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Okay, I know this may sound kinda nasty and I CERTAINLY don't want anyone to take it unkindly, but is there ANYONE under on this site that isn't perfectly jacked?
I enjoy sports and running and healthy eating as much as the next "Realjock" but COME ON, some of us (or maybe it's just me) are not blessed with the perfect body gene.
That being said, I don't want to undermine all the hard work that all you gorgeous guys put into all your gorgeous bodies, I'm not starting a competition here, but is there anyone else out there that thinks that the gay community has become a bit too superficial for its own good? What happened to the open armed, all are welcome, peace and love gays of the 60s?

Maybe I'm holding the gay community to too high a standard, but I always thought that we as gay men (and our sisters the Lesies) were the wonderful exception to the rule.

Perhaps this is turning into a rant, but I am worried that we are stepping too far over the line of superficial judgements, looking fabulous is one thing, but dividing each other into "The Hot Boyfriend" or "The Chubby Best Friend" is starting to nag a bit at my Pride.

Respond with care.

-Imperfectly Yours,
Roberts85

No. There's no problems here. I have no clue what you speak of.

I'd say more but I have to go make my protein shake, count my calories, my carbs, and have lunch with hotty-body 24-year-old and make vacation plans with unattractive-but-loyal overweight friend.

Cheers!

I dont think this has anything in particular to do with homosexuality or 'pride', but i can certainly wholeheartedly second the notion that we should all strive to be a little less vain and superficial.

I understand what you're saying Robert, but the fact is, not ALL of the community is like that. I know I'm not!

I don't think we are any more superficial than mainstream pop culture... and yeah the gay community isn't as open-armed and accepting as you would think. We're a very fractioned group.

I am not perfectly jacked.....








yet.

atlnvmasc saidI am not perfectly jacked.....








yet.

same....but working on it!

Hey Robert, you're point is certainly grounded in truth, but I think that singling out this site has some flawed logic.

For one, the gay pursuit of a "hot" body has existed since gays have existed. The definition of hot has changed (compare the 70's to now -- note the level of body fat, not to mention the moustaches), but gays have always focused on the body as an object of beauty and desire, both for themselves and what they want in others. And I think you can go back not only decades, but probably all the way to the ancient Greeks for plenty of evidence of this.

Second, you're forgetting that a site called RealJock.com ("Gay Fitness Health & Life") is a self-selected subset of gay boys who are obviously going to be more focused on fitness and looking good than even the average gay.

So, while I think your point is certainly valid, complaining about the guys on RJ and getting depressed about the state of gay culture is a bit of a misplaced reaction. It's like going to RepublicansForPalin.com and lamenting the fact that "everyone" is so anti-intellectual and worrying about the resultant drag on your "American Pride."

So get some perspective by looking beyond this site -- then proceed with your rant if you still feel justified. But only after you visit a few bear-oriented, drag-oriented, art-oriented, political-oriented, etc. gay web sites, festivals and events. But on here?

Roberts85 saidOkay, I know this may sound kinda nasty and I CERTAINLY don't want anyone to take it unkindly, but is there ANYONE under on this site that isn't perfectly jacked?
I enjoy sports and running and healthy eating as much as the next "Realjock" but COME ON, some of us (or maybe it's just me) are not blessed with the perfect body gene.
That being said, I don't want to undermine all the hard work that all you gorgeous guys put into all your gorgeous bodies, I'm not starting a competition here, but is there anyone else out there that thinks that the gay community has become a bit too superficial for its own good? What happened to the open armed, all are welcome, peace and love gays of the 60s?

Maybe I'm holding the gay community to too high a standard, but I always thought that we as gay men (and our sisters the Lesies) were the wonderful exception to the rule.

Perhaps this is turning into a rant, but I am worried that we are stepping too far over the line of superficial judgements, looking fabulous is one thing, but dividing each other into "The Hot Boyfriend" or "The Chubby Best Friend" is starting to nag a bit at my Pride.

Respond with care.

