My ever devolving stance on gay marriage

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    Apr 28, 2013 9:51 PM GMT
    I wrote this blog post on my blog, and thought I'd share it here http://whiskydreams.wordpress.com/2013/04/21/my-ever-devolving-stance-on-gay-marriage/. I know many readers will disagree, but it's food for thought and a different viewpoint on marriage 'equality':

    There is a book I recommend any young gay man read entitled Androphilia by Jack Donovan. I found it in 2008 and was confused, perplexed and challenged by it. It shattered everything I thought I knew about gay-ness and the gay identity. Donovan explained how gays needed to reject the gay community and reclaim the mantle of masculinity, as androphiles.

    I’ve always been very interested in what it means to be a man (as I am one) and have found that as I get older — I get more and more in touch with my masculine side. Donovan has become a very prolific writer for me and has inspired many writings, creative and political, over the past couple of years. As someone who has always beat to my own drum, I find that I toe the line very smoothly between the gay and straight world. I never quite fit in with any one “community” or group of people. I’m an individual, believe in rugged individualism as an American ideal, am very patriotic — and have worked through and accepted many conservative view points. I could talk at length at how masculine I am or am not perceived to be, but I know that deep down, who I am, is unabashedly male.

    The short end of the stick was being raised primarily by my mother with an ineffective father, who was taught from a young age to acquiesce to all the women in his life. Being raised and surrounded by, I grew up speaking the language of women. I was rejected by the boys on the playground as I was “too sensitive” and didn’t learn, til much later in life, how to man up and be part of the tribe.



    As Donovan did, I found the gay community as some shelter from the storm of a world I thought didn’t understand me. But now, as I edge closer to 30 — I have begun to awaken the warrior within me. Men are violent, we are assertive, we are aggressive — but we are also noble, loyal, passionate and courageous. That is the man I am and aspire to be.



    Now all this talk of gay marriage? I’m borrowing from Donovan’s thoughts on it — but I agree with him. Marriage has historically, religiously and culturally been about men and women. It has historically been about the woman leaving her family, marrying a man, who protects and provides for her — and she in return, takes care of him as well. The customs and traditions (white wedding dress, walking down the aisle, father giving the daughter away, it being “her special day”) have all revolved around the timeless unity that is man and wife. The union helps continue survival of the species. Of course not all couples get married for that reason today and don’t have to. And many partnerships today shun gender roles completely, but they still call it marriage.

    I also could get married if I wanted. To be considered a marriage, as a man, I’d have to take a wife. I don’t want one… so therefore, I can’t get married.

    I’m not going to speak for lesbians here, because I’m not one and don’t have any experience being a woman.

    As someone who is same sex attracted, I fall in love with and primarily admire other men. Honestly, I love everything about men.

    And what goes unsaid, is that there have been time tested rituals, oaths and sacrifices made — as described in Blood Brotherhood (another book, also by Donovan) — of the special relationship men have taken (albeit for the most part non-sexually) with each other. The idea being you lay down your life and are willing to take a bullet for your “blood brother.” In some circles and societies these relationships were more respected and of higher clout than a traditional marriage.

    What Donovan, and I to an extent, are asking is why aren’t we creating and appropriating some sort of bond or union that reflects our unique relationship to one another, as two men? With of course, legal hospital visitation rights, property taxes, joint income tax relief — etc etc — that is undertaken by anyone who chooses to commit their life to one another.
    Why do we have to take a tradition that’s not ours and try to appropriate it? Why not make our own? Something inspired and honored by the unique Mars/Mars combination that make up an intimate same-sex relationship. There is no woman in my relationship — yes opposites always attract — but that doesn’t make one of us the “girl.” I am a man. We are men — there is no bride. There is no wedding dress. My dad sure as hell isn’t giving me away to anyone. I choose to give my life for someone else.



    Why not create something honorable, unique to our relationships with each other, that are – separate from marriages – but equal in the legal context. The problem with this whole ‘equality’ argument — is that it essentially gay sounds like spoiled brats who want something just because they can’t have it. I am gay, it is a behavioral trait — I do not choose to feel desire for men — but I do choose to act on it. And I’m good with that. I take responsibility for it. No one owes me anything. I’m not a victim. I’m not oppressed. I’m not embarrassed. I’m not “proud” because I didn’t pass any test to be into dudes. I just am.

