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http://www.chooseveg.com/animal-cruelty.asp?gclid=CN_3xIeurY4CFSgRGgodIl3mZQ

another movie to watch is Earthlings. it is quite a bit longer (1 hour and 35 minutes to be exact) but it has a lot of information, if you have the time.

this video is to just show people what we've been telling them about....its a personal journey to watch it i think and i dont mind if people share thoughts or not on it.

just watch. see. feel.

it's powerful stuff

Well, you did ask, so, I don't want to see any tears from you boys, ok?

Here's my reaction to that video:



I can post more reactions if you like.

You like?

Yes, tears and plenty, but that was from choking on my dinner! Please someone give me the Heimlich maneuver!
You really ought to just behave one of these days McGay.

Man, thank you so much for posting this video. So many of my friends just can't understand why I don't eat meat. Now I can just show them instead of trying to explain it to them.

Namaste,
Den

That video is horrifying. Years ago, I was assigned a story on factory farming of chickens. After seeing their living conditions and how they were butchered, I couldn't eat chicken for a year.

But -- good or bad -- there's some kind of disassociation that makes it possible to eat meat without thinking about where it came from. My last partner grew up on a farm and he used to tell me he'd become attached to everything from chickens to pigs to cows. Then he would sit down to dinner and be informed he was eating a pet. It's hard for me to imagine that.

I have to say the recipes on that site are pretty darn horrifying, using a lot of canned food, packaged spice combinations -- even Fritos, for god's sake. I have two vegetarian friends who are very obese.

I eat frequently in Asian vegetarian restaurants (especially south Indian) and the food is usually far better than the American-style veg places, which always seem to use an abundance of phony "Mexican" flavors. We've had some high-end gourmet vegetarian places open in Atlanta, but they never seem to last very long.

we have a few pretty decent places here in NYC, you should check some of them out if you're ever in town. Im picking up a book tomorrow or friday that pretty much lists them all out. I'll flp through it and give some reccomendations

Check out www.vegweb.com for thousands of good vegetarian/vegan recipes that rely more on vegetables then "meat substitutes". In my opinion, one of the best vegetarian recipe sites out there.

-Den

Namaste Den

My uncle never told me what happened to my favorite pet pig "arnold ziffield" who ate corn from my hand, but then again I never told him I ran into his pick-up with his favorite John Deere tractor .. Nothing runs like a Deere .. except a kid who just drove one into a truck.

Also my dad never told me what he did with the dozen or so egg laying chickens we had, I was just glad that I didn't have to walk in chicken shit to get the eggs!

We see what we want to see and hear what we want to hear.

Well, I haven't eaten canned, processed food, spongy grocery-store bread and stinky, fake spices in years. If vegetarianism becomes popular in mobile home parks, the recipes on chooseveg.com will be very popular.

And why is so much made to resemble meat? If meat is murder, why replicate it?

i posted this on the peta forum but here it is again. they form the protein matter in shapes that are familiar to it. also, many people who ate meat before could miss those foods, even though they couldnt imagine eating the real thing anymore. so people can want to eat something that resembles meat, only things didnt have to die to make it, so no guilt.

fry, there are other shapes I am familiar with but I wouldn't want to eat them .. lol

We used to have chickens when I was a kid -- actually ours were pretty humanely treated, as they were for eggs, not meat, and had a nice run, and were allowed out in the yard often as well. I did, however, also look after a chicken run much like one of those in the movie. There were there to provied eggs for the patients in the hospital.

Yeah, it wasn't pleasant. They were pretty cramped, and died quite frequently -- and then other hens weren't nice when you tried to remove the dead one and pecked at my hands. Plus the racket they made. We also would trim down there beaks and put it against a hot iron to stop it from bleeding. That is pretty necessary though when they are in such cramped condition because they will peck each other to death. The worse though was mucking the place out! Ugh! I was lazy too and would wait until the chicken shit was a couple feet high before mucking it out, and this was by hand with a shovel. When you turned over it over with a shovel there were maggots crawling throughout manure fat amd white. Lovely quite lovely -- plust when you just had it clean and as your were spraying it off they woulf of course shit on it again and start the same cycle all over.

I agree with OW you just dissociate. And honestly I hand't thought about it in quite a while -- and at that time I was completely vegetarian. Chickens really are stupid though, as one friend used to say: There's nothing wrong with eatin chicken beacuse they're as stupid as a cabbage.

it really helps people fit into an accepted culture, like hot dogs on 4th of july.

why not tofudogs or soydogs.....you cant put blocks of tofu onto a grill and then onto a bun ha.....it has emotional ties and social ones too. we arnt trying to alienate ourselves from the rest of the world, like owl975 seems to think.

Yes, I suspected it was a matter of missing the texture of meat. I ordered "chicken" at a vegetarian Chinese restaurant here and received a plate with a soy object in the shape of a live chicken. It was more disquieting than eating chicken as it's usually prepared.

