Sissies are often the biggest sissyphobes of all...

  • woow

    Posts: 61

    Apr 15, 2013 9:41 PM GMT
    http://www.mikealvear.com/2009/05/05/why-arent-nelly-guys-attracted-to-each-other/
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Apr 15, 2013 9:50 PM GMT
    mfw+eating+popcorn+_1414f3a446e62f496aa0
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    Apr 16, 2013 2:38 AM GMT
    yes i noticed that
    infact all homophobes are gays themselves or else why would a straight think about gays & thier world

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    Apr 16, 2013 2:43 AM GMT
    Agreed 100% those so called masc guys are indeed not masc.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Apr 16, 2013 3:04 AM GMT
    It's an interesting article, but its premise is off. I thought it was going to ask why effeminate guys devalue each other in terms of attraction, and instead it wonders why effeminate guys don't become more masculine to attract the masculine dudes they (allegedly) crave.

    It's a strange argument. Most effeminate guys are naturally so, this article presumes otherwise incorrectly. Yes, if effeminate dudes could willfully decrease their effeminacy, then it makes no sense that they are becoming the opposite of what they attract. But they can't.

    This is like writing an article claiming that a Latino who was into Asians is crazy for not becoming Asian. He has no control over that.
  • killercliche

    Posts: 948

    Apr 16, 2013 3:17 AM GMT
    TroyAthlete saidIt's an interesting article, but its premise is off. I thought it was going to ask why effeminate guys devalue each other in terms of attraction, and instead it wonders why effeminate guys don't become more masculine to attract the masculine dudes they (allegedly) crave.

    It's a strange argument. Most effeminate guys are naturally so, this article presumes otherwise incorrectly. Yes, if effeminate dudes could willfully decrease their effeminacy, then it makes no sense that they are becoming the opposite of what they attract. But they can't.

    This is like writing an article claiming that a Latino who was into Asians is crazy for not becoming Asian. He has no control over that.


    Except that a Latino was literally born a Latino. Most things that make a person appear effeminate are chosen physical stylings and learn mannerisms and behaviors. Certainly not easy to unlearn and relearn but definitely possible.
  • chris_hasting...

    Posts: 197

    Apr 16, 2013 3:26 AM GMT
    i realize that a certain amount of girliness comes with certain guys but they tend to take it to even more extreme levels, for instance i had this friend that when i first met him he was normal, a little femme sounding but otherwise average, fast forward a year and he's got steps shaved into his super dyed emo hair, is wearing the tightest and weirdest womens clothing ever, and is basically an overdramatic girl.... can't even hang out with him anymore.
  • Jerebear

    Posts: 329

    Apr 16, 2013 3:47 AM GMT
    This article is full of confirmation bias. In other words, its bullshit.

    If you are unaware of your own confirmation bias, you'll never be able to see this for what it is, and the stereotypes will keep getting confirmed over and over again. There is nothing wrong with effeminate men, they do not all like the same type of guys, and they should not change themselves in any way.
  • kevmoran

    Posts: 1543

    Apr 16, 2013 3:58 AM GMT
    I don't feel like I even need to point out why this article is ridiculous. But I guess I can be the token nelly here. I do not want to be feminine (looking or behaving), I do not try to be feminine, it's just what I gravitate towards. I would much rather I was a big hairy masculine guy that loved football and cars, but I'm just not. I can fake it, and did for years, but it's hard hiding your entire personality behind another personality.

    That's also why guys appear to "become" feminine. This isn't a new behavior that they are coming up with, it's just them becoming more confident in their real personality.

    That's not to say there aren't drama queens and people that do things for attention, but that bird flies both directions. Not to start a flamewar on a fitness site, but bodybuilders are not gaining muscle just so they can lift heavy things. Getting attention is definitely a factor.
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    Apr 16, 2013 4:00 AM GMT
    TroyAthlete saidIt's an interesting article, but its premise is off. I thought it was going to ask why effeminate guys devalue each other in terms of attraction, and instead it wonders why effeminate guys don't become more masculine to attract the masculine dudes they (allegedly) crave.