    I’m a man who loves other men.

    One day, I will meet a dude that I will want to lay down my life for. And him for me.

    I’d love to have some sort of ceremony that honors that — perhaps without a minister or someone ordaining it — perhaps just between us. Perhaps no one will else will be around for that — where we will make a sacred, spiritual vow to defend each others honor, protect and care for each other, for the rest of our lives. I don’t need a priest or the state to bless my vow. It is my choice to align my life with another man.

    And then we can go down to city hall, file some domestic partnership paperwork and be done with it. Or even get a lawyer to work out some finer details.



    I don’t need the state or the government to approve of my life or my choices. All I’d like is to be able to be entitled to the same tax breaks as anyone else slugging it out in a partnership. But marriage? No, that wouldn’t be it was — it would feel weird and inorganic for me. I don’t want to be “married” to a dude — I want to, like Jonathan and David from the Bible, bind my soul to another. It’s for me and him to decide what that means and how it works.



    I sincerely hope the Supreme Court doesn’t redefine ‘marriage’. And I say this as a gay men who isn’t ashamed of his sexuality. But it’s not all I am and all I want to be. There is so much more to me than that. I’m more a man than I am a ‘gay man.’

    In fact, perhaps I will stop identifying as gay altogether.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Apr 28, 2013 11:57 PM GMT
    whiskydreams saidIn fact, perhaps I will stop identifying as gay altogether.


    And the gay community will breathe a collective sigh of relief when that happens.

    5055032357_69d1d1be72_z.jpg
  • creature

    Posts: 5197

    Apr 29, 2013 12:11 AM GMT
    Separate, but equal?

    No thanks, didn't work the last time.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2013 12:41 AM GMT
    Someone Fucking StupidI also could get married if I wanted. To be considered a marriage, as a man, I’d have to take a wife. I don’t want one… so therefore, I can’t get married.


    You know, I was really with you about rejecting mainstream gay culture and reclaiming masculinity, until I read this sentence, then yo shit hit the fan big time buddy.

    Just sayin.
  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Apr 29, 2013 4:47 AM GMT
    judith butler is laughing at you as we speak
  • Road89

    Posts: 104

    Apr 29, 2013 5:14 AM GMT
    I am a Christian, a man, and I am gay - in order of importance.

    Gay marriage is something I used to volley in my mind, however, I've come to the realization that if I am going to be gay then I have to be okay with gay marriage. To a degree I contradict myself anyway by living as a gay Christian. Should I contradict myself once more? Heavens No! In my mind - to me, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality so, I don't believe it's wrong. Living in a world where everyone tells you it is wrong, and that you need to change, and that you disgusting - it hurts. It makes it hard to believe in yourself, and your dreams. It makes it hard for you to set sturdy goals, and develop a life plan. It makes it hard to see past...today.

    Now that I am older and (thankfully) have started making up my own mind, I see that I can be gay and i can be a Christian. I also believe that marriage should be between two people that love each other enough to become united as one, forever. Frankly, I could care less if they call it marriage or civil union, or joining of the gays, lol, I could care less. The only thing I care about is that gay couples get all the same benefits as straight couples.

    When I was 14, before I knew for sure who I was, there was a picture in my head of my future. A large red ranch house with black shutters and white trimmings. A giant willow tree stood in a huge front yard, just adjacent to the house. Very nice green plush grass. All of this surrounded by a white picket fence. I stood with my wife and two children. When I realized that I was gay that dream died. I thought that there was no way for me to ever achieve that dream as a gay man. I was wrong. I am happy now that I have the courage to say that.

    You have to believe in you no matter what. If this is truly what you believe, then okay - not very many people will agree with you. However, I can't shoot you down for voicing you opinion. Although, I can suggest that you really think about what you are saying and ask yourself, "Is this really what i stand for?" I believe it to be severely important to know who you are before you say who you are...Do you understand?

  • calibro

    Posts: 8888

    Apr 29, 2013 5:29 AM GMT
    yourname2000 said
    calibro saidjudith butler is laughing at you as we speak

    [googles judith butler]

    Heavy. You sound edumacated real good.


