Next Stage for Gay Rights: Conservative Amnesia

  • metta

    Posts: 39129

    Mar 29, 2013 5:26 PM GMT
    Next Stage for Gay Rights: Conservative Amnesia


    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/03/next-stage-for-gay-rights-conservative-amnesia.html
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    Mar 29, 2013 5:33 PM GMT
    Tracks with the RJ Conservaposse mantra:

    "I oppose gay rights, and support the Republican homophobic party platform. But I'm really pro-gay when public opinion shifts against me. I was actually pro-gay all along, didn't you notice? Disregard my opposition to gay marriage and gay civil rights, I was really with you guys from the start." icon_razz.gif
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    Mar 30, 2013 10:11 PM GMT
    ART_DECO saidTracks with the RJ Conservaposse mantra:

    "I oppose gay rights, and support the Republican homophobic party platform. But I'm really pro-gay when public opinion shifts against me. I was actually pro-gay all along, didn't you notice? Disregard my opposition to gay marriage and gay civil rights, I was really with you guys from the start." icon_razz.gif


    Saddly your very own past says you have never realy been any better than those you now coose to behold so much contempt for, or do what you yourself spent most of your own life doing.
  • Lincsbear

    Posts: 2605

    Mar 30, 2013 10:35 PM GMT
    A similar process has occurred in the UK with opponents to equal marriage claiming gay men and lesbians now have civil partnerships, and should be content with that, so there`s no need for full marriage; all the while conveniently forgetting to mention they fought against that right just as hard!

    It often goes this way in politics: first, some measure is impossible; then it`s merely undesirable; and then lastly, there`s no one who opposes it.

    The opposition to gay men in the British armed forces was firstly based on the idea we`re physically and mentally inferior to our straight peers(this was claimed as late as the 1980s and early`90s), so to allow us in would reduce the fighting ability of the forces.

    As they lost that argument, it shifted to one of gay men damaging the morale of heterosexuals, so we still couldn`t join, either.

    Interestingly, it was the same argument of morale that was used to deny women the opportunity to do an increasing number of previously 'impossible' service roles, like at sea or on submarines, etc.

    Thirteen years on from the European Human Rights Court`s decision, gay men in the military is a non-issue here, and all the opposition based on the untruths about us has been quietly forgotten in the typically British way!
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    Mar 30, 2013 10:51 PM GMT
    tru_blu_aussie said
    ART_DECO saidTracks with the RJ Conservaposse mantra:

    "I oppose gay rights, and support the Republican homophobic party platform. But I'm really pro-gay when public opinion shifts against me. I was actually pro-gay all along, didn't you notice? Disregard my opposition to gay marriage and gay civil rights, I was really with you guys from the start." icon_razz.gif

    Saddly your very own past says you have never realy been any better than those you now coose to behold so much contempt for, or do what you yourself spent most of your own life doing.

    Please explain how my "past" contradicts what I wrote. And if you don't have hard evidence to support your slanders against me in violation of RJ TOU, you can discuss it with RJ Admin.
  • Whipmagic

    Posts: 1481

    Mar 30, 2013 10:52 PM GMT
    There is a technical term for this kind of conservative "forgetfulness". It's called Romnesia.
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    Mar 30, 2013 10:55 PM GMT
    tru_blu_aussie said
    ART_DECO saidTracks with the RJ Conservaposse mantra:

    "I oppose gay rights, and support the Republican homophobic party platform. But I'm really pro-gay when public opinion shifts against me. I was actually pro-gay all along, didn't you notice? Disregard my opposition to gay marriage and gay civil rights, I was really with you guys from the start." icon_razz.gif


    Saddly your very own past says you have never really been any better than those you now choose to behold so much contempt for, or do what you yourself spent most of your own life doing.


    Yet you expect forgiveness and acceptance; yet do not give an inch.icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Mar 30, 2013 11:04 PM GMT
    ART_DECO saidTracks with the RJ Conservaposse mantra:

    "I oppose gay rights, and support the Republican homophobic party platform. But I'm really pro-gay when public opinion shifts against me. I was actually pro-gay all along, didn't you notice? Disregard my opposition to gay marriage and gay civil rights, I was really with you guys from the start." icon_razz.gif


    First of all, can we stop using the terms Conservaposse and Liberal Hens? Both terms are totally fucking retarded. Really...do you really think that conservatives could actually form a posse?

    Second of all, you act like every conservative person drinks every drop of the Kool-Aid. I'm a liberal, and I don't drink every drop of the liberal Kool-Aid. In fact, I know a lot of it is bullshit. The problem with people like you is that you only see your own issue, and you refuse to understand that different issues affect people differently. I am very much about equality and ending the nonsense, irrational heterosexual supremacy that's dominating much of the conversation these days. Still, I understand that people can be Republican for economic reasons while still being pro-gay rights. Kind of the same way that I'm a registered Democrat, but I'm pro-gun rights. The kind of mutual exclusivity on issues that you seem to think exists, just doesn't.