    It's a strange argument. Most effeminate guys are naturally so, this article presumes otherwise incorrectly. Yes, if effeminate dudes could willfully decrease their effeminacy, then it makes no sense that they are becoming the opposite of what they attract. But they can't.

    This is like writing an article claiming that a Latino who was into Asians is crazy for not becoming Asian. He has no control over that.


    Agreed, except for the part about it being an interesting article.

    The idea that you should become what you want to attract is idiotic, even if you could.

    Some gay men may want clones of themselves, but I believe they are in the minority.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Apr 16, 2013 4:27 AM GMT
    a look, a rant by dumb people for dumb people
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    Apr 16, 2013 4:35 AM GMT
    shortbutsweet said

    The idea that you should become what you want to attract is idiotic, even if you could.

    Some gay men may want clones of themselves, but I believe they are in the minority.


    icon_eek.gif

    You've seen gay couples, right?
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    Apr 16, 2013 4:53 AM GMT
    Larkin said
    shortbutsweet said

    The idea that you should become what you want to attract is idiotic, even if you could.

    Some gay men may want clones of themselves, but I believe they are in the minority.


    icon_eek.gif

    You've seen gay couples, right?


    The vast majority of couples I've encountered -- whether gay, straight, or lesbian -- consist of one partner who is more masculine and one partner who is more feminine.

    People who deny this basic fact are usually str8-actors who are ashamed that they want to be fucked.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Apr 16, 2013 5:06 AM GMT
    killercliche said
    TroyAthlete saidIt's an interesting article, but its premise is off. I thought it was going to ask why effeminate guys devalue each other in terms of attraction, and instead it wonders why effeminate guys don't become more masculine to attract the masculine dudes they (allegedly) crave.

    It's a strange argument. Most effeminate guys are naturally so, this article presumes otherwise incorrectly. Yes, if effeminate dudes could willfully decrease their effeminacy, then it makes no sense that they are becoming the opposite of what they attract. But they can't.

    This is like writing an article claiming that a Latino who was into Asians is crazy for not becoming Asian. He has no control over that.


    Except that a Latino was literally born a Latino. Most things that make a person appear effeminate are chosen physical stylings and learn mannerisms and behaviors. Certainly not easy to unlearn and relearn but definitely possible.


    Except that effeminate guys are "literally" born effeminate. Most things like what? You're talking about cultural stereotypes, not effeminacy. There are four year-old boys who are swishy, they have't learn anything about any stylings.

    I need to lookup the study where in people were shown silhouettes of figures walking moving only their feet and could accurately tell which ones were gay or not. In a similar study, people were shown vold home ideo of little kids playing and just as accurately predicted correctly which ones turned out to be gay and straight by rating their masculinity and femininity. Are you suggesting an effeminate toddler has learned and chosen "stylings and mannerisms" by age three? That's ridiculous.

    EDIT: Couldn't find the original study, but found a clip about it on YouTube.

  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Apr 16, 2013 5:18 AM GMT
    shortbutsweet said
    Larkin said
    shortbutsweet said

    The idea that you should become what you want to attract is idiotic, even if you could.

    Some gay men may want clones of themselves, but I believe they are in the minority.


    icon_eek.gif

    You've seen gay couples, right?


    The vast majority of couples I've encountered -- whether gay, straight, or lesbian -- consist of one partner who is more masculine and one partner who is more feminine.


    I don't think Larkin's point is disproven though. He was referring specifically to gay couples and the vast majority of gay couples are very much alike. Obviously no two people are identical, but gay men tend to go for same overall relative to who they choose not to date.

    If you rate masculinity on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being very masculine and 10 being very femininine, well yeah if a 1 dates a 3, one is obviously more masculine than the other. Larkin's point is that 1s are not dating 9s and 10s, and moreover we tend to date lookalikes (contrast this with your stereotypical lesbian couple).

