Hospital Prices No Longer Secret As New Data Reveals Bewildering System, Staggering Cost Differences

  • metta

    Posts: 39169

    May 08, 2013 11:55 PM GMT
    Hospital Prices No Longer Secret As New Data Reveals Bewildering System, Staggering Cost Differences

    "When a patient arrives at Bayonne Hospital Center in New Jersey requiring treatment for the respiratory ailment known as COPD, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, she faces an official price tag of $99,690.

    Less than 30 miles away in the Bronx, N.Y., the Lincoln Medical and Mental Health Center charges only $7,044 for the same treatment, according to a massive federal database of national health care costs made public on Wednesday."


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/08/hospital-prices-cost-differences_n_3232678.html

    Search The Database:

    https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/Medicare-Provider-Charge-Data/index.html
  • Apparition

    Posts: 3534

    May 09, 2013 9:29 AM GMT
    universal healthcare solves this
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    May 09, 2013 1:08 PM GMT
    Apparition saiduniversal healthcare solves this
    How? The problem is the lack of transparency. Many of these hospitals are supposedly "not for profit" hospitals gouging their patients.
  • metta

    Posts: 39169

    May 09, 2013 3:26 PM GMT
    I'm not sure of the best way to fix this. It would be great if they could come up with a way to require charges to be fairly priced: enough to be able to pay for proper treatment but not enough to be unethical. I think that overcharging people for health care is unethical to the point that it should be illegal to do so. And hospitals should be required to refund overcharges and fined stiff penalties on top of that when it does happen to discourage them from continuing with that practice.

    No system is perfect, but personally, I would prefer a national health care system that is not dependent on businesses paying for each employee. I would rather see a tax included in federal taxes paid by individuals and businesses to pay for it. That way people never have to worry about losing their coverage or their assets. It seems like it would be a much more ethical and humane way to handle health care. Not to mention the time saved by not having to fill out those health care forms every time someone goes in.
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    May 09, 2013 3:41 PM GMT
    Alternatively, instead of forcing different hospitals to charge arbitrary prices, make them publish their prices and their results instead of the obfuscation and let the chips fall where they may. You make the mistake of assuming all hospitals perform the same tasks the same.

    Instead of designing systems for the exceptions, maybe they should be designed as if people can make some of their own choices. There are already hospitals that do this and advertise for this.

    And those forms? Guess who implemented most of them - and it's not like government run healthcare systems don't generate paperwork as well (I've been told by friends who are specialists it's also an issue here though not as large as the US). Insurers in the US follow the system as provided by Medicare.

    There are developing solutions like Qliance and MedLion that charge one cash fee or a basic subscription for services. It's ridiculous that there's this idea that insurance should cover everything in healthcare. Take your car for instance, no one expects insurance to cover tune ups and basic maintenance. And despite all this, this is where the majority of costs can be contained in basically any system.
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    May 09, 2013 4:39 PM GMT
    Yes, it's those stats again! You Americans are getting fleeced.

    060511krugman1-blog480.jpg

    On measures of efficiency, the U.S ranked last due to low marks when it comes to spending on administrative costs, use of information technology, re-hospitalization, and duplicative medical testing. Nineteen percent of U.S. adults with chronic conditions reported they visited an emergency department for a condition that could have been treated by a regular doctor, had one been available, more than three times the rate of patients in Germany or the Netherlands (6%).

    http://www.commonwealthfund.org/News/News-Releases/2010/Jun/US-Ranks-Last-Among-Seven-Countries.aspx
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    May 09, 2013 4:42 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidYes, it's those stats again! You Americans are getting fleeced.

    060511krugman1-blog480.jpg

    On measures of efficiency, the U.S ranked last due to low marks when it comes to spending on administrative costs, use of information technology, re-hospitalization, and duplicative medical testing. Nineteen percent of U.S. adults with chronic conditions reported they visited an emergency department for a condition that could have been treated by a regular doctor, had one been available, more than three times the rate of patients in Germany or the Netherlands (6%).

    http://www.commonwealthfund.org/News/News-Releases/2010/Jun/US-Ranks-Last-Among-Seven-Countries.aspx


    Oh it's those debunked stats that show nothing particularly relevant to the American context and do nothing in terms of offering guidance for future policy.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/01/shocker-oregon-health-study-shows-no-significant-health-impacts-from-joining-medicaid.html
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    May 09, 2013 4:49 PM GMT
    You may imagine you have debunked them, Riddler, but the stats are from a highly reputable source (The Commonwealth Fund) and the methodology is perfectly valid, as detailed in their report.
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    May 09, 2013 4:52 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidYou may imagine you have debunked them, Riddler, but the stats are from a highly reputable source (The Commonwealth Fund) and the methodology is perfectly valid, as detailed in their report.