    Quite frankly, it makes you come off looking like a partisan ass who'd rather call names rather than actually solving any problems. People who can't see the big picture and get past their own partisanship are the problem with America. You're no better than one of those partisan Tea Partiers, only coming from the left. Your kind of thinking is equally destructive as those moronic Republicans who follow Christian Evangelical views.
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    Mar 30, 2013 11:34 PM GMT
    ART_DECO saidTracks with the RJ Conservaposse mantra:

    "I oppose gay rights, and support the Republican homophobic party platform. But I'm really pro-gay when public opinion shifts against me. I was actually pro-gay all along, didn't you notice? Disregard my opposition to gay marriage and gay civil rights, I was really with you guys from the start." icon_razz.gif


    What makes you think that conservative leaning LGBT people on the whole would be *opposed* to equal marriage rights?

    This is an incredibly myopic assertion. True conservatives value individual freedoms and choice, when such freedoms and choices are not immediately inimical or injurious to the well-being of others, or the Republic at large.

    A more accurate statement that reflects conservative thinking (in the context of the issues surrounding equal marriage rights in the USA) would be that:

    Conservatives view equal marriage rights as important, but when considering the vast scope of issues that must be dealt with - crumbling infrastructure, fiscal policy, "homeland defense", foreign policy, to name but a few - issues like repealing or overturning DOMA and federalizing recognition of equal marriage rights as a Constitutional right could be prioritized as issues of less critical urgency.

    Especially when there are states that provide for recognition of equal marriage, if not actively issuing permits as licenses for LGBT marriages.

    Or when states offer legal frameworks for civil unions that resemble marriage in nearly every respect as heterosexual marriage.
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    Mar 30, 2013 11:49 PM GMT
    redsoxfan791 saidPeople who can't see the big picture and get past their own partisanship are the problem with America. You're no better than one of those partisan Tea Partiers, only coming from the left. Your kind of thinking is equally destructive as those moronic Republicans who follow Christian Evangelical views.

    The picture you are unable to see is the history of a small band of hard-core Right Wingers on this site. That were named the Conservaposse not by me, but by others here, about the time you joined this site, for their unremitting Right Wing gay-hostile positions. And in response to their attacking anyone who disagreed with them, using the term liberal hens against us.

    When you speak in ignorance of a topic it's you who looks moronic, not me.
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    Mar 31, 2013 12:07 AM GMT
    AlphaTrigger said
    ART_DECO saidTracks with the RJ Conservaposse mantra:

    "I oppose gay rights, and support the Republican homophobic party platform. But I'm really pro-gay when public opinion shifts against me. I was actually pro-gay all along, didn't you notice? Disregard my opposition to gay marriage and gay civil rights, I was really with you guys from the start." icon_razz.gif


    What makes you think that conservative leaning LGBT people on the whole would be *opposed* to equal marriage rights?

    This is an incredibly myopic assertion. True conservatives value individual freedoms and choice, when such freedoms and choices are not immediately inimical or injurious to the well-being of others, or the Republic at large.

    A more accurate statement that reflects conservative thinking (in the context of the issues surrounding equal marriage rights in the USA) would be that:

    Conservatives view equal marriage rights as important, but when considering the vast scope of issues that must be dealt with - crumbling infrastructure, fiscal policy, "homeland defense", foreign policy, to name but a few - issues like repealing or overturning DOMA and federalizing recognition of equal marriage rights as a Constitutional right could be prioritized as issues of less critical urgency.

    Especially when there are states that provide for recognition of equal marriage, if not actively issuing permits as licenses for LGBT marriages.

    Or when states offer legal frameworks for civil unions that resemble marriage in nearly every respect as heterosexual marriage.

    Thank you for proving the OP's point about Conservative Amnesia. So you Right Wingers were always for gay rights, it was just a matter of prioritizing it. You never spoke against it, never campaigned on it, never passed laws against gay civil rights and marriage. JesusMaryandJoseph. icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Mar 31, 2013 12:29 AM GMT
    Well, Bob... how then should our priorities be ordered?

    And yes, I do believe that equal marriage rights are something that should be discussed as a constitutional matter.

    Yet when *our* Republic is teetering on the edge of becoming a failed state due to disastrous fiscal and foreign policy perpetrated by morons embedded on both sides of the aisle by short-sighted voters kept distracted by wagging tails and waging tongues, corporatist and unionist manipulation, and rampant misinformation... then yes, our particular issue that effects at most a tiny sliver of Americans (about 5% as a liberal ballpark) will need to temporarily take a back seat to things like...

    I don't know...

    ... things like actually passing a budget instead of punting with continuing resolutions?

