Are you Gay first?

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    Apr 08, 2013 3:52 PM GMT
    If you are any other type of minority, does your identity have deeper roots in that status or in your status as a gay man?

    I was having a conversation with an Indian transgender activist today about issues of Identity and he asked me this question. I found it to be pretty deep.

    In my own life for example, I would have to say that I am definitely black first gay second, and I was wondering where other people stood on the spectrum?

    Discuss girls!

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  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Apr 08, 2013 3:55 PM GMT
    I AM ME first
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    Apr 08, 2013 3:56 PM GMT
    Yeah I'd say Black first, Asexual Second. If I were white my race wouldn't matter..but i'm not so yeah lol..thats how it goes.
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    Apr 08, 2013 3:58 PM GMT
    WrestleMan saidYeah I'd say Black first, Asexual Second,


    Okay, so why is that? because I think a lot of black guys are gonna give that answer.

    I love discussing Identityicon_redface.gif
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    Apr 08, 2013 3:59 PM GMT
    To cut to the chase, no.
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    Apr 08, 2013 4:00 PM GMT
    Being gay is my sexuality, but being black is my roots, my culture, my family it does not define but it is more impacting than my sexuality. And is more important to me.
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    Apr 08, 2013 4:07 PM GMT
    O__O said
    WrestleMan saidYeah I'd say Black first, Asexual Second,


    Okay, so why is that? because I think a lot of black guys are gonna give that answer.

    I love discussing Identityicon_redface.gif


    Because no matter what facet of society you are in there will always be something to remind you of your skin color. Speaking for myself and in this is STRICTLY my opinion..but I feel the mainstream gay community is VICIOUSLY Racist and in extreme subtle ways (to the point where most people just deny it). Now of course, NOT ALL non-black gays are racist but I would imagine, for normal gay males, who happen to be Black his dating options are smaller than blondie blue eyed from France. As a result, his race results in a slightly altered experience or lack there of when compared to his mainstream counterparts. Which is why i'd say Black comes before Gay, cause, gay or not..you're still Black..and the homosexual community does a great job at reminding us of that.
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    Apr 08, 2013 4:22 PM GMT
    WrestleMan said
    O__O said
    WrestleMan saidYeah I'd say Black first, Asexual Second,


    Okay, so why is that? because I think a lot of black guys are gonna give that answer.

    I love discussing Identityicon_redface.gif


    Because no matter what facet of society you are in there will always be something to remind you of your skin color. Speaking for myself and in this is STRICTLY my opinion..but I feel the mainstream gay community is VICIOUSLY Racist and in extreme subtle ways (to the point where most people just deny it). Now of course, NOT ALL non-black gays are racist but I would imagine, for normal gay males, who happen to be Black his dating options are smaller than blondie blue eyed from France. As a result, his race results in a slightly altered experience or lack there of when compared to his mainstream counterparts. Which is why i'd say Black comes before Gay, cause, gay or not..you're still Black..and the homosexual community does a great job at reminding us of that.


    You know, you might be on to something there, because if I think about my own life..........I grew up with most of the barriers of color removed. I was in NYC and my family had money so I was rarely ever placed in situations where I felt boxed in by race. But looking at a timeline of my life I would say that actually interacting with other gay men has strengthened by ethic identity.

    I guess this will be the experience that most of us have, but what about men who feel that the black community relegates them to the same second-class citizenship that they the gays do for being black? It certainly wasn't the case for me, but I would imagine someone might feel that way

    ......or maybe not idk. icon_question.gif
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    Apr 08, 2013 4:22 PM GMT
    Earlier in my life I would have answered differently perhaps, but for me gay is first. It's about who and how I love, and love is a fundamental vital part of me.

    -Doug
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    Apr 08, 2013 4:23 PM GMT
    I'm human first. Homo, bi or hetro or any place in between is about 20th on life's list of priorities
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    Apr 08, 2013 4:27 PM GMT
    meninlove said Earlier in my life I would have answered differently perhaps, but for me gay is first. It's about who and how I love, and love is a fundamental vital part of me.

    -Doug


    Yeah, I can totally see how you would feel that way! icon_smile.gif

    I would imagine if we were all so lucky to find someone who made us happy that we might all adopt a similar position.

