10 Essential points about the Boston Marathon bombers, Islam, and America

  • metta

    Posts: 39143

    Apr 20, 2013 5:25 PM GMT
    10 Essential points about the Boston Marathon bombers, Islam, and America


    http://omidsafi.religionnews.com/2013/04/20/10-essential-points/




    9 questions about Chechnya and Dagestan you were too embarrassed to ask
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/04/19/9-questions-about-chechnya-and-dagestan-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask/


    What You Should Know About Chechnya as the Boston Story Unfolds


    "Most Chechen diasporans seek freedom, live in free countries, and understand the separation of mosque and state. Their qualities should be in demand, and their struggle is deserving of significant European assistance.

    To allow the Boston attacks to cast all Chechens as violent religious zealots is exactly what Putin needs. That will allow him to keep his deadly arrangement going. The supreme irony of Putin's PR strategy is that most Chechens share the democratic values of a Western civilization that completely disregards, and misunderstands, their struggle."


    http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/04/what-you-should-know-about-chechnya-as-the-boston-story-unfolds/275156/
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    Apr 20, 2013 5:36 PM GMT
    This is very true. It is not about Islam. To condemn Muslims / Islam is incorrect and also bigotry. Both were also male so you wouldn't condemn all males either.

    This though I disagree with a little:

    7) Political opportunism We are already seeing the calls by right-wing fanatics seeking to use this tragedy to advance their own political causes.

    Well I see the Democrats also doing this to get their gun control agenda passed also. Its too bad the person who wrote that article let his own politics mess up what was a very good article.

  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Apr 20, 2013 6:30 PM GMT
    in my mind it sucks for the author. It really does.

    I assume he is a muslim, unfortunately he ascribes to a relatively amorphous decentrilzed religion. With no figurehead . No "Pope" to denounce or endorse policy or view.

    What he expects us to do in his article is be superhuman. Humans use patterns in life and facts to analyze and guide future behavior. We would not have made it to this point if we judged every lion as just another creature of the forest until it bites us.

    So he should get off his high horse.

  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Apr 20, 2013 6:51 PM GMT
    yourname2000 said
    musclmed said....unfortunately he ascribes to a relatively amorphous decentrilzed religion. With no figurehead . No "Pope" to denounce or endorse policy or view.

    Agree 100%. The biggest problem with Islam for me is that anyone can say they interpret the Qur'an however they like and there's no one to say "actually, Mo' didn't mean that." So if an Imam says "kill anyone who disagrees with us", there's no one around to remind "no, we're supposed to be the religion of peace, remember?"

    I don't really hold out much hope for Islam until they get that part figured out. The idea that everyone in the world is (literally) held hostage to negotiate with each disparate (violent) faction is absurd: one religion should be able to muster one voice....Islam cannot, so it's hardly a religion of one god to me, which ultimately makes it false (you can't all be right. icon_rolleyes.gif )


    Convert them to Catholics. That's worked so well in the past!
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Apr 20, 2013 6:55 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    yourname2000 said
    musclmed said....unfortunately he ascribes to a relatively amorphous decentrilzed religion. With no figurehead . No "Pope" to denounce or endorse policy or view.

    Agree 100%. The biggest problem with Islam for me is that anyone can say they interpret the Qur'an however they like and there's no one to say "actually, Mo' didn't mean that." So if an Imam says "kill anyone who disagrees with us", there's no one around to remind "no, we're supposed to be the religion of peace, remember?"

    I don't really hold out much hope for Islam until they get that part figured out. The idea that everyone in the world is (literally) held hostage to negotiate with each disparate (violent) faction is absurd: one religion should be able to muster one voice....Islam cannot, so it's hardly a religion of one god to me, which ultimately makes it false (you can't all be right. icon_rolleyes.gif )


    Convert them to Catholics. That's worked so well in the past!


    And it worked both ways, in fact the Ottaman empire was a testament of what islam and a Islamic states says to non believers.

    Non muslims never existed in any Islamic state outside of being heavily taxed and treated as slaves.

    listen to the conversation between Ayaan Ali and Bill Mahrer
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ZEo7voCEM


  • metta

    Posts: 39143

    Apr 20, 2013 11:01 PM GMT
    547748_509350255768004_1599669789_n.jpg
  • tazzari

    Posts: 2937

    Apr 21, 2013 1:27 AM GMT
    Agree 100%. The biggest problem with Islam for me is that anyone can say they interpret the Qur'an however they like and there's no one to say "actually, Mo' didn't mean that." So if an Imam says "kill anyone who disagrees with us", there's no one around to remind "no, we're supposed to be the religion of peace, remember?"

