eating after workouts ending at suppertime

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 14, 2013 11:04 PM GMT
    The time I get to work out ends at around suppertime (5:30PM earliest, to 6:30 PM). How should I eat after this? Incidentally, I am a hardgainer.

    An hour before my WO, (4:00PM or so), I drink 20 g whey protein in water, and eat an apple with almond butter (total about 20 g carb, 8 grams fat). My work out is an hour.

    A trainer I consult says to take 40g protein in a organic fruit juice (blueberry pomegranate is good) immediately after finishing my workout. (I add a tablespoon of almond butter with that). Then I can eat my supper when I feel like it after that, and I really don't want to eat my supper late, plus I take meds with my supper, solid food. It makes me eat about a half an hour or sometimes a little longer after I take that shake. Ugh. It's too much.

    I just want to get the right nutritional support (food: protein, carb, fat) after my workout AND for my supper. If I combine the two and just eat supper, I lose the extra protein, etc. that I would take if I worked out some other part of the day not near meals.

    I am not discouraging anyone from answering, but I would particularly like to hear from experienced serious bodybuilders. Thanks.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Apr 15, 2013 6:23 AM GMT
    timct said
    A trainer I consult says to take 40g protein in a organic fruit juice (blueberry pomegranate is good) immediately after finishing my workout. (I add a tablespoon of almond butter with that). Then I can eat my supper when I feel like it after that, and I really don't want to eat my supper late, plus I take meds with my supper, solid food. It makes me eat about a half an hour or sometimes a little longer after I take that shake. Ugh. It's too much.


    So why don't you eat your supper and your protein shake after your workout and be done with it?
  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Apr 15, 2013 6:51 AM GMT
    That's too much protein in a dose anyways. Better to take 20g right away as whey, then another 20g as casein or something before bed. The body can only absorb and process so much so fast. Anything excess is wasteful, and way too much can damage.

    Huge note here: trainers are not dietitians, and are often completely untrained. I've heard some give false advice a lot, and occasionally dangerous advice. You need to research these things on your own too.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 16, 2013 1:21 AM GMT
    Medjai saidThat's too much protein in a dose anyways. Better to take 20g right away as whey, then another 20g as casein or something before bed. The body can only absorb and process so much so fast. Anything excess is wasteful, and way too much can damage.

    Huge note here: trainers are not dietitians, and are often completely untrained. I've heard some give false advice a lot, and occasionally dangerous advice. You need to research these things on your own too.


    I have and learned the same. That's why it made me wonder just like you. The trainer I consult is trained, and also learned as a student of Charles Poliquin, an Olympic trainer who is obsessed with the science of nutrition. Prior to telling me to take the amounts of protein/carb after a workout out, he told me first that what he was going to say will go against all I learned, but what I learned is not actually valid. He claims to have science behind it. That's the problem. With nutrition, everyone almost has science behind it. While the trainer I consult knows a lot about nutrition, he doesn't know it all. Thanks for you input. I will reconsider it.

    His advice was to take the 40g protein and 40 g carb shake with no fat, so the carbs are readily used as they are needed so much after the WO. I added the almond butter (to slow down the carb spike and for nutritional balance) because I was worried and still am about the carb spike and the glycemic level. Anyone with ideas on the carb spike and high glycemic level of the shake (from the juice)? Don't want potential insulin highs and lows. Or does that not matter because it is after a workout, when the carbs are needed to be available quickly?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 16, 2013 1:31 AM GMT
    I thought it was good to get a glycemic spike right after working out? Maybe someone more knowledgeable can comment on that.

    But as far as supper, maybe you could have a slow digesting protein like cottage cheese and non starchy veggies right before bedtime?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 16, 2013 1:42 AM GMT
    To keep your blood sugar steady you can eat about 1/4 cup of sugar-free Jello before meals. I do that before most meals...epecially ones with plenty of carbs.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Apr 16, 2013 3:08 AM GMT
    Medjai saidThe body can only absorb and process so much so fast. Anything excess is wasteful, and way too much can damage.


    This is a huge broscience myth that people need to quit peddling. Your body does not care when you get your protein as long as you get it.

    Martin Berkham and his clients disproved this one with the Leangains method years ago.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Apr 16, 2013 3:12 AM GMT
    bosjock90 saidYour body can, on average, only absorb 30g of protein every 2-3 hours.