I think it's more artful to create dishes that don't allude to meat. South Indian food is completely satisfying without posing as meat.

As it happens, I ate a "black-eyed pea burger" tonight at a restaurant. It was grim. I would have much rather had a plate of black eyed peas with garnishes.

it really helps people fit into an accepted culture, like hot dogs on 4th of july.

why not tofudogs or soydogs.....you cant put blocks of tofu onto a grill and then onto a bun ha.....it has emotional ties and social ones too. we arnt trying to alienate ourselves from the rest of the world, like owl975 seems to think.

yea, a burger place here had a grains burger, its actually really good.

You wanna take this meat-eating- thing to the next level check out this flick,


"Parents" (1989)

wrerick: "Yeah, it wasn't pleasant. They were pretty cramped, and died quite frequently -- and then other hens weren't nice when you tried to remove the dead one and pecked at my hands. "

See wrerick, thats when you walk into the chicken pen dressed like Colonel Sanders with a cane and say to the chickens .. "What we have here .. is a failure to communicate .."

Yeah, and the chickens look at you blankly, and go back to pecking each other. Well that and even in my halloween best, I hardly approximate C.S.

wrerick, you gotta work with me here son. But speaking of cruelty to animals, whats up with that pet pic in your profile? I heard of Siamese twins, but that cat/dog thing is strange. What do you call it? A Dat? A Cog?

And Doc Obscene, whats up with that devil Cat of yours? You should call that Jesus guy that comes to your house to exorcise it .. or at least get it some visine!

An exorcism would be good for OW -- might awake is aged soul.

ActiveAndFit: yah mean the Colonel thought chickens was intelligent? You'h s***ing me right?

That dawg and cat, they jus having a bonding moment over that there cat bed. Now common what's a newrotic dawg gonna do tek charge cat?

Id rather gouge my eyes out than eat a tofu burger or hot dog! Vile stuff!

Reaction to video? None really wouldnt change my perspetive in the slightest

my comments on the clip...it is really disturbing. it sickens me that i feel like i am being lied to about what i eat. how can our school systems, grocery stores, fast food joints, distributors, resturants buy this food for living things to consume. this goes the same for the way that some veggies are farmed also. we are consuming violence, apathy, and ignorance. not to mention the amount of poisons, and disease. i am not a vegetarian, i eat meat sometimes. when i do eat meat i try to get a local organic trusted farmed product, which in my area is common. i also grow all my own vegetables, due to the fact that i cant trust our grocery stores to not contaminate our food supply. i know i sound crazy, but i lived in the midwest for a while, where ground beef and potatoes was the answer to everything, and I also worked in the resturant business for a while, and have seen some things. well i am rambling, but to sum it up be wise, your money is your vote, educate yourself to grow your own food.

"And Doc Obscene, whats up with that devil Cat of yours? You should call that Jesus guy that comes to your house to exorcise it .. or at least get it some visine!"

I think Mr. Mew knows that as long as his eyes are bright red, I'm not going to eat him.

The faith healer is still coming over every Sunday to do work on the house while spreading the good news about Jesus.

The video was of course vile and there are others just like it. It's obviously the norm so seeing stuff like this isn't too difficult.

That said, I can't give up my eggs and meat but I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. For those who a) are willing b) have the resources and c) are willing to put in a bit of extra effort, a great site is the Certified Humane website.

It's easy to fall for the "free range" or "cage free" label but the "Certified Humane Raised and Handled" is an extra measure of assurance.

I didnt change my opinion a bit...Im a carnivore and always will be one...jsut ate turkey bacon...YUM....will have more chicken for lunch....beef for dinner...

this weekend...Im making VEAL PARMIGIAN...you hadnt lived until youve eaten my veal (baby cow) parmigian...YUMMMMM MEEE....

then for breakfast im making eggs and bacon and apple/chicken sausage....

Who ever wants to come over and savor the delights of carnivorism with me...CMON DOWN!!!

Wow that wasn't very mature. It's not my duty to argue with you, but you could at least be a little more compassionate and mature about the topic. Your response just proves how much you live in denial. I hope you see it one day :)

I originally became a vegetarian due to my disgust with factory farming and thereafter added other reasons for it. It's amazing that people think nothing of consuming other lifeforms where such massive destruction and degradation takes place. Of course, this prizing of human life (and whimsical human consumption)over all else is leading us to irrevocably alter our planet, warm our oceans, and poison our air. And all for what? For a bit of pleasure that lasts a few minutes. Factory farming is a symptom of a larger societal disease...and we are quite sick.

What I'd love to know is how some so-called "animal lovers" who go all ape-shit when the see/hear of mistreatment to cats & dogs don't think twice about the homocidal treatment that greats cows, chickens, and pigs. If someone wants to consume meat then by all means, do that; however, don't do it out of ignorance and know that everytime you do you're (potentially) supporting murderous and pathological practices.