    6a00e54ef1680988330120a4e61eda970b-400wi
  • waccamatt

    Posts: 1918

    Apr 29, 2013 6:07 AM GMT
    Road89 saidI am a Christian, a man, and I am gay - in order of importance.

    Gay marriage is something I used to volley in my mind, however, I've come to the realization that if I am going to be gay then I have to be okay with gay marriage. To a degree I contradict myself anyway by living as a gay Christian. Should I contradict myself once more? Heavens No! In my mind - to me, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality so, I don't believe it's wrong. Living in a world where everyone tells you it is wrong, and that you need to change, and that you disgusting - it hurts. It makes it hard to believe in yourself, and your dreams. It makes it hard for you to set sturdy goals, and develop a life plan. It makes it hard to see past...today.

    Now that I am older and (thankfully) have started making up my own mind, I see that I can be gay and i can be a Christian. I also believe that marriage should be between two people that love each other enough to become united as one, forever. Frankly, I could care less if they call it marriage or civil union, or joining of the gays, lol, I could care less. The only thing I care about is that gay couples get all the same benefits as straight couples.

    When I was 14, before I knew for sure who I was, there was a picture in my head of my future. A large red ranch house with black shutters and white trimmings. A giant willow tree stood in a huge front yard, just adjacent to the house. Very nice green plush grass. All of this surrounded by a white picket fence. I stood with my wife and two children. When I realized that I was gay that dream died. I thought that there was no way for me to ever achieve that dream as a gay man. I was wrong. I am happy now that I have the courage to say that.

    You have to believe in you no matter what. If this is truly what you believe, then okay - not very many people will agree with you. However, I can't shoot you down for voicing you opinion. Although, I can suggest that you really think about what you are saying and ask yourself, "Is this really what i stand for?" I believe it to be severely important to know who you are before you say who you are...Do you understand?



    You'll be a lot happier if you move religion way down the list.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2013 6:14 AM GMT
    What's more masculine? Changing who you are in aspirations of fitting into a predetermined set of 'Masculinity' criteria? Or being the fuck who you are and owning every aspect of that person?

    trying to redevelop yourself into what some douchebag who writes books' idea of Masculine is sounds like a pretty bitch move to me.
  • 1blind_dog

    Posts: 376

    Apr 29, 2013 8:02 AM GMT
    Road89 saidI am a Christian, a man, and I am gay - in order of importance.

    Gay marriage is something I used to volley in my mind, however, I've come to the realization that if I am going to be gay then I have to be okay with gay marriage. To a degree I contradict myself anyway by living as a gay Christian. Should I contradict myself once more? Heavens No! In my mind - to me, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality so, I don't believe it's wrong. Living in a world where everyone tells you it is wrong, and that you need to change, and that you disgusting - it hurts. It makes it hard to believe in yourself, and your dreams. It makes it hard for you to set sturdy goals, and develop a life plan. It makes it hard to see past...today.

    Now that I am older and (thankfully) have started making up my own mind, I see that I can be gay and i can be a Christian. I also believe that marriage should be between two people that love each other enough to become united as one, forever. Frankly, I could care less if they call it marriage or civil union, or joining of the gays, lol, I could care less. The only thing I care about is that gay couples get all the same benefits as straight couples.

    When I was 14, before I knew for sure who I was, there was a picture in my head of my future. A large red ranch house with black shutters and white trimmings. A giant willow tree stood in a huge front yard, just adjacent to the house. Very nice green plush grass. All of this surrounded by a white picket fence. I stood with my wife and two children. When I realized that I was gay that dream died. I thought that there was no way for me to ever achieve that dream as a gay man. I was wrong. I am happy now that I have the courage to say that.

    You have to believe in you no matter what. If this is truly what you believe, then okay - not very many people will agree with you. However, I can't shoot you down for voicing you opinion. Although, I can suggest that you really think about what you are saying and ask yourself, "Is this really what i stand for?" I believe it to be severely important to know who you are before you say who you are...Do you understand?



    Anybody else read this response in the voice of Morgan Freeman? The third paragraph especially
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    Apr 29, 2013 9:00 AM GMT
    Ok, OP, I will give you the benefit of doubt. Maybe you are not a troll since you seem to be honest in your belief about marriage.