    Needs to be restated: this is broscience. False false false:

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top-ten-fasting-myths-debunked.html

    http://www.liftbigeatbig.com/2011/10/protein-absorption-myth-of-30-grams.html

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hst3.htm

    mythbusters-protein-myths.html
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 16, 2013 2:31 PM GMT
    Thanks for the informative responses, and all are informative. I look forward to reading more on your thoughts.



  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Apr 16, 2013 3:09 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    Medjai saidThe body can only absorb and process so much so fast. Anything excess is wasteful, and way too much can damage.


    This is a huge broscience myth that people need to quit peddling. Your body does not care when you get your protein as long as you get it.

    Martin Berkham and his clients disproved this one with the Leangains method years ago.


    I just wrote a paper on this exact subject. There is a ceiling to how much the body can absorb and use effectively. It is not broscience.

    The limit to the absorption exists, but the limit you hit faster is what the liver is able to process, and the kidneys are able to fitter. If you go to fast, you'll suffer from organ damage, and get hyperammonemia, which can do some pretty terrible things.

    timct, if your trainer s claiming to have scientific support, ask him to supply it. He may have something, but you have a right to know the source, because he could be hurting you a lot.

    There is also a huge effect on digestive flora when eating high protein. It can be very... Undesirable.
  • He_Man

    Posts: 906

    Apr 16, 2013 3:44 PM GMT
    I used to be a big proponent of utilizing the "anabolic window " and "anabolic/metabolic dieting," whereby you eat the majority of your caloric intake, carbs and proteins post workout, but new studies are showing that the post-workout nutrient timing, i.e., "anabolic window," is somewhat of a myth. Pre-workout nutrition is just as important, if not more so for activating an anabolic effect and preventing the rise in AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK), thus increasing post exercise anabolism.

    www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5

    www.jissn.com/content/10/1/5

    Here's the abstract to the study published in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition 2013, and it's worth a quick glance for those of us interested in the topic.

    Abstract

    Nutrient timing is a popular nutritional strategy that involves the consumption of combinations of nutrients--primarily protein and carbohydrate--in and around an exercise session. Some have claimed that this approach can produce dramatic improvements in body composition. It has even been postulated that the timing of nutritional consumption may be more important than the absolute daily intake of nutrients. The post-exercise period is widely considered the most critical part of nutrient timing. Theoretically, consuming the proper ratio of nutrients during this time not only initiates the rebuilding of damaged muscle tissue and restoration of energy reserves, but it does so in a supercompensated fashion that enhances both body composition and exercise performance. Several researchers have made reference to an anabolic “window of opportunity” whereby a limited time exists after training to optimize training-related muscular adaptations. However, the importance - and even the existence - of a post-exercise ‘window’ can vary according to a number of factors. Not only is nutrient timing research open to question in terms of applicability, but recent evidence has directly challenged the classical view of the relevance of post-exercise nutritional intake with respect to anabolism. Therefore, the purpose of this paper will be twofold: 1) to review the existing literature on the effects of nutrient timing with respect to post-exercise muscular adaptations, and; 2) to draw relevant conclusions that allow practical, evidence-based nutritional recommendations to be made for maximizing the anabolic response to exercise.


  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Apr 16, 2013 4:28 PM GMT
    He_Man saidI used to be a big proponent of utilizing the "anabolic window " and "anabolic/metabolic dieting," whereby you eat the majority of your caloric intake, carbs and proteins post workout, but new studies are showing that the post-workout nutrient timing, i.e., "anabolic window," is somewhat of a myth.


    By "used to," do you mean four days ago when you recommended I take advantage of the anabolic window post-workout?

    Although I appreciated the advice given, I can empathize with timct's difficulty knowing what advice to take to heart. Seems even the experts change their minds frequently. And some of them are doing things that are downright dangerous, like the two personal trainers I know who suffered strokes because of the way they were supplementing.

    Perhaps the best idea is to get advice from someone who both looks the way you want to look and is in good overall health as well, so you know the gains are not merely superficial.
  • spacemagic

    Posts: 520

    Apr 16, 2013 4:38 PM GMT
    Good God. I just realized this thread is the same concept as WoW nerds min/maxing their stats.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Apr 16, 2013 4:40 PM GMT
    Medjai said
    TroyAthlete said
    Medjai saidThe body can only absorb and process so much so fast. Anything excess is wasteful, and way too much can damage.