    You mean the liberal advocacy group? Yeah really reputable. icon_rolleyes.gif. For a thorough debunking:
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/08/another_bogus_report_card_fo1.html and here:
    http://healthblog.ncpa.org/commonwealth-ranking-are-we-really-19th-out-of-19/

    Um, I'm kind of disappointed in myself I didn't do a quick google of the fund and its research before - but thank you for bring their lack of repute to my attention. And sorry, but again the methodology doesn't show causality whereas the other study shows that there is no causality - and is you know, an actual peer reviewed research study.
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    May 09, 2013 5:02 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Um, I'm kind of disappointed in myself I didn't do a quick google of the fund and its research before - but thank you for bring their lack of repute to my attention.


    Would you care to substantiate your claim regarding their 'lack of repute' or is this just another case of your taking pot shots at the messenger?
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    May 09, 2013 5:03 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 said
    riddler78 said
    Um, I'm kind of disappointed in myself I didn't do a quick google of the fund and its research before - but thank you for bring their lack of repute to my attention.


    Would you care to substantiate your claim regarding their 'lack of repute' or is this just another case of your taking pot shots at the messenger?


    Links as posted above and their advocacy is not in dispute. Further, their evidence doesn't even support their claims as again the links above show. On the other hand, this is another good example of you attempting to create evidence to fit your views and not taking the time to read and understand other evidence.

    Incidentally, do please point to other examples of my taking pot shots at the messenger instead of addressing the argument. Unlike your comments in for instance the Euro thread where you don't actually bother to address the underlying issues.
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    May 09, 2013 5:17 PM GMT
    Yeah, Riddy, doubtless the NCPA (a right-wing think tank) and John Stossel (a Fox News business anchor) are highly reputable sources, in your book.

    P.S. The 'messenger' to which I was referring was the Commonwealth Fund and not me personally. I'm not that thin skinned.
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    May 09, 2013 5:22 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidYeah, Riddy, doubtless the NCPA (a right-wing think tank) and John Stossel (a Fox News business anchor) are highly reputable sources, in your book.

    P.S. The 'messenger' to which I was referring was the Commonwealth Fund and not me personally.


    Oh I know precisely what you were referring to. As for NCPA and Stossel - they've outlined very clearly the issues with the data provided by the Commonwealth Fund which is incidentally, headed by Democrats.

    For instance, did you even know Karen Davis's history? So the Commonwealth fund is a liberal think tank - and the NCPA is a conservative one. Who did you say was shooting the messenger? And yet, I note you don't even attempt to understand their study.

    I've also pointed out the primary issue here that the evidence they show doesn't show causality. You're ridiculous - but amusingly so since apparently you don't even have the self awareness to realize it.
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    May 09, 2013 5:39 PM GMT
    Liberal? Of the eleven Commonwealth Fund board members, five are very senior medical doctors, two are investment management executives and one is a company managing director. Karen Davis isn't on the board.
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    May 09, 2013 5:45 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidLiberal? Of the eleven Commonwealth Fund board members, five are very senior medical doctors, two are investment management executives and one is a company managing director. Karen Davis isn't even on the board.


    The study as you provided was during her tenure, where she had a singleminded focus on advocating single payor healthcare. She resigned after being President of the organization for 20 years. Just because they are doctors doesn't mean that they don't have agendas - or that if they sit on the board they advocate for and agree with the research published. The primary example of which is the lack of causal relationship they conclude with but do not even have evidence for in their research.

    I again repeat my last comment: you didn't attempt to understand their study and you claim that I am attacking the messenger. I've also shown how easily their study was debunked - and it's also telling how the media presented this research as being from just a private foundation instead of a partisan Democrat.