    Actually, I don't feel particularly passionate about things like marriage rights personally, but I always stand up for them because of couples like you guys! ^__^
  • thegaymessiah

    Posts: 214

    Apr 08, 2013 4:39 PM GMT
    Yes.

    but only because i still live in a world where im not treated equally for being a homosexual male... so my identity as a gay cannot go away.

    if you say 'there's more to you than a homosexual male' but yet you don't support gay rights and you actively work against gay people and gay visibility, don't u think thats a double standard.

    don't hate on me for being gay and i won't talk about it so much. until then i am gay, gay, gay gay gay.

    blacks had to deal with this, so did women. so did native americans, jews, insert your favorite minority here.

    if the activists all just gave up and stopped with their identity i doubt any progress would be made.

    flamers are annoying? maybe. yet what is more annoying is evil, hatred and bigotry.
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    Apr 08, 2013 4:43 PM GMT
    O__O said
    WrestleMan said
    O__O said
    WrestleMan saidYeah I'd say Black first, Asexual Second,


    Okay, so why is that? because I think a lot of black guys are gonna give that answer.

    I love discussing Identityicon_redface.gif


    Because no matter what facet of society you are in there will always be something to remind you of your skin color. Speaking for myself and in this is STRICTLY my opinion..but I feel the mainstream gay community is VICIOUSLY Racist and in extreme subtle ways (to the point where most people just deny it). Now of course, NOT ALL non-black gays are racist but I would imagine, for normal gay males, who happen to be Black his dating options are smaller than blondie blue eyed from France. As a result, his race results in a slightly altered experience or lack there of when compared to his mainstream counterparts. Which is why i'd say Black comes before Gay, cause, gay or not..you're still Black..and the homosexual community does a great job at reminding us of that.


    You know, you might be on to something there, because if I think about my own life..........I grew up with most of the barriers of color removed. I was in NYC and my family had money so I was rarely ever placed in situations where I felt boxed in by race. But looking at a timeline of my life I would say that actually interacting with other gay men has strengthened by ethic identity.

    I guess this will be the experience that most of us have, but what about men who feel that the black community relegates them to the same second-class citizenship that they the gays do for being black? It certainly wasn't the case for me, but I would imagine someone might feel that way

    ......or maybe not idk. icon_question.gif


    Well I had a similar upbringing to you...I grew up in an extremely suburban section of Queens, NY went to private school and basically was the fly in a bowl of fresh WHITE milk, if you get what I mean lol. But my race was never an issue...my 3 closest best friends are all caucasian and my race has never separated me from them in any kind of way. However, when you meet "normal" or "stereotypical" Black people who want to know "why do you act white" or "why do you dress like that" thats when your race is brought to the forefront...the reality is, a LARGE amount (NOT ALL) of the Black Community in America are poorly educated, with lack of education comes ignorance. Most Black men I know personally are HYPER-Masculine...and with that comes the limited territory the Black Community has designed and perpetuated for the Black Man (your an athlete...a drug boy"hustler"...or a business man (who most likely still maintains his "Blackness" outside of the office (kinda like how they portray Morris Chestnut in various films) Any straying outside those lines and you are subjected to ridicule. Being GAY is a DEFINITE no-no. Idk about the white, light hispanics but I know in the Afro-Latino community it is pretty much the same concept. I would imagine being Black and Gay and coming from a "traditional" homophobic Black Family (I know that sounds terrible..but it's reality for many) is a horrendous catch 22. The mainstream gay community may or may not accept you (which is strongly contingent upon your looks obviously) and your own racial community isn't going accept you due to whatever perceived notions or misinformation they've been brainwashed with. Now change that person's race to white and ALL OF THIS would sound different..which again is why I'd say BLACK FIRST...Asexual second. Luckily I didn't have to go thru any of this and most people don't even understand what the hell I'm talking about when I say asexual lol. But a simpler example will be my race vs ethnicity. Both my parents are hispanic (Cuba/Dominican Rep.) however people here in the USA seem to be amazed about the fact that a "Latino" can be as dark as me, even though the MLB is full of us and the fact that there ARE MILLIONS OF Black Hispanics in Latin America..so Black comes before Hispanic for me..cause clearly my skin color is saying something that I am not, even if it's misleading.
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    Apr 08, 2013 4:44 PM GMT
    thegaymessiah saidYes.