I would come eat with you mascjockatl, that all sounds great. my personal theory about vegans-"they are killing the planet by slowly sufficating all other lifeforms." I could really go for a double quarter pounder with cheese, or a nice peice of steak, medium rare.

Wow, hilarious. Why are people so defensive of their meat and so immature about the topic? I'm only 20 years old and these people are what...40?! I know age has nothing to do with maturity, but I wonder what these guys have done to better our world and bring peace in their 40 years of existence. Do they have reason to argue?

AutomaticFeeling, it's because they (and we) do not have to walk into a slaughterhouse to get said beef, poultry, pork, etc.

I wager most people today would have a much tougher time if they had to face that and I'm not even suggesting the more extreme view of saying they need to be able to do the slaughtering themselves.

Hey automatic...Im jsut having some fun...lighten up...go throw some red paint on fur coat wearers or picket a chicken processing plant...

You choose your lifestyle....I choose mine...I choose to eat beef and chicken and turkey and fish...etc...etc...so if that is immature...I guess Im a child....been called worse...

But seriously, I have yet to meet a vegan who looked healthy...these animals were put on this earth for a reason...to provide meat and nutritional sustance to carnivores...

if youve seen the studies on the brain size and mental capacity of a chicken or a turkey or a cow....you would realize that this is their only value...if you compared them to humans as far as brain capacity...they would be considered "vegetables" and on life support...

So I have no trouble eating them ....

And I feed my children plenty of Beef and Chicken and Turkey and am proud to be raising another generation of Carnivores.

I understand it's a joke, but its not nice :(

Unfortunately there are a lot of unhealthy vegans because they don't know how to eat right due to all the processed junk food out there. Some have the best intentions...some don't. Same can be said about meat eaters. I've never seen a healthy meat eater :P

www.veganbodybuilding.com

I just want to put the evidence out there. Not forcing you to look at it, but it shows vegans can in fact be extraordinarily healthy. If you can find something that claims meat gives unlimited amounts of energy, health, and happiness then I will definitely read it. :)

woops. so i dont know how to insert a picture.

http://www.unpunk.com/~matt/comicvegan.jpg

there.

RE: mascjock

You're a very cute guy but really, "they were put here for the sustenance of carnivores...they're not that smart so why not?"

Um, by that logic, many people deserve to be slaughtered for others. Why not eat dogs (some of them are quite stupid), cats (some of them are quite stupid as well), and anything else which fails to the standard you assume to be set by human beings. Aside from the animal ethics standpoint, much of the water usage and pollution comes from factory farming. While you might wanna raise your kids to be carnivores, I'm assuming you want them to have water to drink and a clean environment? It's amazing that you, as a parent, are so basic about this issue. No offense.

fryblock, the tag is img src="the entire image URL in quotes", and there is no closing tag needed after.

Jackal...seriously now...these animals have virtually no brain capacity...they can do very little thinking beyond knowing to eat and reproduce....what value do they bring if not for food????

We dont eat dogs ...but come cultures do....because they are intelligent creatures...though the vietnamese do because they dont have as many meat animals there...ever been to viet nam????

Red meat has many vital vitamins and oils are body needs...like CLA...conjugated linolic acid...vegans are lacking in this essential acid and thus their body is not firing on all pistons...

But, Im not here to convince you to eat meat...i realize its not going to happen and I couldnt give a shit what you eat...

BUT DONT TELL ME HOW TO FEED MY CHILDREN...EVER!!! Ill put the healthiness of my 5yo up against your health any day of the week!!

by the way....I made beef Stew for dinner...YUMMMMMMM....its simmering in the crock pot as we speak!!

mascjock-

i am a healthy vegan. i watch what i eat and it is all balanced. sure, i may be thin, but i'm 15 pounds heavier than i was before i went vegan.

img src="http://www.dlist.com/viewmedia.do?mid=558293&redir=http://www.dlist.com/search.do%3Fpage%3D1%26nr%3D48%23558293"

ok i suck at this. and that wasn't even the right link....

YAHTZEE! figured it out! thanks paradox

His ignorance leaves me in awe.

I'll have to 22oz Prime Rib... i'd like that to still be mooing please.

And as an appetizer i'd like the bacon wrapped scallops.

Actually, you failed to respond to the environmental objections I raised to a meat-based diet, but that's fine...I doubted a few words would change your mind.

I don't know where you've been looking, but vegetarians (which I refer to, though we can include healthy vegans) tend to look MUCH better than meat eaters and/or people who eat excess amounts of meat. Now, that's not to say that's solely because they only have veggies, but the human body does have an easier time processing veggies as opposed to meat (which it can break down, albeit with more effort). In terms of vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and the like, you'll have a hard time showing meat to be overwhelmingly superior to vegetables and fruit...but again, do what you want.