    This is a huge broscience myth that people need to quit peddling. Your body does not care when you get your protein as long as you get it.

    Martin Berkham and his clients disproved this one with the Leangains method years ago.


    I just wrote a paper on this exact subject. There is a ceiling to how much the body can absorb and use effectively. It is not broscience.


    People write lots of ridiculous papers. Care to publish yours here for review? What scholarly peer-reviewed articles using up-to-date scientific research did you cite in your paper? Do tell (abahahahahaha).

    Do you think if you were starving and finally got a chance to have a meal with 100 grams of protein your body's sophisticated digestive system with its millions of years of evolution would simply throw away 70% of those desperately needed nutrients?

    Do you think our hunter-gatherer ancestors who never knew when the next bison kill was coming only ate or absorbed 30g of protein per sitting, and that their bodies tossed the rest?

    The 30-40g absorption myth remains one of the persistent myths in bodybuilding, precisely because people cling to it without a shred of research to back it up. It's not only broscience it's total bullshit. The body CAN aborb and/or store more than 40g of protein per sitting.

    Can't wait to see this paper. Pfft.
  • He_Man

    Posts: 906

    Apr 16, 2013 4:42 PM GMT
    shortbutsweet said
    He_Man saidI used to be a big proponent of utilizing the "anabolic window " and "anabolic/metabolic dieting," whereby you eat the majority of your caloric intake, carbs and proteins post workout, but new studies are showing that the post-workout nutrient timing, i.e., "anabolic window," is somewhat of a myth.


    By "used to," do you mean four days ago when you recommended I take advantage of the anabolic window post-workout?

    Although I appreciated the advice given, I can empathize with timct's difficulty knowing what advice to take to heart. Seems even the experts change their minds frequently. And some of them are doing things that are downright dangerous, like the two personal trainers I know who suffered strokes because of the way they were supplementing.

    Perhaps the best idea is to get advice from someone who both looks the way you want to look and is in good overall health as well, so you know the gains are not merely superficial.


    Hahaha... Actually, yes, in a way, because I was doing a little research after I left that comment about the "anabolic window" and found a lot of research that "fixed" our views regarding the "anabolic window," mainly, that it's still good advice to consume high carbs and protein after working out, but research is showing that pre-work out nutrition may be more important to keeping our bodies in a post-workout anabolic state.

    I'm not saying to trash the idea of an "anabolic window," and I still think that the timing after working is important, but consuming carbs and protein before your workout is just as important, if not more so based on current research, especially for preventing the rise in AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK), which elevates cortisol levels and cause you to become catabolic.

    No one is saying that we should eliminate the "anabolic window" or stop doing a metabolic diet-like program, but we should tweak it just a little and add in a pre-workout carb/protein supplement or meal along with our post-workout supplement or meal.

    That's the beauty of science (or some would say the headache of science) - it keeps changing as new information and research comes out.
  • Medjai

    Posts: 2671

    Apr 16, 2013 4:44 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete saidPeople write lots of ridiculous papers. Care to publish yours here for review? What scholarly peer-reviewed articles using up-to-date scientific research did you cite in your paper? Do tell (abahahahahaha).

    Do you think if you were starving and finally got a chance to have a meal with 100 grams of protein your body's sophisticated digestive system with its millions of years of evolution would simply throw away 70% of those desperately needed nutrients?

    Do you think our hunter-gatherer ancestors who never knew when the next bison kill was coming only ate or absorbed 30g of protein per sitting, and that their bodies tossed the rest?

    The 30-40g absorption myth remains one of the persistent myths in bodybuilding, precisely because people cling to it without a shred of research to back it up. It's not only broscience it's total bullshit. The body CAN aborb and/or store more than 40g of protein per sitting.

    Can't wait to see this paper. Pfft.


    I'm not posting the whole paper here, but I will post a summary when I get a chance to write it out between study sessions.

    However, I will challenge you to make the same request you made of me. Peer reviewed sourcing. If you're going to demand it of me, you definitely need to do better than bodybuilding.com.

    You could also afford to talk a little more respectfully. In an academic exchange, you get a lot more credibility when you don't belittle. And when you use more than flawed anecdotes to make a point.