    But I think you are wrong about the historical perspective of marriage being for a man and a woman. Since you are into reading books you might try to educate yourself about the history of marriage between men which predates the use of a loving marriage between heterosexuals by more than a thousand years. John Boswell, Same Sex Unions in Premodern Europe. Heterosexual marriage for most of the last millenium was for the transfer of property. Many of the rites used in heterosexual marriage ceremonies came from the rites previously used to by homosexual couples.

    Also, it is contradictory for you to believe so strong in individualism and at the same time want to exclude other gay men from having the legal status of marriage. What is wrong with you seeking the type of manly relationship you seek without denying others to do what they seek.

    I have been legally married in Spain for almost seven years to my life partner, my husband and lover. The additional rights that I have will never be satisfied for your type of relationship with a lawyer if you live in some States where marriage between two men is illegal.
  • gymlocker

    Posts: 159

    Apr 29, 2013 10:08 AM GMT
    This must have been something written during your "whiskey dreams"...if you don't want to identify as gay, at least allow the people that do to have some measure of equality.
    While I believe that government has no business sanctioning ANY religious ceremonies, and religions have no business enforcing contracts, I do believe that marriage should be an option for any two adult humans, and should be a necessity for anyone having children. Marriage, after all, is nothing more than informally agreeing to split the costs of a financial arrangement, and as such, is better put into a written contract so that it can be studied and referred to before being entered into, as well as afterward. Since people have become so fucking stupid, it's important to have that, at least to protect any children involved, and mostly to protect dumbasses from themselves.
    If religions want to have a nice dress up ceremony with god as their witness, let them have it as part of the big party. Religions are nothing more than a crutch for the underinformed and ignorant, anyway. But make sure the government also gets your signature on a written contract that says you're going to pay for any kids you decide to raise and for your half of any of the financial messes you create. And for god's sake, everyone should have a prenup these days. Don't be stupid....when the love is gone, only the money remains to fight over. Save yourself some aggravation. Straight or gay, it's all the same...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2013 10:53 AM GMT
    Well, OP, unfortunately, I am pretty sure that Westboro Baptist Church doesn't accept former gays as members. Once an abomination, always an abomination... icon_eek.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2013 11:42 AM GMT
    whiskydreams saidMy ever devolving stance on MY INDIVIDUAL INTEREST IN marriage


    fixed! cheers! and welcome to RJ! icon_razz.gif
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Apr 29, 2013 12:56 PM GMT
    Alright, OP; I'll give you the "benefit of the doubt", too.

    I've read "Androphilia", and although I couldn't more vehemently disagree with 90% of what he says, I'm not dismissing him out of hand; neither are a lot of very "gay" (and very good) writers and scholars. But as Alexander7 suggested, there is an awful lot here that is misunderstood, misconstrued, misinterpreted, and just not well thought it.

    As someone else suggested, it's never good to try to get your questions answered from just one book; so here goes:

    Apart from the absolute must of Boswell's "Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe" (New York: Villard, 1994) (and which will at least clear up the perennial confusion between "marriage" and "matrimony" for you), some others for your reading list:

    "Fire in the Belly: On Being a Man", by Sam Keen (London: Piatkus, 1992). This was written when your buddy Donovan was.....18. A lot of what Donovan "says" was already done in this book, which he has clearly read.

    "The Feminization of American Culture", by Ann Douglas (New York: FSG, 1977). A lot of what you "say" was already done....long ago, and brilliantly, in this book.

    "Hidden from History: Reclaiming the Gay and Lesbian Past", George Chauncey et al., editors (New York: New American Library, 1989). That you don't feel - or never did - "oppressed" as a "gay man" is your own affair; the implication that we are/were not will be blown to smithereens by this heavily annotated tour de force.

    "Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the Making of the Gay May World, 1890-1940", by George Chauncey (New York: Basic, 1994). Winner of the Los Angeles Times Book Prize for History...and for good reason.

    To counter the 90% of "Androphilia" that I disagree with, and also to give context on "how far we've come":

    "Male Homosexuality: A Contemporary Psychoanalytic Perspective", by Richard C: Friedman (New Haven: Yale U.P., 198icon_cool.gif.

    And just so you can get an overall "handle" on this small matter of "gayness", a couple of other landmark texts:

    "Homosexuality: A Philosophical Inquiry", by Michael Ruse (Oxford: Blackwell, 198icon_cool.gif.