The logic of "they're stupid so just let them die for our consumption" is a bit grotesque for my tastes, so I'll leave you to that. Good day!

Today, CLA is made from a process that uses 100 percent safflower oil.

automatic...I was about to say the same thing about you...

ooops...sorry...my grilled chicken breast is ready....gotta eat...

have a great day...

Im sure there is a dandelion in someone's yard with your name on it...

Young dandelion greens are actually kinda tasty...

Hey fryblock...maybe so...but its also not nearly as effective as the cla you get from red meat...there are plenty of studies on the internet on the subject.

My beef stews smells soooooo Good....

even still, i'd rather get my CLA without a side of guilt, at least for me.

Cool movie - I totally agree it is disgusting.

Everyone should go out and hunt and fish for their own food. Wild fish & game tastes much better.;->

Lets face it, we don't have the dental structure we have because we are herbivores. Humans are Carnivores, and our physical health - our very bodies - cry out for nutrients that a steady diet of protein produces.

Almost all vegetarians have to be careful to take suplements to maintain good health.

Rather than decry the evils of eating meat - we should be working on eliminating the inhumane treatment of animals.

Rob

This article sums up the debate pretty nicely and offers a pretty good picture for the future where all sides can be pretty happy.

IT Jock makes the most sense of all this hooha!!

Again

Would rather believe Ghandi, Einstein, Plato, Pythagoras, Hippocrates, Tolstoy, Emerson, Thoreau, da Vinci (the list goes on) or "Jim Walker" Haha.

Didn't Einstein marry his cousin? Ghandi as nice as he was, thought cows were sacred. Aristotle and Plato believed the earth was the center of the universe. These people were phenomenal in their respective fields during their own time periods but I fail to see how it has anything to do with how we eat.

itjock does not make th emost sense. you claim that eating meat means you are healthier, as if that means you lead a balanced diet. do you know how many overweight,, unhealthy meat eaters there are because their diet is so unbalanced?

Well, they were all vegetarians/vegans. They knew the slaughter of animals will lead to our own destruction -- all of them. It's a reoccurring theme in philosophy that we seem to disregard, but we'd rather believe studies funded by the meat industry?

Would you think it's right to question your own intelligence just because you're gay, owl? I'm sure there are some people who would. Your argument makes no sense. You cannot disprove these men made huge contributions to higher thinking.

Fryblock -

Wow - do you know how to twist a subject or what?

I suggested :

A - People would have much more respect for their diet - and the animals - if they were not so removed from the process of aquiring their food; especially through hunting and fishing for wild game.

B - That humans are born carnivores. We need certain nutrients to maintain good health.

C - That we should concentrate on the inhumane treatment of animals (IMHO frequently caused by our modern dis association with the hunter/gatherer process.)
--------------------------------------------

The vast majority of people in the world have very unbalanced diets; in some cases this has let to genetic changes and predispositions based upon long term cultural dietary intake (N American Aboriginals, South Sea Islanders, etc).

To suggest that either a non meat diet is inherently healthier - per qua - flys in the face of overwhelming scientific research.

What I would personally advocate for is a healthy diet with moderation in everything.

I am interested in what goes into me. I go far out of my way to shop at a co op where I know the foods have been mostly locally grown and harvested when possible, and the animals have been raised and slaughtered under extremely humane and even Kosher conditions.

I think if everyone did that then we would eat healthier, and there would be a lot less suffering in this world.

The Anti-Meat crowd confuses and complicates their own arguments. If they concentrated simply on humane treatment of animals then they would get much farther.

One of the best arguments the Anti-Meat crowd hass come up with recently is the POLUTION-GREEN HOUSE GAS argument.

Since they are not about to eliminate meat from the international diet; their cause would be best served by trying to reduce the amount of polution in the process.

My ancestors used to hunt and fish for hundreds of generations across the Northeast. Every time they would set out on a hunting or fishing trip they would pray to the spirit of the game or fish, begging them for use of their bodies. They saw themselves - and their food - as an integral part of the circle of life. They did not see themselves - as we seem to today - as bestride or atop a great pyramid of which we are the sole masters. At the end of each succesful hunt they would be very careful to honor their catch, to waste absolutely nothing - as a matter of religious philosophy - and to pray again to the spirit of their catch to thank them for allowing them the priviledge of being worthy to catch and use them.

IMHO we could all take a major lesson from their book on how to ethically treat animals, and to become more in tune with our diets and the circle of life.

R

Perhaps it's a small point, but people on this thread keep referring to humans as carnivores. That is not accurate. Like many other species, we are omnivores. We do not "require" a diet of mainly meat. Theoretically, we have evolved beyond the Neanderthal, regardless of our teeth.