    if you say 'there's more to you than a homosexual male' but yet you don't support gay rights and you actively work against gay people and gay visibility, don't u think thats a double standard.

    don't hate on me for being gay and i won't talk about it so much. until then i am gay, gay, gay gay gay.



    when did I say that I didn't support gay rights or that that I hated gay people? I'm gay my friend. icon_wink.gif
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    Apr 08, 2013 4:51 PM GMT
    WrestleMan said
    Because no matter what facet of society you are in there will always be something to remind you of your skin color. Speaking for myself and in this is STRICTLY my opinion..but I feel the mainstream gay community is VICIOUSLY Racist and in extreme subtle ways (to the point where most people just deny it). Now of course, NOT ALL non-black gays are racist but I would imagine, for normal gay males, who happen to be Black his dating options are smaller than blondie blue eyed from France. As a result, his race results in a slightly altered experience or lack there of when compared to his mainstream counterparts. Which is why i'd say Black comes before Gay, cause, gay or not..you're still Black..and the homosexual community does a great job at reminding us of that.

    Interesting. I'm not in any minority, other than being gay, so I can't claim those experiences myself. Nor can I address the OP's question.

    What I do see in our little gay world of Wilton Manors is guys & girls of all kinds hanging around together, being BFs and partners, socializing in every way. In restaurants and bars I'll see groups together that include Asians, Blacks, Latinos, Whites, even Indians from our local tribes. And more often than not to my observation, if one of the minorities is partnered it'll be with a White. So I don't see and hear a lot of racial hatred or division in this particular gay community, not even in private conversations.

    BUT, I know I don't see everything that's going on, even here, much less in the rest of the US. And I'd be unlikely to see or hear the bad experiences minorities have, I only witness the good things in my own daily life and social circles. It raises the danger of having a rose-tinted view of this issue.

    So I welcome your personal insights. It's a problem I don't witness and so it takes someone else to inform me, as I'm sure you've informed some others of us here today. I'm just surprised the problem is quite as extreme & wide-spread as you state, and would be interested in hearing more about this. Thanks
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    Apr 08, 2013 5:01 PM GMT
    We are in many ways similar to one another and in many ways not similar.
    There is no 1st and last thing to describe ourselves, we are what we are, a mixture of all the qualities one has, describes ourselves...

    If one looks for sexual identity, we are either Male/female/Transgender
    If one identifies us by our sexual orientation, we are either LGBTS
    If we look for moral qualities, we are either good/bad/neutral

    So, depending on what we look for, our identity changes

    Q:If you are any other type of minority, does your identity have deeper roots in that status or in your status as a gay man?
    Well, no one comes under Majority and no one comes under minority...
    it's what one thinks of...
    If we group ourselves together and categorize based on our preferences, we think only about our preferences and our groups...we are limited by our limits which are set by ourselevs.
    Once when we discover that the grouping and categorizing is mere illusion, and realize that all are equal, our ideas and identity of a specific community will no longer exists....

    I don't consider myself as neither Minority nor Majority, So, I have no Identity...my Identity does not exist...
    if exist, it is only an illusion created by myself.
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    Apr 08, 2013 5:03 PM GMT
    WrestleMan saidYeah I'd say Black first, Asexual Second. If I were white my race wouldn't matter..but i'm not so yeah lol..thats how it goes.

    This.
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    Apr 08, 2013 5:20 PM GMT
    ART_DECO said
    WrestleMan said
    Because no matter what facet of society you are in there will always be something to remind you of your skin color. Speaking for myself and in this is STRICTLY my opinion..but I feel the mainstream gay community is VICIOUSLY Racist and in extreme subtle ways (to the point where most people just deny it). Now of course, NOT ALL non-black gays are racist but I would imagine, for normal gay males, who happen to be Black his dating options are smaller than blondie blue eyed from France. As a result, his race results in a slightly altered experience or lack there of when compared to his mainstream counterparts. Which is why i'd say Black comes before Gay, cause, gay or not..you're still Black..and the homosexual community does a great job at reminding us of that.

    Interesting. I'm not in any minority, other than being gay, so I can't claim those experiences myself. Nor can I address the OP's question.

