StephenOABC saidA messiah liberates--or starts a major revolt for Jewish independence.


    That's exactly what Jesus of Nazareth did, except on a larger scale because he did it for Jews AND Gentiles especially the sickest, youngest, oldest, and most vulnerable among them. The idea that the poor man is equal to rich man and the slave is equal to or better than his master, that complacency is immoral and one is morally obligated to actively seek to better the lives of others, that the weak are better than the strong, that one should love and forgive their enemies -- it sounds routine now but this stuff was unheard of. And it laid the foundation for the Enlightenment and for the current worldwide embrace of more liberty and freedom, for equality, for basic rights available to ALL regardless of the circumstances of their birth. It is impossible to quantify.

    Jesus's followers in subsequent centuries have not measured up and in many cases have ended up undermining what this little Hebrew dude stood for, but there is nothing in Simon bar Kokhba's repertoire that even comes close to having the impact of the words and deeds of Jesus as delineated in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

    Simon is a nice little cult figure, but as a revolutionary Jesus pretty much stands alone in world history, with pretty much only Muhammad having a CLAIM of equal impact.


    wonderfully articulated, TroyAthlete! +1

    PS - Matthew and John were with Jesus


    I suggest you read some of the writings of Bart Ehrman, Josephus, the Babylonian Talmud and Ralph Ellis before you take too much stock in what is in the gospels.

    The Jesus platform has dangerous pitfalls.

    #1 - He started a Son of Man movement. You really need to know exactly what that entails and how bad Jesus FAILED at manifesting the Son of Man movement.

    #2 - He said his Son of Man movement would succeed before people in his lifetime died. Didn't happen. Didn't happen before he died, didn't happen after the resurrection, didn't happen after the ascension.

    #3 - Jesus has an unsatisfactory and insufficient patriarchal notion of God. First, there is no feminine component in a father notion of god, no matter how good a single male parent can be. Second, that same father made him go to a Roman cross. Third, that god could not establish a king or an empire and he got his temple torn down and his People defeated in less than 135 years of Jesus, the gift. It can be argued that the God notion of Moses rose to the height of the unified kingdom of David and Solomon. The qualification to that is David and Solomon are quite Egyptian in the mark they left in history.
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    Mar 25, 2013 7:21 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan:

    The independence Jesus brought was from the tyranny of sin and death not from any earthy oppressors such as the Romans or any other of the enemies of the Jews.


    StephenOABC:

    If Jesus was not to succeed in liberating the Jews from the Romans, he is not a Jewish Messiah and he shouldn't have paraded himself down the Mount of Olives in the manner of a political messiah and a Son of Man.

    So, we have Roman occupation.
    Jesus knew the Temple would be torn down? He prophesied that it would be destroyed?

    God lets the Romans capture Jesus.
    God lets the Romans discontinue Jewish kings.
    God lets the Romans defeat the Jews in a war for independence.
    God lets the Romans destroy the temple.
    God lets the Romans move the Jews out of Jerusalem.
    God lets the Romans defeat the Jews in a war for independence a second time and the closest Jews can return to the area is Galilee where the "Jerusalem" Talmud takes form.
    God lets Roman Christianity succeed but Jewish/Nazarene Christianity fail.

    Jesus did not save us from the tyranny of sin.
    Jesus did not save us from the tyranny of death.

    Explain what you mean by these two statements.
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    Mar 25, 2013 7:29 PM GMT
    Rowing_Ant saidI totally agree, MikeW.

    Jesus never told people what to believe or how to think, merely how to behave, above all, how to love.



    You are not telling the truth.

    Jesus did tell people what to believe and what to think. He told them to change their notion of God from what the Hebrew Bible taught to one of a loving father. Second, Jesus said to believe in the one who sent him.

    As for telling people how to think: he told them how to pray.
  • TroyAthlete

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    Mar 26, 2013 4:14 AM GMT
    UndercoverMan saidAlso, too many people reduce Jesus and his mission to just a social worker and social work. He definitely wasn't that either.


    He wasn't ONLY that, you mean?
  • TroyAthlete

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    Mar 26, 2013 4:14 AM GMT
    MikeW said
    Are you familiar with Jiddu Krishnamurti? He is an example of a historically recent world teacher of the calibre of a Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha. For him "The Real Revolution" is not social but something that begins within ourselves, through the transcendence of thought (and all that emanates from it) and the transformation of the individual.


    Thank you, I'll look this up.
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    Mar 26, 2013 2:04 PM GMT
    UndercoverMan said
    Also, too many people reduce Jesus and his mission to just a social worker and social work. He definitely wasn't that either.


    He wasn't ONLY that, you mean?

    = = = = =

    Correct: He was not only a social worker. He was a liberator. He wanted Jews liberated from Rome. He had thousands of people in his lifetime and billions of people saying since "thy kingdom come ... on earth as it is in heaven."

    Pilate asks him, "Are you king?" Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

    Where is it? In heaven. My kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven.

    Pilate probably thought, "Jesus, do you think I don't have the facts on you? Wrong answer. Your kingdom is in heaven and in your head: you're plotting a kingdom to replace Rome. For the Our Father prayer ALONE, you're guilty for starting a revolt against Rome, and yet another Passover riot. You're guilty."

    This is all right there in the Bible. Even Jesus fortells the Son of Man will be crucified by Rome, not stoned by Jews.

    The Jews were in a Babylonian exile. Later they were under Seleucid rule. They got a messiah in the story of the Maccabes. And guess what? That messiah was welcomed with palms. So, the Palm Sunday we celebrate is about people expecting a political liberator. No matter how great Jesus' spiritual side may have been at that time, he had a political side.

    Now, another problem is Moses gave those who had his people in bondage a river of blood, frogs, locusts, death, and finally freedom. Why didn't Jesus kill the first born of Pilate or the Roman emperor's first born? BECAUSE the power of God is not consistent between the Torah and the Gospels.