On the other hand, in some areas of the world, a plant-based diet would be a disaster. Imagine inhabitants of the Arctic Circle taking up a vegetarian diet. I am curious what the vegetarians here would counsel them. (Vegetarian colonialism?)

great point Obscene...and its notable how the vegetarians didnt respond...LOL...

And yes, you are correct, we humans are Omnivores...I certainly am...I love my spinach and salads...and veggies...as well as my salmon, and chicken and beef....

The argument made earlier that only meat eaters are overrweight...as if its the meat that causes it....is so absurd...

there are thyroid issues....and sugar is probably the biggest culprit to obesity...last time I checked, sugar wasnt a meat....


there is no question that fatty foods, including saturated fat in some meats are a cause...but they are NOT the primary source... as the two vegans in the previous posts, trying to justify their diet, are trying to make us believe...

A balanced diet of lean meat, some red meat, fish, veggies and fruit and grains is best for humans...BALANCE...one extreme or another is not ....and the studies done by professionals support that...not the ranting of some extremists on here!!!!

I'm 100% with ITJock on this one. I couldn't have said it better so I stand behind him with a "YEAH! What he said!"

I don't know which is worse, being a chicken trapped in a cage waiting to die, or a zebra running for its life from a lion.

I think I'll ponder that over a turkey and bacon sandwhich. All this early morning reading has made me hungry.

actually most of the calories from meat are filled with saturated fat and very high in cholesterol. To say meat makes people fat is a true and proven biological fact (though some can't tell because I mean look at you guys BUT...chances are you spend A LOT of time at the gym). Thats not to say being veggie is the answer, there are plenty of shitty non animal products out there to make us fat.

oh and please my fellow veggies, we have to learn (especially from the other threads) people are just going to continue on being insecure and defensive for eating meat, ESPECIALLY after watching this video. They won't want to accept what their aiding in. Let them make their comments and jokes and when they drop dead of a heart attack or other diseases caused by meat we won't have to hear from them again :)

and notice most of the people making snide and stupid remarks are so OLD, their generations valued meat to the top and of ut most importance. years doesnt make wisdom....they've proved that

we arent born carnivores if we can get all of the said nutrients from non-animal sources

mascjockatl...there are no real vitamins in meat lol

hehe, slayer is my favorite person for that last comment

Meat doesn't make one fat.

I've been an omnivore all my life, mostly meat and potatoes. Only in the last few years have I added an array of vegetable to my diet. I have never been over 165 pounds and it is only in the last few years that I've paid attention to the fat content of my meat. Prior to that, hot dogs, 80% beef, fatty pork, chinese take out, bad italian food, heavy fatty french food, etc. It's bullshit that meat makes you fat. Fat makes you fat whether it comes from vegetable or meat.

Viva viande.

He's a naive hysteric. Calm down and go eat some fish before your head explodes, the two of you. You're having fits.

Slayer's statement that meat is high in fat and cholesterol is extremely vague and misleading.

When referring to meat, all meat? red meat? white meat? Chickens, cows, deer, ducks, etc..

All red meats are certainly not the same.
Chicken and turkey is certainly not high in saturated fat or cholesterol. Simply read/research the nutrition information.

Read any literature today and you will see that today's obesity is linked to the increase in the consumption of refined sugars and processed foods coupled with lack of excercise. The overconsumption of chicken is hardly the smoking gun of obesity.

I took this from the below website
RED Meat example from NutritionFacts.com

Beef, chuck, tender steak, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 1/4" fat, USDA choice, raw
Nutrition Facts
Serving Size
Standard Measure (100g/3.5oz)1 lb (453.6g/16.2oz)1 oz (28.35g/1.0oz)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amount per Serving

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calories 114 kcal

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

% Daily Value

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total Fat 3.74 g 6%
Saturated Fat 1.334 g 7%
Polyunsaturated Fat 2.005 g
Monounsaturated Fat 0.333 g

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cholesterol 54 mg 18%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sodium 83 mg 4%

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Total Carbohydrates 0.00 g 0%
Dietary Fiber 0.0 g 0%
Sugars 0.00 g

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Protein 18.89 g %

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recommended Daily Allowances Calories 2000 2500
Total Fat Less than 65g 80g
Sat Fat Less than 20g 25g
Cholesterol Less than 300mg 300mg
Sodium Less than 2400mg 2400mg
Total Carbohydrate 300g 375g
Dietary Fiber 25g 30g

I suppose that it is slayer's life inexperiences that would lead him to wish death upon people simply for being meat eaters.

Any argument is better stated and supported when it is back up with research and name calling and insults are left out.

You should have let the video speak for itself than sacrifice the validity of your argument with death wishes towards others.