-Imperfectly Yours,
Roberts85

my parents are perfect products of the 60s, yet i was suprised to find that my mother of all people wished i wasn't gay (a psychologist), yet my father (a carpenter) appreciates me even more for the fact. and its just gay nature to love those straight boys on the football team with the perfect bodies, just as Jessica Alba for the straight man, we are no less barbaric or different from the straight men in the way we are sexual. just in that we admit a dick is more exciting than a fleshy clitt and a pair of tits. And i know for a fact that gays are the most superficial beings on this planet otherwise we would not dominate the fashion industries, so take pride and stop being such a hetero pussy about it lol

While there is much truth in Robert's statement, there's also more complexity to it than stated by him. I personally relate to the issue of being not as genetically gifted as some of the guys here. There's only so much muscular development that will counter an ectomorphic skeletal structure. I can do all the delt work of the next guy and it will not make the bones of my upper torso wider. Add to that the fact that my age makes being ripped far more difficult without a diet so strict it's unpleasant, and an amount of exercise that's beyond the time I have available. I can only affect my metabolism so much, but not beyond the constraints of my genetic makeup.

Working out and being 'fit' is meant to enhance my life, not be my life. There are those that can and do spend every free moment and more at the gym. I do not chide anyone with a commitment to a goal and how much of the rest of their life they are willing to sacrifice for it. When I think of my own motivations, for me, it's a tough balance, because sometimes it's difficult to determine deep down, how much is for my health and how much is vanity. The vanity proponent is far more ephemeral and, unlike the health aspects of it, is not 'always there'. All I have to do is see some guy who's near my age who looks incredible, and has an incredible physique that is partly due to genetics, and I want to quit. Then, the benefits that make me feel healthy are the only reason that I keep going.
I will never look like I wished I would have since I was a teenager, and that's largely because I have an unchangeable genetic base. I work with what I have. I also realize that there are some that can look at me and see me (purely visually) as homely or average or handsome. I have no say in how I'm viewed, only how I see myself.
Fortunately at this site, there are many men who show that a guy can be fit, smart, funny, and perceptive, and willing to help others. I don't agree with them all the time, but their voices are as essential to my growth as is pushing iron.

I don't know what you're talking about. I have two ugly friends. How can I be superficial if I have two ugly friends?

If you want to surround yourself by guys that think they're all that then go to bigmuscle.com. I got tired of the attitude on that site. There were a few nice guys on that site but they were the exception. I don't want to discredit them.

I feel much more warmly received on this site. Guys on here are much nicer generally. At least the ones that post on the forums are more social and not all about some hook up or trying to get in your pants.

muchmorethanmuscleI feel much more warmly received on this site. Guys on here are much nicer generally. At least the ones that post on the forums are more social and not all about some hook up or trying to get in your pants.

Is that why all of my hook-up emails were being answered in ill fashion? Shit, I better make my way back over to Manhunt! LOL!

When you get to my age ( and most of your friends are dead or on meds for something or other) you may find that fitness is not very superficial.

HighVoltageGuy said

muchmorethanmuscleI feel much more warmly received on this site. Guys on here are much nicer generally. At least the ones that post on the forums are more social and not all about some hook up or trying to get in your pants.

Is that why all of my hook-up emails were being answered in ill fashion? Shit, I better make my way back over to Manhunt! LOL!

There are plenty of guys looking to hook up on RJ. Surprisingly I get the occasional one who can't read my extremely brief profile and yet still asks me for a shag. I just delete them since they're so impatient that they can't take the time to read four brief sentences. That's only happened like three of four times on this site since I've been a member for eight months.

But there are guys on here that are more into fitness and not using the gym as a way to be hot and snag other fit men.

Roberts85 said...is there anyone else out there that thinks that the gay community has become a bit too superficial for its own good?

That would be why you're seeing the "bears" continue to gain prominence within the larger gay community. Not saying there isn't a beauty pageant aspect to that crew as well, but they're generally much more welcoming, less body- and age-obsessed.

hobrontoThat would be why you're seeing the "bears" continue to gain prominence within the larger gay community. Not saying there isn't a beauty pageant aspect to that crew as well, but they're generally much more welcoming, less body- and age-obsessed.

Generally true, however, I've been "discriminated" against by the Bear Community here in SF of all places. Once standing in line to enter a bear bar in SOMA, a man yelled at the door man telling him..."Get that twink out of this line and send him to the Castro! He shouldn't be here!"

This might be a different thread but I have been asking myself a similar question regarding the purpose and direction of "Pride" events. I understand living in San Francisco, my view of Pride is skewed but each year, the floats that get the most attention are the muscle boys, the drag queens, and the over the top floats. I understand Pride is a celebration of our lives and by putting ourselves out there as a community, we create a space for others to come out and live their truth but I questino how many people would want to come out after seeing some of the floats and partying that goes on at Pride. Yes, its a lot of superficiality, yes, there are alot of objectifying one another. What i read into the original post seemed to be asking the question, "What is the direction that gay culture seems to be heading towards?". As we become more metrosexual in appearances, more 'straight acting' in behavior, are we losing much of the uniqueness that made being part of the LGBT community so radical in the first place?

