Meanwhile, in Russia

  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 25, 2013 9:26 PM GMT
    http://news.sky.com/story/1095386/russia-gay-rights-activists-arrested-at-rally
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    May 26, 2013 4:01 AM GMT
    Sad about the story of the dude who was tortured and killed by his friends...

    Russians are hot though icon_cool.gif
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 26, 2013 7:33 PM GMT
    Minion saidSad about the story of the dude who was tortured and killed by his friends...

    Russians are hot though icon_cool.gif


    Very hot, though I think Polish guys (Polish Polish not Polish-American) are the most attractive. Though I would not want to be openly gay in Russia i'll tell you that.
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    May 26, 2013 7:37 PM GMT
    In Ukraine they had first Gay Pride, small but still encouraging step for a homophobic country like Ukraine.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22667015
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    May 26, 2013 7:40 PM GMT
    Why do everyday Russians are moving backwards?icon_confused.gif
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    May 26, 2013 8:12 PM GMT
    Bharatiya saidWhy do everyday Russians are moving backwards?icon_confused.gif


    yes, they do. cause the situation in the country is not getting any better, they are regressing everyday... more and more.
  • BIG_N_TALL

    Posts: 2190

    May 26, 2013 8:21 PM GMT
    vitaliyvloan said
    Bharatiya saidWhy do everyday Russians are moving backwards?icon_confused.gif


    yes, they do. cause the situation in the country is not getting any better, they are regressing everyday... more and more.


    I'm pretty sure the situation in the US and Europe haven't helped. From what I have read and inferred, Putin, who is arguably still a solid believer in the Soviet system of governance, thinks the financial crisis in Europe and the US are proof that democratic pluralism and capitalism are the undoing of the West. While things were going great, everyone loved capitalism, consumerism, and the democratic process. Now that the party is over, people are looking at alternatives to the status quo.

    When times get bad, people tend to migrate towards the hard left or right of the political spectrum. You see it happening in Europe in places like France, Italy, Greece, etc.today. It happened in the 1910s and 1930s during the 20th century. Russia is no different, but they have an established history of mistrusting Western reverence of consumerism and political liberalism. As far as some are concerned in Russia, they've been proven right with the political gridlock of democracy and a growing gap between the affluent and the poor.
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    May 26, 2013 8:33 PM GMT
    BIG_N_TALL said
    vitaliyvloan said
    Bharatiya saidWhy do everyday Russians are moving backwards?icon_confused.gif


    yes, they do. cause the situation in the country is not getting any better, they are regressing everyday... more and more.


    I'm pretty sure the situation in the US and Europe haven't helped. From what I have read and inferred, Putin, who is arguably still a solid believer in the Soviet system of governance, thinks the financial crisis in Europe and the US are proof that democratic pluralism and capitalism are the undoing of the West. While things were going great, everyone loved capitalism, consumerism, and the democratic process. Now that the party is over, people are looking at alternatives to the status quo.

    When times get bad, people tend to migrate towards the hard left or right of the political spectrum. You see it happening in Europe in places like France, Italy, Greece, etc.today. It happened in the 1910s and 1930s during the 20th century. Russia is no different, but they have an established history of mistrusting Western reverence of consumerism and political liberalism. As far as some are concerned in Russia, they've been proven right with the political gridlock of democracy and a growing gap between the affluent and the poor.


    I don't see what gays have to do with this. But when you think about it it's not really about us. We are being used to usher in a new form of communism,
  • BIG_N_TALL

    Posts: 2190

    May 26, 2013 8:57 PM GMT
    MisfitToy said
    BIG_N_TALL said
    vitaliyvloan said
    Bharatiya saidWhy do everyday Russians are moving backwards?icon_confused.gif


    yes, they do. cause the situation in the country is not getting any better, they are regressing everyday... more and more.


    I'm pretty sure the situation in the US and Europe haven't helped. From what I have read and inferred, Putin, who is arguably still a solid believer in the Soviet system of governance, thinks the financial crisis in Europe and the US are proof that democratic pluralism and capitalism are the undoing of the West. While things were going great, everyone loved capitalism, consumerism, and the democratic process. Now that the party is over, people are looking at alternatives to the status quo.