    But meh - by all means, I'm all for looking at any research they present - but do please actually try to show data that supports your conclusions.
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    May 09, 2013 5:59 PM GMT
    It's clear you don't bother reading half the links you post, Riddler, so please don't expect us to believe you have studied the objective data presented in the Fund's report.
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    May 09, 2013 6:01 PM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 saidIt's clear you don't bother reading half the links you post, Riddler, so please don't expect us to believe you have studied the objective data presented in the Fund's report.


    Objective data? Right. Try selling your bullshit to someone who might actually believe you. icon_rolleyes.gif

    It's funny that you don't even understand the underlying data nor the disconnect with their conclusions. All you can do is shoot the messenger without a basic attempt at using facts. So keep flailing icon_wink.gif
  • Apparition

    Posts: 3534

    May 09, 2013 8:23 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    Apparition saiduniversal healthcare solves this
    How? The problem is the lack of transparency. Many of these hospitals are supposedly "not for profit" hospitals gouging their patients.


    look up what "universal" means.
    when one guy is paying, he kinda notices if things are different prices for no reason.
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    May 09, 2013 8:31 PM GMT
    Apparition said
    riddler78 said
    Apparition saiduniversal healthcare solves this
    How? The problem is the lack of transparency. Many of these hospitals are supposedly "not for profit" hospitals gouging their patients.


    look up what "universal" means.
    when one guy is paying, he kinda notices if things are different prices for no reason.


    Yes because the government would pay only for things that make sense because they're not just spending "someone else's" money...

    It also doesn't create an incentive for innovating within procedures. For instance, if you look at some hospitals in the US they are able to do heart surgeries for a fraction of the cost of what it is in Canada. And then you have things like the Shouldice clinic near Toronto that treats hernias where you have some of the lowest percentage of recidivisms in the world because they focus solely on hernias - doing it more cheaply and effectively than others (and it's a private clinic for what it's worth).
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    May 09, 2013 9:13 PM GMT


    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a4J.ER8r4CrM
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    May 09, 2013 9:15 PM GMT
    meninlove said

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a4J.ER8r4CrM


    Again you seem to have chosen to completely misunderstand what I said.
    For emphasis - there are some hospitals in the US that are able to perform heart surgery at a fraction of the cost of Canada. Overall US hospitals are considerably more expensive.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 09, 2013 9:18 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    meninlove said

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a4J.ER8r4CrM


    Again you seem to have chosen to completely misunderstand what I said.
    For emphasis - there are some hospitals in the US that are able to perform heart surgery at a fraction of the cost of Canada. Overall US hospitals are considerably more expensive.


    Again you assume I'm talking to you.
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    May 09, 2013 9:19 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    riddler78 said
    meninlove said

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a4J.ER8r4CrM


    Again you seem to have chosen to completely misunderstand what I said.
    For emphasis - there are some hospitals in the US that are able to perform heart surgery at a fraction of the cost of Canada. Overall US hospitals are considerably more expensive.


    Again you assume I'm talking to you.


    Oh you're so clever. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 09, 2013 9:21 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    meninlove said
    riddler78 said
    meninlove said

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a4J.ER8r4CrM


    Again you seem to have chosen to completely misunderstand what I said.
    For emphasis - there are some hospitals in the US that are able to perform heart surgery at a fraction of the cost of Canada. Overall US hospitals are considerably more expensive.


    Again you assume I'm talking to you.


    Oh you're so clever. icon_rolleyes.gif


    The link was posted for others that have emailed me asking me about comparative differences. I said I'd post a link.

    You have a problem.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    May 09, 2013 9:26 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    riddler78 said
    meninlove said
    riddler78 said
    meninlove said

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a4J.ER8r4CrM


    Again you seem to have chosen to completely misunderstand what I said.
    For emphasis - there are some hospitals in the US that are able to perform heart surgery at a fraction of the cost of Canada. Overall US hospitals are considerably more expensive.


    Again you assume I'm talking to you.


    Oh you're so clever. icon_rolleyes.gif


    The link was posted for others that have emailed me asking me about comparative differences. I said I'd post a link.

    You have a problem.


    Sure they did sweetie. icon_wink.gif