I couldn't have said it any better. I have been talking about this for years. It saddens me to see so many intelligent, well spoken, genuine guys sidetracked by fake tans, abercrombie and fitch, and the quest for a 6 pack.

I think that everyone should strive to lead a healthy lifestyle which includes working out, but there has to be a line.

As an extra comment. To all you guys who tan to look better, you couldnt be the most ignorant and stupid person alive. That is like inviting cancer right into your body! I'm so proud of my beautiful pale skin!

That's a bit harsh, Daniel. I'm in the same boat with you. I don't tan and want to protect myself from skin cancer but bashing people and calling them stupid is overboard.

I understand where you come from, cause in a way it really makes me sad cause i see people that i could quite possilbly click with but i can talk to them cause i just feel like they wouldnt like me cause im not "that gay" ya know cause i seem them they have these fantasic bodies and their with other guys that have fantasic bodies and it just kills me, cause i can go to the gym 5 days a week and i just feel substandard, cause thanks to my gene's ill always have a bit of a belly.

It's true. We do have different standards, by and large, on this site, and IguanaSF is exactly right: we're not exactly a random sampling of the gay male population. But here's another thing to keep in mind: that little profile pic to the left of this posting? That's me on a good day. It's not me on a fat day, an ugly day, a bad hair day, a puffy-face hung-over-as-hell day, or at ten pm when I wander into Walmart in track pants and a non-name-brand sweatshirt. It's an idealized me, and it's the me I strive to be as much as possible. I think, if we're honest, we all probably do that a little bit. Some days our abs don't pop (hell, I'm just fat enough that mine never do, really), but we don't peel off our shirts and pose for pictures those days. Or if we do, we really suck it in.

The point? It's an image we create, and perpetuate, because we expect others to expect it of us. Is that particularly vain or superficial? Maybe. But that vain superficiality might just come from a very human and ordinary need to feel like we fit in and conform.

Maybe. Or maybe that's just me justifying my superficiality, or the DayQuil I just swigged kicking in and making me Hallmark-momenty.

muchmorethanmuscle saidThat's a bit harsh, Daniel. I'm in the same boat with you. I don't tan and want to protect myself from skin cancer but bashing people and calling them stupid is overboard.

Thats your opinion. I feel like sometimes people need a firm kick in the ass to understand the full scope of their choices.

danielryan...their choices.

You stated it yourself, it's their choice. Not yours.

I think you are right...and you are wrong at the same time. Gay guys should be interested about BOTH things, they way they look and the way they think, there is NOTHING wrong with looking good, that doesn't mean you are superficial but unfortunately its a tendency in the gay world.

Please guys just stop it with the wishful thinking already - "I dont look good cause of my genes" - PLEASE genes? 1 year and a half ago(21 years old) I was ridiculously skinny and anorexic, and I also had a friend who was ridiculously fat. We just DECIDED we wanted to do something about our bodies and take care of our selves, - stop being lazy and do something about "me"....I gained 50 pounds in muscles....He lost 70 pounds of body fat.

How can we expect for some one to love us if we dont even love our self on the first place? Unless you have a disability that makes it impossible for you to work out you can always have a nice body.

I always look for something else in guys than just the way they look, but its true that most of the hot guys are idiots to the 101%, I dont consider my self superficial but yes looking good is not the only important thing but ITS important , that just means a guy take care of himself, and THAT, is a quality.

HighVoltageGuy said

hobrontoThat would be why you're seeing the "bears" continue to gain prominence within the larger gay community. Not saying there isn't a beauty pageant aspect to that crew as well, but they're generally much more welcoming, less body- and age-obsessed.

Generally true, however, I've been "discriminated" against by the Bear Community here in SF of all places. Once standing in line to enter a bear bar in SOMA, a man yelled at the door man telling him..."Get that twink out of this line and send him to the Castro! He shouldn't be here!"

Just curious, did you get in the bar?

If not, then yeah, I'd say you were probably "discriminated" against. Otherwise, it just sounds like just a disparaging comment from an individual.

I'm only bothered by the pricks who act elitist and only talk to other hot people. I'm bothered by this because it's like.. you only talk to people to get laid? I've always been proud of myself for being able to talk to and carry a converstation with people who are very diverse.