    When times get bad, people tend to migrate towards the hard left or right of the political spectrum. You see it happening in Europe in places like France, Italy, Greece, etc.today. It happened in the 1910s and 1930s during the 20th century. Russia is no different, but they have an established history of mistrusting Western reverence of consumerism and political liberalism. As far as some are concerned in Russia, they've been proven right with the political gridlock of democracy and a growing gap between the affluent and the poor.


    I don't see what gays have to do with this. But when you think about it it's not really about us. We are being used to usher in a new form of communism,


    It does. You have a disposition in Europe and Russia where they want to be the external threat. LBGT people have traditionally fallen into that category, whether it be real or imagined. When you read/watch Russian media opposed to gay rights, they tend to always associate those rights with the West or 'Western corruption' of traditional Russian values. The economic issues are icing on the cake in that regard. People in Russia see where the country/world is going and they don't like it, politically, economically, and socially.

    They want order, meaning, and opportunities again. These are things a lot of people feel deprived of in the world today because of the economy. One of the first people to be seen as a threat will be gay people because they are stepping out of line with the old order; an order a lot of people are reminiscing over in Russia. The same thing is happening in the US, just a different dynamic and methodology.
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    May 26, 2013 9:17 PM GMT
    BIG_N_TALL said
    MisfitToy said
    BIG_N_TALL said
    vitaliyvloan said
    Bharatiya saidWhy do everyday Russians are moving backwards?icon_confused.gif


    yes, they do. cause the situation in the country is not getting any better, they are regressing everyday... more and more.


    I'm pretty sure the situation in the US and Europe haven't helped. From what I have read and inferred, Putin, who is arguably still a solid believer in the Soviet system of governance, thinks the financial crisis in Europe and the US are proof that democratic pluralism and capitalism are the undoing of the West. While things were going great, everyone loved capitalism, consumerism, and the democratic process. Now that the party is over, people are looking at alternatives to the status quo.

    When times get bad, people tend to migrate towards the hard left or right of the political spectrum. You see it happening in Europe in places like France, Italy, Greece, etc.today. It happened in the 1910s and 1930s during the 20th century. Russia is no different, but they have an established history of mistrusting Western reverence of consumerism and political liberalism. As far as some are concerned in Russia, they've been proven right with the political gridlock of democracy and a growing gap between the affluent and the poor.


    I don't see what gays have to do with this. But when you think about it it's not really about us. We are being used to usher in a new form of communism,


    It does. You have a disposition in Europe and Russia where they want to be the external threat. LBGT people have traditionally fallen into that category, whether it be real or imagined. When you read/watch Russian media opposed to gay rights, they tend to always associate those rights with the West or 'Western corruption' of traditional Russian values. The economic issues are icing on the cake in that regard. People in Russia see where the country/world is going and they don't like it, politically, economically, and socially.

    They want order, meaning, and opportunities again. These are things a lot of people feel deprived of in the world today because of the economy. One of the first people to be seen as a threat will be gay people because they are stepping out of line with the old order; an order a lot of people are reminiscing over in Russia. The same thing is happening in the US, just a different dynamic and methodology.


    But a lot of people in America are realizing we literally have nothing to do with any downfall. The Russian people should blame their government for the way things are. Putin has been in charge for a long time right? He's had more than enough time to clean things up. What about the world don't they like?
  • BIG_N_TALL

    Posts: 2190

    May 26, 2013 9:22 PM GMT
    MisfitToy saidBut a lot of people in America are realizing we literally have nothing to do with any downfall. The Russian people should blame their government for the way things are. Putin has been in charge for a long time right? He's had more than enough time to clean things up. What about the world don't they like?


    You're not seeing the politics in this. It does not matter who is or isn't to blame. Create an enemy, any enemy, to further your agenda. Putin and those who are more inclined to "regress" Russia, see gay guys as a convenient enemy to utilize for their own ends. Homophobia in Russia is a long-standing issue. It is not an invention of Putin, but he has certainly capitalized on it. The economic implosion of the West only adds to the narrative.

    I don't know what you mean by Putin 'cleanings things up.' That last question is a rather loaded one, politically, economically and socially.
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    May 26, 2013 9:27 PM GMT
    BIG_N_TALL said
    MisfitToy saidBut a lot of people in America are realizing we literally have nothing to do with any downfall. The Russian people should blame their government for the way things are. Putin has been in charge for a long time right? He's had more than enough time to clean things up. What about the world don't they like?