    What I do see in our little gay world of Wilton Manors is guys & girls of all kinds hanging around together, being BFs and partners, socializing in every way. In restaurants and bars I'll see groups together that include Asians, Blacks, Latinos, Whites, even Indians from our local tribes. And more often than not to my observation, if one of the minorities is partnered it'll be with a White. So I don't see and hear a lot of racial hatred or division in this particular gay community, not even in private conversations.

    BUT, I know I don't see everything that's going on, even here, much less in the rest of the US. And I'd be unlikely to see or hear the bad experiences minorities have, I only witness the good things in my own daily life and social circles. It raises the danger of having a rose-tinted view of this issue.

    So I welcome your personal insights. It's a problem I don't witness and so it takes someone else to inform me, as I'm sure you've informed some others of us here today. I'm just surprised the problem is quite as extreme & wide-spread as you state, and would be interested in hearing more about this. Thanks


    I think what he's getting at is general dissatisfaction with gay community in general on the part of racial and ethnic minorities. It may not seem like a big deal to be discriminated against for sex or dating but it can be, especially given the cocktail of self-esteem stripping experiences that ALL GAYS tend to go through before and during the coming out process.

    There is a simple fact that drives all of these hurt feelings and it can't be overstated.

    We come to the table as gay men to be considered as emotional and sexual beings. so while it may seem like rejection for partnership is trivial, it's importance is greatly amplified when one considers the fact that being gay is entirely about the pursuit and acquisition of love and sex. If we did not need these things-and need them from men, we wouldn't be here.

    It is also important to remember that to be a free self actualized gay man, you have to be a very aggressive combatant against inequality already. So when we do finally overcome the obstacles in life that prevent us from being able to freely be able to partner with who we want outside of the community, it makes absolutely no sense for us to accept the deep, systemic farming of pro-white attraction bias within the community we fought so hard to be a part of.

    Discrimination against minorities for companionship is not a serious issue because people get turned down as a matter of individual, organically developed preferences. It's an issue because the structure of the gay experience is currently set up to facilitate a lot more exposure to sexualized white gay men than any other group. Our media, our TV shows, magazines, and pornagraphic material all impose whiteness onto male beauty.

    The frustration is that most people are unwilling to acknowledge that pro white attraction bias is manufactured.....which kind of implies that it's innate.......which is horrifically offensive. Often times when issues of race a brought up, people aren't looking to change other peoples' minds, they are looking to get them to think metacognitively about their attraction patterns. And when they fail to do so, it is particularly disappointing because it ensures that disenfranchisement of gay ethnic minorities will continue.

    You meet lots of guys who break the mold, and don't fall into preference traps, but it would be helpful to discuss how these preferences develop. For example, it's widely noted among gay minorities that closeted gay white men are much more open to dating them. It is theorized that it is the exposure to gay culture that leads them to believe that they should only associate themselves romantically and sexually with other white men.
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    Apr 08, 2013 5:22 PM GMT
    ART_DECO said
    WrestleMan said
    Because no matter what facet of society you are in there will always be something to remind you of your skin color. Speaking for myself and in this is STRICTLY my opinion..but I feel the mainstream gay community is VICIOUSLY Racist and in extreme subtle ways (to the point where most people just deny it). Now of course, NOT ALL non-black gays are racist but I would imagine, for normal gay males, who happen to be Black his dating options are smaller than blondie blue eyed from France. As a result, his race results in a slightly altered experience or lack there of when compared to his mainstream counterparts. Which is why i'd say Black comes before Gay, cause, gay or not..you're still Black..and the homosexual community does a great job at reminding us of that.

    Interesting. I'm not in any minority, other than being gay, so I can't claim those experiences myself. Nor can I address the OP's question.

    What I do see in our little gay world of Wilton Manors is guys & girls of all kinds hanging around together, being BFs and partners, socializing in every way. In restaurants and bars I'll see groups together that include Asians, Blacks, Latinos, Whites, even Indians from our local tribes. And more often than not to my observation, if one of the minorities is partnered it'll be with a White. So I don't see and hear a lot of racial hatred or division in this particular gay community, not even in private conversations.

    BUT, I know I don't see everything that's going on, even here, much less in the rest of the US. And I'd be unlikely to see or hear the bad experiences minorities have, I only witness the good things in my own daily life and social circles. It raises the danger of having a rose-tinted view of this issue.