    Pretty much the same with Christianity, too. There may be a Pope in "control" of part of it, but there are also Pat Robertsons and Westboro - all spewing intolerance. But - as with this article - there are also voices saying the opposite - so no one to say "It doesn't mean that" in any very definite way.

    There are some very good Muslims - I've met a few.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Apr 21, 2013 1:30 AM GMT
    tazzari saidAgree 100%. The biggest problem with Islam for me is that anyone can say they interpret the Qur'an however they like and there's no one to say "actually, Mo' didn't mean that." So if an Imam says "kill anyone who disagrees with us", there's no one around to remind "no, we're supposed to be the religion of peace, remember?"

    Pretty much the same with Christianity, too. There may be a Pope in "control" of part of it, but there are also Pat Robertsons and Westboro - all spewing intolerance. But - as with this article - there are also voices saying the opposite - so no one to say "It doesn't mean that" in any very definite way.

    There are some very good Muslims - I've met a few.


    there are many peaceful muslims, a Pew poll said 7% over 100 million were believed in global jihad.

    The verses that people pull from the Quuran to prove its peaceful nature is actually a flawed misrepresentation.

    Rushdi and others have brought this out and still have death threats out for them

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 21, 2013 7:28 AM GMT
    CharleyChase90232 saidThis is very true. It is not about Islam. To condemn Muslims / Islam is incorrect and also bigotry. Both were also male so you wouldn't condemn all males either.

    This though I disagree with a little:

    7) Political opportunism We are already seeing the calls by right-wing fanatics seeking to use this tragedy to advance their own political causes.

    Well I see the Democrats also doing this to get their gun control agenda passed also. Its too bad the person who wrote that article let his own politics mess up what was a very good article.

    very well said
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 21, 2013 7:31 AM GMT
    metta8 said547748_509350255768004_1599669789_n.jpg
    great pic.. Because I am a Syrian Jew...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 21, 2013 10:09 AM GMT
    yourname2000 said
    metta8 said547748_509350255768004_1599669789_n.jpg

    Oh brother. icon_rolleyes.gif

    For everyone of those, there's a hundred of these:

    muslims.jpg

    Rose coloured glasses aren't helping anyone see the world (and Islam) as it really is. icon_confused.gif

    rose%2520colored%2520glasses.jpg


    In other words, you're happy to lump all of them together, whatever they may think as individuals. You should be ashamed of yourself.
  • metta

    Posts: 39143

    Apr 21, 2013 3:42 PM GMT
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    Apr 21, 2013 5:12 PM GMT
    Except that WBS (and other similar) is all hot air as compared

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    scroll down for the daily tally
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Apr 21, 2013 5:45 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree saidExcept that WBS (and other similar) is all hot air as compared

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    scroll down for the daily tally


    I would argue the majority of Muslims are peaceful and good people.

    Pew poll said



    Pew poll muslim attitudes in US 2007 About a quarter (26%) of younger U.S. Muslims say suicide bombing can at least rarely be justified, 17 percentage points higher than the proportion of Muslims ages 30 and older (9%) who share that view.

    "17 percentage points higher than" in this case could also be expressed as "almost three times as likely as."

    Let's repeat: younger Muslims are almost three times as likely as older Muslims to say that suicide bombing can at least rarely be justified.

    They're also almost twice as likely (7% vs. 4%) to have a favorable view of Al Qaeda - yes, Al Qaeda, the group that killed 3,000 Americans on 9-11.

    This is the same pattern we see in Europe - where older Muslims appear to assimilate - but their children become radical. For example, here's a finding from a British poll from January of 2007:

    36% of 16 to 24-year-olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared with 19% of over-55s.



    7% of young muslims have a favorable view of Al-queda..... REALLY? no problem
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 21, 2013 6:11 PM GMT
    musclmed said
    Pew poll muslim attitudes in US 2007 About a quarter (26%) of younger U.S. Muslims say suicide bombing can at least rarely be justified, 17 percentage points higher than the proportion of Muslims ages 30 and older (9%) who share that view.