    "Greek Homosexuality", by K.J.Dover (Cambridge: Harvard U.P., 197icon_cool.gif.

    "Roman Homosexuality: Ideologies of Masculinity in Classical Antiquity", by Craig A. Williams (London: Oxford U.P., 1999).

    And something that will really open your eyes....

    "Islamic Homosexualities: Culture, History, and Literature", Stephen O. Murray (New York: NYU Press, 1997).

    When you're done with those, everything written by Jeffrey Weeks who, unlike Donovan, actually knows what he's talking about.

    "A little learning is a dangerous thing." (Alexander Pope, "Essay on Criticism").




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    Apr 29, 2013 12:59 PM GMT
    So much stupid.

    You can't get the legal benefits without the status. Calling it something different doesn't work, because the haters fight against that too. Marriage has been an incredibly effective issue, because reasonable people immediately see how loving gay couples are being discriminated against.

    Don't want to get married? Then don't. But get the fuck out of the way.
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    Apr 29, 2013 1:10 PM GMT
    Gay shame
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    Apr 29, 2013 2:59 PM GMT


    "The problem with this whole ‘equality’ argument — is that it essentially gay sounds like spoiled brats who want something just because they can’t have it."

    Dear OP, whilst you have been thinking a desire for equal rights sounds like spoiled brats etc etc etc, , much of the Western world disagreed with you and has moved on.

    At year 20 of our relationship we married, this year is year 24.

    *waves at Alexander7*

    I suggest you spend some time in a country with full 100% equality for gay people.
    There is no place I can go in Canada where I am not equal in every way.

    Best of all, we have a CHOICE. In British Columbia; you can get secularly married, or have a religious one IF a church is willing to, or just live together and wait for our Common-law marriage rules to kick in if you both so desire.





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    Apr 29, 2013 3:03 PM GMT
    And this is why I left RealJock.

    You can't say anything that goes against the modern, gay-gestapo, monolithic thought police of the gay community without feeling the love.

    The condescension and belittlement here, just because I choose to share ideas that are counter to mainstream thinking, is frankly disgusting.

    Is this what we've become? We tear each other down for having different opinions? Yikes.

    This is why we aren't a real community. We have nothing in common besides who we sleep with -- there is no shared camaraderie and understanding for those whose opinions differ. As is reinforced here again, if you don't identify as a victim, there is no place for you on the gay plantation.

    I don't apologize for sharing my thoughts, but I had no idea the intolerance from a community who claims to be about tolerance and accepting those who are different.

    Good talk, guys.
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Apr 29, 2013 3:03 PM GMT
    showme saidSo much stupid.

    Don't want to get married? Then don't. But get the fuck out of the way.

    So totally this.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2013 3:08 PM GMT
    whiskydreams saidAnd this is why I left RealJock.

    You can't say anything that goes against the modern, gay-gestapo, monolithic thought police of the gay community without feeling the love.

    The condescension and belittlement here, just because I choose to share ideas that are counter to mainstream thinking, is frankly disgusting.

    Is this what we've become? We tear each other down for having different opinions? Yikes.

    This is why we aren't a real community. We have nothing in common besides who we sleep with -- there is no shared camaraderie and understanding for those whose opinions differ. As is reinforced here again, if you don't identify as a victim, there is no place for you on the gay plantation.

    I don't apologize for sharing my thoughts, but I had no idea the intolerance from a community who claims to be about tolerance and accepting those who are different.

    Good talk, guys.


    Whiskey, it's not that you have a differing opinion; it's what that opinion is that's being critiqued. You've had a few non hostile replies - mine for example, so why don't you address those?

    The issues with your opinion is that it removes the equality of others - they should be entitled to marrying just as much as you are entitled not to. icon_wink.gif
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    Apr 29, 2013 3:11 PM GMT
    whiskydreams saidAnd this is why I left RealJock.


    Well, that was fast! Until next time! icon_lol.gif
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Apr 29, 2013 3:16 PM GMT
    whiskydreams saidAnd this is why I left RealJock.

    You can't say anything that goes against the modern, gay-gestapo, monolithic thought police of the gay community without feeling the love.