    Or passing legislation that could address raising the debt ceiling?

    Or drawing down our forces deployed overseas... energy policies... these things affect all 400 million Americans.
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    Mar 31, 2013 12:36 AM GMT
    AlphaTrigger saidWell, Bob... how then should our priorities be ordered?

    And yes, I do believe that equal marriage rights are something that should be discussed as a constitutional matter.

    Yet when *our* Republic is teetering on the edge of becoming a failed state due to disastrous fiscal and foreign policy perpetrated by morons embedded on both sides of the aisle by short-sighted voters kept distracted by wagging tails and waging tongues, corporatist and unionist manipulation, and rampant misinformation... then yes, our particular issue that effects at most a tiny sliver of Americans (about 5% as a liberal ballpark) will need to temporarily take a back seat to things like...

    I don't know...

    ... things like actually passing a budget instead of punting with continuing resolutions?

    Or passing legislation that could address raising the debt ceiling?

    Or drawing down our forces deployed overseas... energy policies... these things affect all 400 million Americans.

    You could have made the same arguments 50 years ago, about Black Civil Rights. We were in the middle of the Cold War, the Cuba Missile Crisis, the beginning of the Vietnam War. I was there for all of that, and remember it. What was the priority then?

    So now we can't have Gay Civil Rights, because we have a new set of priorities? A country as great as the United States can't multi-task? We can't do 2 things at once? How do gay civil rights hinder economic recovery? There are studies suggesting it will HELP the economy.

    And how come, when the economy was tanking, the Republican House of Representatives and State Legislatures around the country made *their* priority nothing but conservative social issues from Day One of their majority, and not fixing the economy? If Republicans think their conservative social issues trump economic issues during an economic downturn, can't I do the same with my gay issues?

    Oh, and BTW, last figures I saw say the US population is 315,584,926, not 400 million as you claim. That's an error of roughly 85,000,000. Try to get your facts straight. Otherwise you lose credibility.

    http://www.census.gov/#
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    Mar 31, 2013 1:12 AM GMT
    DISCLAIMER: I am not a republican. Nor am I a democrat.

    I firmly believe that BOTH parties have strayed far from their foundations, and are saddled with a moribund combination of cronyism, corruption, willful ignorance, and meddling through the agency of "corporate persons" who can funnel untold "wealth" to influence policy, resulting in a largely useless, ineffective, and out-of-touch political class.

    And of course we can multi-task and are doing so in multiple threads. As we discuss this topic, the SCOTUS is set to hear cases which will impact our rights regarding DOMA and the constitutionality of CA Prop 8.

    But rather than narrowly focusing ONLY on one issue, the rightly guided conservative will balance his or her thinking to the issues with the greatest impacts on the nation.

    This of course, implies that so many (particularly in the aforementioned political class) self-identifying "conservatives" are anything but "rightly-guided".

    See also Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, etc.

    Naturally, these politicians place very little if any value on our issues; and we who see things from a fiscally conservative perspective realize this.

    Changes in attitude and prioritization are happening.

    But hopefully, the Republic will survive to see such growth come to fruition: liberty and equal rights for all citizens with an economically secure government.
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    Mar 31, 2013 2:53 AM GMT
    AlphaTrigger saidAs we discuss this topic, the SCOTUS is set to hear cases which will impact our rights regarding DOMA and the constitutionality of CA Prop 8.

    You're a little behind the curve - those 2 cases were heard by the Court last week.

    And you haven't answered questions from me and Aristoshark as to why gay civil rights issues are precluded & blocked by other matters with a higher priority, as you claim.

    Why is restricting women's reproductive rights more important than gay civil rights, according to the recent pattern of Republican legislative actions? Why is restricting citizen voting rights more important than expanding gay social rights? Why is allowing virtually unchecked the narrow matter of gun ownership more important than protecting the broader civil rights of all citizens? And how come economic issues haven't made it to the Republican table, pushed aside for the conservative social agenda?

    You want social issues prioritized according to their "greatest impact on the nation". But that's another form of the "tyranny of the majority" that Jefferson feared.

    Basic human rights are absolute and non-negotiable, as defensible for 1 person as for millions. When you start prioritizing and dispensing them according to the numbers of a simple plurality then the immutable concept of inalienable basic rights disappears, subject to the whim of the moment, the will of the mob.
  • Apparition

    Posts: 3525

    Mar 31, 2013 4:11 AM GMT
    arent there almost 400 of them? it only takes a dozen or so to make some law, they could prioritize over 40 different items a week, and there are a whole lot of things they can just PASS and be done with it.

    gay rights
    abortion
    gun control

    pulling all troops out of land wars in asia


    just do it and get it over with. the end. the USA is bankrupt and cant recover, they can at least go out with grace before canada and mexico buy up the good parts and run your countries like adults.