    The "twin" effect is definitely more pronounced in gay couples as opposed to straight couples, because men and women have so many physiological differences.
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    Apr 16, 2013 5:24 AM GMT
    OMG the comments on the article
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    Apr 16, 2013 5:48 AM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    shortbutsweet said
    Larkin said
    shortbutsweet said

    The idea that you should become what you want to attract is idiotic, even if you could.

    Some gay men may want clones of themselves, but I believe they are in the minority.


    icon_eek.gif

    You've seen gay couples, right?


    The vast majority of couples I've encountered -- whether gay, straight, or lesbian -- consist of one partner who is more masculine and one partner who is more feminine.


    I don't think Larkin's point is disproven though. He was referring specifically to gay couples and the vast majority of gay couples are very much alike. Obviously no two people are identical, but gay men tend to go for same overall relative to who they choose not to date.

    If you rate masculinity on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being very masculine and 10 being very femininine, well yeah if a 1 dates a 3, one is obviously more masculine than the other. Larkin's point is that 1s are not dating 9s and 10s, and moreover we tend to date lookalikes (contrast this with your stereotypical lesbian couple).

    The "twin" effect is definitely more pronounced in gay couples as opposed to straight couples, because men and women have so many physiological differences.


    I don't know what Larkin's point was. He may have been just kidding. I can tell you that I wasn't talking about points on a scale relative to each other. I meant one partner is usually more masculine than average, the other more feminine than average. Other similarities are not relevant to this particular thread.

    Although by your measure 1s may not be dating 10s, I would venture to say those at the extreme ends of the spectrum are not dating anyone.
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    Apr 16, 2013 7:17 AM GMT
    kevmoran said

    That's not to say there aren't drama queens and people that do things for attention, but that bird flies both directions. Not to start a flamewar on a fitness site, but bodybuilders are not gaining muscle just so they can lift heavy things. Getting attention is definitely a factor.


    I dont necessarily see it as attention, but bodybuilding for some could be about competition, security guards, wrestling, UFC fights, and some just for the fun of it. I can agree to a point that most men use fitness as an edge to get approval in the gay community as the so called "hot commodity".
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Apr 16, 2013 8:03 AM GMT
    shortbutsweet saidI meant one partner is usually more masculine than average, the other more feminine than average.


    Hmmm, this has not been my experience with gay couples at all. I know of plenty of feminine dudes who want (and are typically unable to) date relatively feminine guys, but I don't know of many "more masculine than average" gays who have or would want to couple off with "more feminine than average" gays. Actually, I don't know of any. I thought maybe it was a generational thing, but even thinking across ages the twinning of gays holds true.

  • killercliche

    Posts: 948

    Apr 16, 2013 8:20 AM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    killercliche said
    TroyAthlete saidIt's an interesting article, but its premise is off. I thought it was going to ask why effeminate guys devalue each other in terms of attraction, and instead it wonders why effeminate guys don't become more masculine to attract the masculine dudes they (allegedly) crave.

    It's a strange argument. Most effeminate guys are naturally so, this article presumes otherwise incorrectly. Yes, if effeminate dudes could willfully decrease their effeminacy, then it makes no sense that they are becoming the opposite of what they attract. But they can't.

    This is like writing an article claiming that a Latino who was into Asians is crazy for not becoming Asian. He has no control over that.


    Except that a Latino was literally born a Latino. Most things that make a person appear effeminate are chosen physical stylings and learn mannerisms and behaviors. Certainly not easy to unlearn and relearn but definitely possible.


    Except that effeminate guys are "literally" born effeminate. Most things like what? You're talking about cultural stereotypes, not effeminacy. There are four year-old boys who are swishy, they have't learn anything about any stylings.

    I need to lookup the study where in people were shown silhouettes of figures walking moving only their feet and could accurately tell which ones were gay or not. In a similar study, people were shown vold home ideo of little kids playing and just as accurately predicted correctly which ones turned out to be gay and straight by rating their masculinity and femininity. Are you suggesting an effeminate toddler has learned and chosen "stylings and mannerisms" by age three? That's ridiculous.