    The condescension and belittlement here, just because I choose to share ideas that are counter to mainstream thinking, is frankly disgusting.

    Is this what we've become? We tear each other down for having different opinions? Yikes.

    This is why we aren't a real community. We have nothing in common besides who we sleep with -- there is no shared camaraderie and understanding for those whose opinions differ. As is reinforced here again, if you don't identify as a victim, there is no place for you on the gay plantation.

    I don't apologize for sharing my thoughts, but I had no idea the intolerance from a community who claims to be about tolerance and accepting those who are different.

    Good talk, guys.


    Your language might be a bit harsh ("gay gestapo thought police"), but I am actually going to agree with you on the tone and register of the vast majority of forum posts on real topics here (as opposed to the fun "game" topics).

    We seem to have forgotten that there can indeed be two rational arguments on both sides of an issue; we've all too easily become "Foxistas" (anyone disagrees with me.....point finger, laugh, ridicule, dismiss, and, most importantly of all, get "The Crowd" on your side). And so I, for one, would ask you not to leave RJ (again), but to have the courage of your convictions (the relative "right" or "wrongness" of them isn't the point), and maybe take comfort in what Henrik Ibsen knew years ago - a great playwright from a country whose genuine tolerance and openness puts ours to shame: Norway.

    "The majority is always wrong; the minority is rarely right."

    Good luck.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2013 3:16 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    whiskydreams saidAnd this is why I left RealJock.

    You can't say anything that goes against the modern, gay-gestapo, monolithic thought police of the gay community without feeling the love.

    The condescension and belittlement here, just because I choose to share ideas that are counter to mainstream thinking, is frankly disgusting.

    Is this what we've become? We tear each other down for having different opinions? Yikes.

    This is why we aren't a real community. We have nothing in common besides who we sleep with -- there is no shared camaraderie and understanding for those whose opinions differ. As is reinforced here again, if you don't identify as a victim, there is no place for you on the gay plantation.

    I don't apologize for sharing my thoughts, but I had no idea the intolerance from a community who claims to be about tolerance and accepting those who are different.

    Good talk, guys.


    Whiskey, it's not that you have a differing opinion; it's what that opinion is that's being critiqued. You've had a few non hostile replies - mine for example, so why don't you address those?

    The issues with your opinion is that it removes the equality of others - they should be entitled to marrying just as much as you are entitled not to. icon_wink.gif


    I'd be happy to. My question is about entitlement -- what exactly makes anyone entitled to be married? Why is it a right? I guess that's what I wonder. If you choose to commit your life to another person, regardless or you gender or whatever configuration it is in -- why is it so important that the 'state' approve of it by granting it a special status -- IE Marriage. If you can have the same legal rights in the sense of tax breaks, visitation, next of kin, property rights etc etc -- what's with it being called "marriage"? Why is that name is so important to it? Why can't that word just be left alone -- I'm wondering, isn't there something fundamentally different about the relationships between men/men, men/women and women/women? Just for the sake of argument, why would we try to fit what is between us -- in to the construct of 'marriage,' which for all intents and purposes, has been historically, predominantly between men and women.

    As I suggested earlier, there have been relationships between men that have regarded by their communities as more important than marriage.

    I'm just wondering why we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, so hard.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Apr 29, 2013 3:18 PM GMT
    whiskydreams saidAnd this is why I left RealJock.

    You can't say anything that goes against the modern, gay-gestapo, monolithic thought police of the gay community without feeling the love.

    The condescension and belittlement here, just because I choose to share ideas that are counter to mainstream thinking, is frankly disgusting.

    Is this what we've become? We tear each other down for having different opinions? Yikes.

    This is why we aren't a real community. We have nothing in common besides who we sleep with -- there is no shared camaraderie and understanding for those whose opinions differ. As is reinforced here again, if you don't identify as a victim, there is no place for you on the gay plantation.

    I don't apologize for sharing my thoughts, but I had no idea the intolerance from a community who claims to be about tolerance and accepting those who are different.

    Good talk, guys.


    I accept that you want to create a new version of coupling for yourself. But your intolerance for those who want to be treated equallly under law, not so much.

    As I've said many times before, holding tolerance as a core value does not require one to tolerate intolerance. Even if it's coming from one of our own.

    You might learn something if you stay.