I never said they didn't make contributions. I said they did. But none of them made contributions to society because they were breakthrough nutritionists. Einstein was a physicist, and Aristotle and Plato were philosophers. Ghandi was a philanthropist who happened to be Hindu so by religion, he wasn't allowed to eat meat. There were plenty of non-vegetarian "great" people. In fact I'd even argue that most "great" people probably weren't vegetarian. So are you going to neglect them and decided that those people you chose are the only "great" people you should emulate? And I don't see any trend. All I see is a handful people who made a choice to be vegetarian for different reasons over a period of thousands of years. Do you even understand the reasons and philosophies of these people? Or are you just blindly following them.

No we are not born carnivores, we are born omnivores. We eat both plants and animals.

And whats going on with these age remarks?

"I know age has nothing to do with maturity, but I wonder what these guys have done to better our world and bring peace in their 40 years of existence."

And what the hell have you done in your life buddy? What give you the right to argue?

By the way just saying "I don't get it" without backing it up isn't an arguement, its just being retarded.

Nicely said Owl975.

Oh and by the way, I've seen the video before, its a standard veggie tale. Here is another video you should watch:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5CzbT1hGwmM

Its not just Walmart that uses unfair labor practices. Almost everything we own is made in china. A lot of which is made using unfair labor practices. So are you not going to buy anything from China now or does your holier than though attitude not extend to the Chinese?

and again I said ya'll prolly LIVE at the gym :)

so chances are you wont be fat cause you spend your half your life trying to get loose it :)

cheers
xoxo

It's better than living in fantasyland.

funny owl, im a veggie pushing my agenda and you've brought up this chinese thing pushing YOUR agenda (ya look asian to me) and there is a difference, animals dont have the voice to CHANGE what is happening to them, humans do...thats something you can't win with me, sorry.

oh and urban i never said GO die, i simply made a statement that was in no way shape form directed to ANY of you...like ya'll like to tell me, Im just vague ;).

Actually I'm Japanese and I buy Chinese made products all the time. I'm making a point, no agenda.

I was walking past my tomato plants this morning and I could have sworn that one yelled out "don't eat me, I feel pain". Maybe it was one of the carrots, not one of the tomatoes.

Like I said, saying someone is wrong without addressing the point is not an arguement or do they not teach you that at whatever school you go to?

And they can't change their situation. If we could all change our situation I'd be reborn a millionaire.

oh and owl, my personal life and the accomplishments i've made at my young age are none of your business...plain and simple. i dont like you, i havent nor will I ever.

pahahahahahahahaha! too much! toooooo much!

neener neener.

i think he's sticking his tongue out at you, owl.

I said asian i never said which one so dont get all up with the proud ... god defensive much...ya know what, you have bored me and annoyed me on just so many occasions just, go away or at least refrain from talking to me or commenting on my comments, well you can its a free country so i dont care but im not responding to you anymore :)

love and light

xoxo

wow. that was intelligent.

Although I heartily agree with ITJock, people want cheap food, and unfortunately, large scale animal confinements are the cheapest way to raise animals for meat. In the case of beef cattle, it takes half the time to achieve slaughter weight on hay/silage/grain in a feedlot than on cattle's natural diet of grass pasture. Grass-fed beef and buffalo are expensive luxury items.

As for what makes us fat, that varies among individuals. Back when I used to hang out on gay.com, there was a guy in Des Moines who lost over 100 lbs by switching to a vegetarian diet. I don't know if it was meat that made him fat, but cutting it out sure made him thin. In my case, I've had wonky blood sugar issues all my life, and it was the excess carbs of my largely vegetarian diet that made me fat and lethargic. By replacing most of the grain and beans with meat, I lost 30 pounds of fat and put an end to the huge blood sugar swings and lethargy.

Slayer - "They won't want to accept what their aiding in. Let them make their comments and jokes and when they drop dead of a heart attack or other diseases caused by meat we won't have to hear from them again :)"

Lets break down what slayer said above.

You said in a later post that your comment was "in no way shape form directed to ANY of you."
If that is the case, then who are the "They" you are referring to in the above post?
Who else are you arguing with besides the people making posts?

Second, you said "i never said GO die."
Yet, you are quite clear that anyone who eats meat can 'just drop dead from a heart attack never to be heard from again.' Certainly not wishes of health and long life either.

With the whole: "O my gosh! whatever, your wrong because you're wrong! I don't like you" style of debate, its clear some people here probably wont be able to successfully defend themselves logically, so I think I'll call it a day on this topic. Have fun everyone! lol

Jesus, everyone calm down before I eat each of you alive.

i have seen the exact opposite in my friends that obscenewish had mentioned in the begining of this. many of my vegitarian/vegan friends are so skinny is should be unhealthy. but they follow the diet.

now, you cant tell me that part of that website is just trying to convice every one, one of the FAQs, on dont we need meat to survive. stop and think way back going far far back to the paleolithic age, how esle did they get their nutrients, it WAS a necessity, and even up through hundreds of thousands of years, right about 12000-13000 years it was a necessity to eat meat and dairy, they did not have supplements and vitamins back then. yes we eat the food we choose by choice, but we still cant say that is not a necessity to eat meat.