    EDIT: Couldn't find the original study, but found a clip about it on YouTube.




    Those children, particularly the gay male are quite old. Here's a reference from healthchildren.org. some basic knowledge on child development:

    "A child's awareness of being a boy or a girl starts in the first year of life. It often begins by eight to ten months of age, when youngsters typ­ically discover their genitals. Then, between one and two years old, children become conscious of physical differences between boys and girls; before their third birthday they are easily able to label themselves as either a boy or a girl as they acquire a strong concept of self. By age four, children's gender identity is stable, and they know they will always be a boy or a girl.

    During this same time of life, children learn gender role behavior—that is, do­ing things "that boys do" or "that girls do." Before the age of three they can dif­ferentiate sex-stereotyped toys (trucks, dolls) that are identified with boys or girls. By three years of age they have also become more aware of boy and girl ac­tivities, interests, and occupations; many begin to play with youngsters of their own sex in activities identified with that sex. For example, you probably saw your daughter gravitating toward dolls, playing house, and baking. By contrast, your son may have played more aggressive and active games and might have been attracted to toy soldiers and toy trucks. These gender role behaviors, in­cluding the toys children play with and activities, in which they engage, are in­fluenced by how youngsters are raised and what expectations are made of them."

    As you can see, by age three, young children are clearly aware of the gender roles of its given society. So yes, that child is NOT born with traits from the opposite gender but has in fact learned them. I always find it funny how dismissive people are of the intelligence and complexity of the infant mind.


    As to the actually article, it's a dating advice article. I wouldnt be surprised if it had no actual data behind it, but the site is all about helping the lonely gay man find a date. In this case it is helping the lonely effeminate gay guy land the football team's quaterback. It's quite daft, but it's not a yearning entirely not seen in the gay culture that I am privy to.
  • killercliche

    Posts: 948

    Apr 16, 2013 8:23 AM GMT
    RoadsterRacer87 saidOMG the comments on the article


    This one is my favorite:

    "I am an ultra feminine crossdressing male. I am totally attracted to dominant, masculine men. The more masculine they are the better I like them. I began crossdressing when I spent 8 years in state prison. In there feminine crossdressers get lots of male attention. Upon my release from prison I discovered that the only thing that approximates the prison experience sexually was adult bookstore video arcades. I loiter in these arcades wearing wigs, high heels, and string bikinis and I pick up men and take them to a preview booth for sex. I have no lack of masculine men to accompany me to the booths. In fact many of them are married."

    In your face, Mike Alvear.
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    Apr 16, 2013 8:52 AM GMT
    chris_hastings1 saidi realize that a certain amount of girliness comes with certain guys but they tend to take it to even more extreme levels, for instance i had this friend that when i first met him he was normal, a little femme sounding but otherwise average, fast forward a year and he's got steps shaved into his super dyed emo hair, is wearing the tightest and weirdest womens clothing ever, and is basically an overdramatic girl.... can't even hang out with him anymore.


    What's the difference between that and a jock who was just a little bit of a jock but otherwise average becoming a total jock a year later, drinking power drinks at the local gym and proudly showing off his newly enlarged and naked pecs, and wearing skimpy gym shorts that show his now bulging thighs?

    I really don't understand your reasoning.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Apr 16, 2013 9:38 AM GMT
    killercliche saidAs you can see, by age three, young children are clearly aware of the gender roles of its given society. So yes, that child is NOT born with traits from the opposite gender but has in fact learned them. I always find it funny how dismissive people are of the intelligence and complexity of the infant mind.


    The human brain is complex from birth, sure, but not relative to the intelligence of complexity of the mind of a 30 year old drag queen. Not even close. Nobody is going to confuse healthchildren.org (is that even a working website?) with the peer-reviewed research referenced in the 60 Minutes clip above.

    That said, your article is talking about behavior, not biology -- you like the author of the article originally referenced -- have conflated and thus confused the two.