    "17 percentage points higher than" in this case could also be expressed as "almost three times as likely as."

    Let's repeat: younger Muslims are almost three times as likely as older Muslims to say that suicide bombing can at least rarely be justified.

    They're also almost twice as likely (7% vs. 4%) to have a favorable view of Al Qaeda - yes, Al Qaeda, the group that killed 3,000 Americans on 9-11.

    This is the same pattern we see in Europe - where older Muslims appear to assimilate - but their children become radical. For example, here's a finding from a British poll from January of 2007:

    36% of 16 to 24-year-olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared with 19% of over-55s.



    7% of young muslims have a favorable view of Al-queda..... REALLY? no problem


    There clearly is a problem and I have not heard anyone seriously argue there is not. One thing is for sure, the problem is unlikely to be resolved by branding all Muslims as latent terrorists, as some people here (not you) have done and which many non-Muslims ignorantly seem to believe.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Apr 21, 2013 6:49 PM GMT
    yourname2000 said
    Ex_Mil8 saidIn other words, you're happy to lump all of them together, whatever they may think as individuals. You should be ashamed of yourself.

    Or you're an idiot. From where I'm standing, the answer to that one is obvious. icon_rolleyes.gif


    thanks i block him for sometime anyway.

    I do not want to lump anyone together. But to say there is no problem is naive.

    Considering many say as a defense Islam is a religion of peace. In my opinion its less about peace and more about domination.

    Without regard to Islam, muslims are mostly peaceful because most humans in society are. I do not think its a particular trait , and is a pretty feeble defense.

    Islam needs to rehabilitate itself somehow, and since it is not centralized I do not see it to be an easy task.

    The criticism here is the "lumping" together of people in one group. Every time there is a terrorist attack do we have to go through this tired rhetorical "Islam is a religion of peace" slogan?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 21, 2013 7:01 PM GMT
    freedomisntfree saidExcept that WBS (and other similar) is all hot air as compared

    http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    scroll down for the daily tally


    I'd hazard a guess that the Islamic version of Westboro is gigantic and powerful and the reasonable sects of Islam are minorities that are actively persecuted by the Islam-westboros.

    Like so: from 2005 and an enlightening read.

    http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GC11Df06.html

    "Ismailis regard themselves as "proper Muslims". However, Sunnis and Shi'ites in Pakistan (and other countries where Ismailis live) believe they are "different". For one, they seem quite "Westernized". Ismaili women are not expected to wear the burqa (veil). In their congregation halls, women pray alongside men - on separate but similar and adjacent carpets, denoting equality between the sexes. The schools run by Ismailis are co-educational. A distinct Hindu influence is also discernible in their style of worship. They sing hymns while praying and believe in reincarnation."

    ....and more:

    "The violent targeting of Ismailis comes against a backdrop of growing anti-Ismaili feelings. This should be viewed in the context of post-September 11, 2001, anti-Western/Christian feelings among Sunni hardliners in Pakistan. Sunni militant groups have targeted Christians several times in recent years. Sunni hardliners have often accused the Aga Khan of working with Israel and the US against the interests of the Pakistani state."
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    Apr 21, 2013 7:05 PM GMT


    And lastly:

    "While the "Western" lifestyle and the "blasphemous beliefs" of the Ismailis might have provoked to some extent Pakistan's Sunni hardliners, their anger appears to have more to do with concern over the Ismailis' growing secularizing influence in the educational arena in Pakistan. In addition to innumerable hospitals and charitable organizations, the Aga Khan Foundation runs a network of schools that provide quality education to young Pakistanis. "
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    Apr 21, 2013 7:08 PM GMT
    musclmed said

    thanks i block him for sometime anyway.


    For having the audacity, as a mere foreigner, to comment on US political issues, which you (rather xenophobically) spent months bitching about.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3284

    Apr 21, 2013 7:29 PM GMT
    it seems that the younger brother only went 1x to a local mosque in 1 year. The older brother incited a argument and was thrown out of a mosque when Martin Luther King was mentioned as a positive role model. It is completely possible the younger brother got caught up in an aggressive older "looser" brother when his father was apparently absent. In that case it may be very likely he will talk while in custody.

    Islam in America has a tremendous image problem . I cannot give any answers on how to reverse that.

    I would say that building mosques at ground zero and trying to shame Americans for feeling anxiety is a poor way to rehabilitate this image.