I myself do eat meat, but the meats i eat are grown by a local farmer, who raises them and gets them ready for the freezer himself, he does nothing that is gross, he keeps only a few animals on his farm, 3-4 pigs, and or cows, the care he gets for the animals is wonderful.

before just watching this video, get an idea as to where your meats come from, look local, local gets you better meats. and if you have been to europe, the meats in many of the country sides are taken care of in the cleanest fashion. I know myself if i went on supplements and a vegan diet i would lose a lot of weight, a very un healthy amount. i know myself i would not have the energy i do now. i am careful as to what i eat, and how much i eat. I feel that some of that information is so wrong or misguiding that it is not funny. yet some of it is very true.

Honestly, eating meat is not necessary. We aren't Paleolithic creatures. If vegetarians want to go to the trouble to get their nutrients by some means other than eating meat, who cares?

The ethical/moral issue is separate from the nutritional one. There is no consensus in this regard and no global agreement is possible. Personally, I find the notion that animals exist simply to meet the needs of humans troubling. Just what we need: a theory of evolution based on the survival of the most edible.

It's rather sly how the issue has switched from being about the ethical treatment of animals in factory farming to nutrition, a nice slight of hand to avoid discussing something reprehensible (factory farming).

Funny how the whole "we're hunters/carnivores" argument gets trotted out, as if our lifestyles today remotely resemble those of 10,000 years ago. If you like meat, great, but don't rely on the whole "it's natural for humans" argument in 2007 C.E. Oh, and contrary to what someone said above, it's quite unnatural for humans to drink the milk OF ANOTHER SPECIES, milk that f.y.i., is meant for calves. Also, people will trot out the whole "what about protein" issue, as if meat were the only source (broccoli is one source of protein). The same protein-concerned types will often turn around and look dumb when pressed about their own sources of flavanoids, lutenin, B12, Vitamins A, E, and C, Phosphate, amino acids, and Iron. Again, while people have the right to do what they want, from a science & health standpoint, a meat-based diet has been shown to be inferior to a plant-based one.

Anyway, the post was about cruelty to animals, not nutrition, so it'd be nice if more of the pro-meat people responded to that.

"I don't know which is worse, being a chicken trapped in a cage waiting to die, or a zebra running for its life from a lion."

the obvious difference is the zebra and lion are living a natural way of life. we have corrupted the chicken's life, condemning it to a 1X1 cage or cramming them in a room and giving them hormones so they get too big too fast.



Roman-

what makes you so sure you would lose an unhealthy amount of weight. i gained 15 pounds when i went from vegetarian to vegan. and i am the healthiest i have ever been in my entire life.



obscene-

i do enjoy your facts and way about saying things that dont cause controversy and arguments. we all can take a lesson from you.

I eat meat and the reason we have this form of meat production is one word:
Population
Where there is the demand there is no other way to supply it except in mass.
What amazes me though is the inhumanity and the people who can just kill a pig by bashing it on the floor = shows how sick humans can be.
But guess thats another subject...

I was not saying we are Paleolithic Creatures, obviously we have made major changes in the different fields of technology and such. What I meant by that is that there are still strands of DNA in us that link us to them. Back then what else did they have to supply themselves with the nutrients that they needed, it was not till the 5,000 years did agraculture start to develop. They relied on the meat of an animal then for food, and the idea of that has stayed with us for all this time. All I meant by this is that in that amount of time we have always eaten meat, it was you do or you die. Yes I know now a days it is not like that.

And fryblock, I know I would lose the weight because my body would not be able to handle the change. I do eat veggie friendly foods, but i always feel hungry about a half an hour later, and i only eat at set times of the day, morn, noon, and late in the evening. You can say that I would not lose weight all you want, but I will tell you one thing, you know nothing of my body and the way it reacts to anything.

And slayer, by the way, if you are gonna start a forum like this, you better damn well be an open mind. You say you would like to see peoples reactions yet you call all those who do not agree with you, immautre, and such. You had said that there was a lacking level of immaturity in the guys who eat meat, yet you go on about how they will fall down due to a heart attack and then you would not have to hear their comments....IF THAT IS YOUR VIEW ON THINGS, THEN YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE STARTED THIS FORUM IN THE FIRST PLACE!

This is getting crazy! Oh well, no hard feelings here. We are obviously not going to convince each other. I apologize for my age comment and apologize for misunderstanding you, owl. So let's just be friends, okay!? All my friends in real life eat meat and we never argue about it. So let's just stop the fuss, it's futile! :)

Also

After all this, I realized that we need to respect each other's beliefs not attack them, because then we will get nowhere and cause more harm than good. Being vegan doesn't necessarily mean you're a great person and being a meat eater doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad person. It's all about the intention! That's my final thought ;)

I can agree with you on that one Automatic, yes some people had said things that were a little off beat, but it did come from both sides.