    What you are suggesting is that masculinity and femininity have no biological roots in utero, that exposure to testosterone and estrogen prenatally have no outcome in that child's eventual self-identification, and that that the efects of testosterone and estrogen pre- and post-natally can be completely masked by learning. All of this is nakedly false.

    Obviously both nature and nurture play a role, but social learning theory vis a vis playing with trucks and dolls (behavior) does not have to correlate 1:1 with innate masculinity and femininity based on sex hormone levels (biology); you teach a naturally masculine boy to play with dolls but by adulthood he will still be more masculine that a estrogen-laced boy who grew up playing with trucks.

    Children are NOT born genderless a blank state upon which society thrusts masculinity and femininity. They have sex hormones, and this varies from person to person. Take a little estrogen-high gay boy and raise him in the woods away from society -- you will not ever completely disabuse him of the effects of estrogen and turn him into Mr. Macho Man, sorry!
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    Apr 16, 2013 9:47 AM GMT
    need50plusmuscleman said
    chris_hastings1 saidi realize that a certain amount of girliness comes with certain guys but they tend to take it to even more extreme levels, for instance i had this friend that when i first met him he was normal, a little femme sounding but otherwise average, fast forward a year and he's got steps shaved into his super dyed emo hair, is wearing the tightest and weirdest womens clothing ever, and is basically an overdramatic girl.... can't even hang out with him anymore.


    What's the difference between that and a jock who was just a little bit of a jock but otherwise average becoming a total jock a year later, drinking power drinks at the local gym and proudly showing off his newly enlarged and naked pecs, and wearing skimpy gym shorts that show his now bulging thighs?

    I really don't understand your reasoning.




    Because as a society we value masculinity over femininity. I mean why do we love lesbians in this society? Because they are doing the 'male thing' of boning another woman. It feeds the male ego. But hell I know a lot of gay men who don't like anal sex or anything at all near their butt.

    As far as twining I think it depends on what you are exposed to. Personally I don't ever see myself long term being with another black of any body type. It's not that I don't like them and if one I liked like me then cool. But I tend to go for people who are intellectually similar to myself and I guess that's a form of twinning. I know some white gays who would never be with another white man because they honestly feel like they have more in common with black men. I see masculine men who love feminine men because although they don't want women they are attracted to someone who is their gender role opposite but in a respect just like them because the other man is looking for another man that wants a relationship that has the feminine masculine balance.
  • BloodFlame

    Posts: 1768

    Apr 16, 2013 10:02 AM GMT
    It's such a shame that this kind of stigma will forever be part of the gay community for eternity. The whole masculine vs feminine thing.

    I read the article and there is a little truth to it. It does feel like every man wants a "straight acting" man. And the feminine or remotely feminine are the least desired. Of course, this is from my small experience (I still have a lot to learn and I can admit that).

    But from my experience, I've seen it a lot. "I hate faggy guys", "Only into masculine like myself" and such like that. On the net, in my experience, some people always refer to me as a black girl even though they have not yet talked to me. Yes my appearance is not masculine but I generally am not into the stereotypical gay stuff. I love rock/metal over pop, Joan Jett instead of Madonna, Wrestling/fighting fan, I don't think I sound like a fem but that could be debatable. Anyway, I usually turn the other cheek since I get my fair share of criticism but I can admit at times, I do feel a little down about myself.

    I will say that people are who they are. Yeah, some habits are learned but if the person likes who they are, who are you to put them down just because they are being themselves even if you personally don't find it attractive. Just stick to the type of guys you like. My advice would be to just be yourself. Yeah, you'll happen to have a lot of people hate you (especially if you have fem qualities) but at the end of the day, not everyone will hate and think of you as a freak.

    And as far as my personal attraction guys, I'm more drawn into guys who have both masculine and feminine traits. I can't see myself with an ultra masculine guy because for one, it would be rare to find someone like that who'd be into someone like me and also because i don't think I'd be able to give him the ultra masculinity he'd no doubt want. But I can't see myself with an ultra fem guy as well because I wouldn't have much in common with him either. So I feel a balance of both would be great for me.