I do like seeing guys with nice bodies, gives me something to work towards.

IguanaSF has it right - gays have always strived to attain a certain physical attractiveness, ever since the sexual revolutions of the '60's. I suggest you read the book Faggots by Larry Kramer. It's an interesting (albeit random) read, and it's one of the most respected pieces of 'gay' litereature out there. It really shows the gay culture at it's best and worse, and every gay can relate to it in some way. The best thing is that it was written in the early Eighties, but the story could easily have happened at the fag bar down the street last Wednesday. Read it, then go look at some other sites that are made just for gays. Then you might change your tune at how the guys here act.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not the bestest body here either. Just working on it slowly. And it's not just superficial, but it makes me feel better to feel like I liook better. It's all psychological and basic instincts. It's all about mating, and even dim-witted gays understand that the older you get the less likely it is that you'll find a guy to settle with, no matter how much we enjoy our freedom. And just wanting to talk to guys who are 'hot' is not neccessarily superficial. You have to be attracted to someone even if you're just going to be friends. Read some Freud and some Jung while you're in the library. They have great ideas, and sometimes they're right too.

Thank you guys for all of your well-stated opinions.
I'm glad this topic has been so successfully though-provoking.

KEEP IT COMING!

By the way, Jojo1420, I'm very familiar with Larry Kramer's work, I'm a big fan. Have you read his most recent, "The Tragedy of Today's Gays"? Also, a very good (if at times, infuriating) read.
Also, thank you for your suggestion IguanaSF, I will do just that.

Respectfully yours,
-Roberts85

I think gay men are just as superficial as straight men. When is the last time you've seen a straight musician, athlete, actor, or even politician who had a spouse that was an eyesore?

danielryan said

muchmorethanmuscle saidThat's a bit harsh, Daniel. I'm in the same boat with you. I don't tan and want to protect myself from skin cancer but bashing people and calling them stupid is overboard.

Thats your opinion. I feel like sometimes people need a firm kick in the ass to understand the full scope of their choices.

Let go of the need. It's their choice. Why get so volatile over something that really doesn't personally affect you?

Beauty is definitely important, it's inspiring. But I think there needs to be more than just that. To have beauty, a heart and a brain, you'll be unstoppable.

But yeah some interesting points brought up here. Where is the gay community heading? What are we working towards? I think it's the same problems as the rest of society. I've been reading/thinking about it lately. We're not working towards anything valuable anymore. So many guys have a rough time growing up but never take the time to move on from that.
I see a lot of desperate, selfish, self-indulgent behavior. I'm not perfect myself but I'm going to try and be the type of man I would like to meet more often. I think we all should.

Alpha13 saidWhen you get to my age ( and most of your friends are dead or on meds for something or other) you may find that fitness is not very superficial.

Its true. many people around your age are on some meds related to not taking care of their bodies.

Good for you for keeping it up!! Your body looks good!

This is not only a "gay" issue....to be more accurate it is a societal issue. I thinks it's commendable to live a healthy and physically active lifestyle but I don't subscibe to the appearance matters most approach. In a conversation or attempted conversation that lasts one minute....mentality kicks in next and what happens when it's been erased by appearance matters most?

danielryan saidI feel like sometimes people need a firm kick in the ass to understand the full scope of their choices.

How's that working for ya? (Channeling Dr. Phil).

The "verbal kick" is always my first gut reaction, but I've learned that if you REALLY care about helping people to change, you have to "speak to their listening" so I've learned to suppress that natural reaction -- usually by giving myself a "time out" before responding. (I'm not always successful).

Rarely is it the case that people listen to verbal kicks in the ass. Most of the time that just makes the kicker feel good to release some pent-up anger. It usually just pisses off the target. It has a very low probability of success in actually moving someone to think. Any course in group dynamics, human behavior or psychology will confirm this over and over.

You're a nice guy Daniel, and I always enjoy your posts, but IMHO, verbal kicks in the ass are a signal that someone is more about exorcising their own emotions than a genuine interest in engaging with others. It tells people much more about the kicker than it does the "kickee."

HighVoltageGuy saidGenerally true, however, I've been "discriminated" against by the Bear Community here in SF of all places.

Just curious, Voltage, which bar was that?

zdrew said...or at ten pm when I wander into Walmart in track pants and a non-name-brand sweatshirt.

Don't tell me, I just know it... you wear bunny slippers too? Oh please let it be true.