PLANTS ARE INTELLIGENT LIVING CREATURES TOO! Plants is murder. Without plants, where would all the oxygen be?!?! Ultra-Carnivours FOREVER!!!

Yeah, really. Just because plants cannot scream out in pain, doesn't mean they hate being eaten just as much as animals do...

It is a very difficult subject to discuss. Growing up farming I was conveniently absent when the cattle were taken to the local abattoir for processing. I was around these animals day to day. I developed feelings for my cattle(handful) and it was difficult to deal with their slaughter I have to admit. I also had to endure the deer, chicken, rabbit slaughter. Oddly enough it wasn't as difficult to deal with. This was part of the survival hunting we did growing up. Farmers have poor cash flow so slaughtering, sharing and gratitude for this food is part of the experience of farming and of survival.


vegetables/fruits are grown with many chemicals, ie the potato has some 20 different chemicals on its skin(grown commercially). so one wonders how healthy this veggies really are. the environment is impacted as well.

Monsanto and the like are doing serious harm by genetically engineeering terminator seeds which will erradicate what mother nature put on this planet.

I don't have much trust in the food industry in general and do my best to buy everything from my fsmily and local farmers.

I just watched about 1/2 the video and I was too disgusted to watch the rest. Its sick. Just sick!

No, I'm not a vegetarian, but what I saw is seriously making me re-think my eating habits. Instead of trying to convert the country into a meat-free society, I think a more attainable goal would be to pursue humane treatment in the raising and processing of animals. Mass farms need to be done away with, in my opinion, and a return to the family farm is would be a positive move. Also, organic farming where no growth hormones or artificial additives are used is a good idea.

I see most of the problem lying with the "mass production" mentality that is present in modern-day corporate agribusinesses. Here in Iowa, we have hog lots (that smell awful, for one) and I can only imagine what goes on in those places. Luckily, people resist them wherever they're proposed.

Alongside a major investigation and the institution of higher standards at these processing farms & plants, we need to free ourselves from imported food. If conditions are this bad in the United States, we can only speculate on what's going on in those oh-so-unregulated Chinese slaughter facilities.

Very good video. Everyone should see it.

I watched the first half of the video and it made me think about how sweet/tasty chicken is.

Sorry for my earlier post though, Automatic. I only read about half the replies on this forum and only just realized we all reconciled.

I tried going vegan but I only lasted about 5 minutes...T_T

yeah i guess im sorry too

vegan is my lifestyle, not some of yours. lets all just remember i started this veg talk with the intentions of talking about perfromance eating.

and I still havent got that lol.

so no hard feelings on my end either. anger and fighting only narrows our life experienceing potential.

roman-

i never said i knew your body, i only inquired as to why you said that. if you eat the right foods you won't be hungry soon after. but im not trying to change you.



elij-

one word. organic.

Pledge To Be Veg!

Vegetarians and vegans or those on there way are welcome to join me there! It is a great community for all peace loving earthlings!

http://my.care2.com/tjwdraws

I recently made the jump to veganism and this may sound weird coming from me, but there is nothing wrong with the eating of meat. We are omnivorous in our eating as dictated by nature.Look at our closest living cousins the monkeys. They exist on almost an exclusive vegetarian diet, HOWEVER they do supplement their diet with meat on occasion. Why? Because Nature has programmed that into their natural instincts. Look at the American Indians. Their whole survival was based on keeping a balance with nature and their environment. They were meat eaters. The difference is that they respected the animals and would send up prayers of blessing for the animals spirit when a kill was made. They killed only what they needed and used every part possible of the animal. Why? Because an omnivorous diet is programmed into their instincts by Nauture.

I didn't become a vegan because I thought the eating of meat is wrong...it's strictly the way the animals are treated in these factory farms. I know not all farms are like that, but since i don't have the time or the desire to research ever single company that produces every single thing I eat, then I chose to just stay away from animal products all together.

There is no difference in the eating of meat or the eating of vegetables. Science has proven that plants do seem to have a primitive form "sense". They respond to temperature changes, light, darkness, sound, and they have studies showing plants responding to human emotions. We all share the same life energy so to kill a chicken for food is no different than killing a tomato.

It's all about the ethical treatment of the animals. Atleast in my humble opinion.

-Den

...to kill a chicken for food is no different than killing a tomato

I disagree. We would be wise to respect the planet and all of its parts but we do need to eat something. Eating life forms that can 1) regenerate & 2) lack a central nervous system seems to be the best plan for me and my moral center. I doubt if a tomato endures the horror a ch