    So I welcome your personal insights. It's a problem I don't witness and so it takes someone else to inform me, as I'm sure you've informed some others of us here today. I'm just surprised the problem is quite as extreme & wide-spread as you state, and would be interested in hearing more about this. Thanks


    are you kidding me? Art? You have a wealth of knowledge to share about what it means to be in the service, and to be an older gentlemen. You are just as much a valuable part of this conversation as anyone. icon_smile.gif
  • killercliche

    Posts: 948

    Apr 08, 2013 6:56 PM GMT
    O__O said
    ART_DECO said
    WrestleMan said

    The frustration is that most people are unwilling to acknowledge that pro white attraction bias is manufactured.....which kind of implies that it's innate.......which is horrifically offensive. Often times when issues of race a brought up, people aren't looking to change other peoples' minds, they are looking to get them to think metacognitively about their attraction patterns. And when they fail to do so, it is particularly disappointing because it ensures that disenfranchisement of gay ethnic minorities will continue.
    .



    While I wouldn't refute that in America caucasions are more often seen as the beauty figures of society, there have certainly been very famous non-white models actors etc for quite some time now as well.

    I would be happy to agree that physical attraction can be learned to some extent. I could see the rationale of a white male, surrounded by white relatives, and white peers, would be attracted to other white males since that would be the beauty standard he is exposed to most and is also the aesthetic he is surrounded by and comfortable with.

    However, this does make it more complicated to theorize on why so many non-whites covet the white male as they seem to on these boards. One would assume they would be predisposed to liking men with similar ethnic features as themselves through their upbringing, no?


    I wonder if, perhaps said groups might grow to be somewhat racist against their own ethnic group on account of said ethnic group's bias towards homosexuals (I remember a large part of prop 8 passing had to do with the larger turn out of black voters who most often would vote for obama and against gay rights)??
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    Apr 08, 2013 8:51 PM GMT
    i agree with the person that said i am me first. i am aware and acknowledge that i'm a black gay man but i don't let those qualities control me where i revolve my life around that.
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    Apr 08, 2013 10:17 PM GMT
    The US is a hell of a sick country. Not saying that racism doesn't exist anywhere else but nothing like there.

    EDIT:
    I might add that in my case, and b/c even if in my country there are some racist people, I would be gay first. Maybe it's just b/c of that... Since race is not as important here as it is in the US (Again, SICK COUNTRY) I related myself very close to my identity as a gay man.
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    Apr 08, 2013 10:37 PM GMT
    Sometimes I feel like my gay identity is more important than my Jewish identity, and sometimes I think the opposite. It depends on the context.

    Lately, being recently single, I'm finding the gay identity being much more in the forefront for me.

    On the other hand, the fact that the Jewish community (at least the liberal Jewish community in which I'm most involved) has become increasingly pro-GLBT equality has made me much less conscious of and focused on my gay identity when I'm involved with Jewish community matters.
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    Apr 09, 2013 12:36 AM GMT
    O__O said
    are you kidding me? Art? You have a wealth of knowledge to share about what it means to be in the service, and to be an older gentlemen. You are just as much a valuable part of this conversation as anyone. icon_smile.gif

    Thanks. But not on this topic. I can have sympathy with minority races, but not empathy in the strictest sense. I can't walk in their shoes, wear their skin color or be whatever it is that has classified them as a minority.

    So that my knowledge is observational, not participational. And as I noted above, that approach has major limitations for the non-minority person, who shouldn't be misled by what he thinks he sees around him.

    At the same time, you made me think that I may indeed be a minority person after all, when you called me an "older gentlemen". (That's the nicest way anyone has mentioned my age to me here in a very long time. icon_biggrin.gif )

    Not a minority in the general population so much, which is aging, but in the gay community. We've had forum discussions regarding age discrimination among gays, and the cult of youth that disadvantages older guys, many younger than me but still labeled prematurely as "old".

    Still, I'm not complaining. I've done pretty well, 2 husbands since my early 50s, with one still in my bed, so I guess some disadvantages can be overcome.
  • BIG_N_TALL

    Posts: 2190

    Apr 09, 2013 12:38 AM GMT
    No