Yours in air fuzzies,

K

PS And to the OP and all the other posters - great topic!

I know I sound bitchy and rude, which totally isn't my attitude. I just get really frustrated with certain things. I honestly look at a lot of situations and think about what if these people were my friends or family. I just want people to make the right choices. I guess you guys are right, it really isn't anyones job to tell someone else what to do. I just hope these homos can get it together!

Men are vain and like pretty things.

It really is that simple.

RunintheCity saidMen are vain and like pretty things.

City: Love the way you iron shirts, and the way you look in your hunky boxers. * swirls lollipop around mouth suggestively *

Daniel: You look soooo hot in your jeans, I just want to... * bites hand, cocks hips, makes gay smirk *

...

Oh, sorry, what were we talking about? I got distracted by some pretty things...

* Stares in mirror. Pinches skin around waistline. Frowns. *

danielryan saidI couldn't have said it any better. I have been talking about this for years. It saddens me to see so many intelligent, well spoken, genuine guys sidetracked by fake tans, abercrombie and fitch, and the quest for a 6 pack.

I think that everyone should strive to lead a healthy lifestyle which includes working out, but there has to be a line.

As an extra comment. To all you guys who tan to look better, you couldnt be the most ignorant and stupid person alive. That is like inviting cancer right into your body! I'm so proud of my beautiful pale skin!

live fast, die young, and leave a beautiful corpse. thats all this world really cares about anyway lol

A few years ago Rupert Everett was interviewed and said this about the shallow narcissistic side of gay culture:

Now personality is a haircut and a belt.

(this is a remembered line, so is paraphrased.)

That's one side of it, and with the state of media that makes stars in ten minutes, it's a pretty concise report!

But there is more, both out there and here at RJ - there are some damn sensible and sensitive thinkers here, reminding us that, no, it really isn't a six pack - except for those who let it be.

I don't think it's just gay men - the whole world is spinning around sex, money, beauty... it's no surprise it's all that gay people think about - we ARE people, after all.
I really think our society has come to a point where abs and boobs and dicks have kicked soul's ass. And that's a pity! I don't really know how to say this, but sometimes it feels like people get lost in these rules that they create themselves - about appearance, behavior, friends, job... life.
I don't really care how people look... I don't care if they have an athletic body or whatever - why the hell should I? I mean - you're not dating the body, you're dating the person.
Anyway... I know it's not the best place to talk about vanity

"we ARE people, after all."

On the money.

There was always a danger that gay men could hold onto natural adolescent narcissism longer than their straight brothers, because of the delayed self-recognition that was so prevalent - if you couldn't date guys in your teens and didn't start until later, you could be filled with latent adolescent longing and development issues. (Anyone who says this doesn't apply to him can probably name someone else ...) Now I think many young men don't have that issue, they're able to identify and accept themselves sooner, and find more acceptance among peers.

At the same time, the narcissistic "eternal adolescence" that we're sold so effectively by media and advertisers in the consumer society supports fulldelight's point: everyone across society is buying into the products of a deep and lasting vanity - but not self-respect, as that can be eroded by the "you're-not-good-enough, but-you-will-be-if-you-use-our-product/gym/medicine" message.

But the "we're people after all" intelligence goes to a bigger picture: though it gets tiring watching gay characters on TV who are shallow and stereotyped, I have to remind myself that Grace was as shallow as Will - and the married couples we see on sitcoms (and reality TV) seem as dimwitted and even heartless as can be imagined!

A good six pack happens to be a part of Gay Pride very loosely, but why is that a bad thing?
Gay Pride is certainly community driven, a source for social unity, and political agenda, but I think also a part of Gay Pride is an ideal picture of a gay man who is intelligent, confident, well adjusted, and completely happy. All of you here, have already realized that a sound body leads to a sound mind. It is certainly not shallow to understand that being physically fit makes you happy!

However, it's totally a seperate issue all together that a fit body is also....pleasing to the eye and that this image is highly saught after by most guys. I myself, know that physical fitness jump started my life and I had a fit appearence before I even entered the gay community or discovered P.R.I.D.E. Now that I know the pull it gives me in the dating world, I tend to obsess over how I look a lot more, but again....gay dating and the grand shooting gallery that is THE GAY CLUB has very little to do with Gay PRIDE.

Gay Pride is an idea, gay pride motivates and inspires people well beyond the physical. Don't cheapen it by comparing it to shallow dating rituals that mind you, are not totally exclusive to being gay.