    You're not seeing the politics in this. It does not matter who is or isn't to blame. Create an enemy, any enemy, to further your agenda. Putin and those who are more inclined to "regress" Russia, see gay guys as a convenient enemy to utilize for their own ends. Homophobia in Russia is a long-standing issue. It is not an invention of Putin, but he has certainly capitalized on it. The economic implosion of the West only adds to the narrative.

    I don't know what you mean by Putin 'cleanings things up.' That last question is a rather loaded one, politically, economically and socially.


    Well basically if the Russian people are dissatisfied socially and economically hasn't he been in charge for a while? Didn't this happen on his watch as far as things in Russia are concerned? Can't anyone see that gays are just the stepping stone? Soon it's gonna be everyone else?
  • BIG_N_TALL

    Posts: 2190

    May 26, 2013 9:45 PM GMT
    MisfitToy saidWell basically if the Russian people are dissatisfied socially and economically hasn't he been in charge for a while? Didn't this happen on his watch as far as things in Russia are concerned? Can't anyone see that gays are just the stepping stone? Soon it's gonna be everyone else?


    Russia in some regards has not recovered from the collapse of the Soviet Union. Likewise, East Germany has not fully recovered from the collapse even though it has been 'fully' reintegrated with Western Germany, or so they claim. It doesn't matter which country you live in; one leader can not always change things with a snap of their finger. Look at Obama for instance. Hitler and other authoritarian leaders might be the exception to the rule because they don't have to answer to anyone. The democratic process is designed to take forever to get anything done, though today's US government is beyond the status of being dysfunctional.

    When you don't have to answer to anyone, you can get things done. Putin, in theory, is supposed to work in concert with the Duma, or the Russian legislative body. If Putin were a dictator, in essence, then yes, he could do a lot more to change things economically and politically. Throw into the ring the issue of globalization, and you have more of a problem. Russians alone are not thrilled with globalization. The French were just recently polled, and a majority think globalization has hurt France more than helped. Most people I know in the US think globalization has been a fool's errand, but just imagine living in a place like Europe or Russia where unemployment is even higher. The out-sourcing of jobs, and by extension opportunity, hasn't helped their economies.

    And yes, "everyone else" has the potential to be the next enemy. It doesn't matter who, like I said. The same thing happened with the Proletarian Revolution in Russia which brought about an end to the Czars. The same thing happened with the French over-throwing their monarchy in the late 18th century. The same thing happened in Germany right before the Nazis came into power in 1933. History doesn't repeat itself, but the rhyme is the same. Like I said before, create an enemy for your purposes, and what is happening to LGBT activists in Russia is an example of that. The stage is set. The LBGT activists are the actors on the stage.
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    May 26, 2013 9:55 PM GMT
    BIG_N_TALL said
    MisfitToy saidWell basically if the Russian people are dissatisfied socially and economically hasn't he been in charge for a while? Didn't this happen on his watch as far as things in Russia are concerned? Can't anyone see that gays are just the stepping stone? Soon it's gonna be everyone else?


    Russia in some regards has not recovered from the collapse of the Soviet Union. Likewise, East Germany has not fully recovered from the collapse even though it has been 'fully' reintegrated with Western Germany, or so they claim. It doesn't matter which country you live in; one leader can not always change things with a snap of their finger. Look at Obama for instance. Hitler and other authoritarian leaders might be the exception to the rule because they don't have to answer to anyone. The democratic process is designed to take forever to get anything done, though today's US government is beyond the status of being dysfunctional.

    When you don't have to answer to anyone, you can get things done. Putin, in theory, is supposed to work in concert with the Duma, or the Russian legislative body. If Putin were a dictator, in essence, then yes, he could do a lot more to change things economically and politically. Throw into the ring the issue of globalization, and you have more of a problem. Russians alone are not thrilled with globalization. The French were just recently polled, and a majority think globalization has hurt France more than helped. Most people I know in the US think globalization has been a fool's errand, but just imagine living in a place like Europe or Russia where unemployment is even higher. The out-sourcing of jobs, and by extension opportunity, hasn't helped their economies.

    And yes, "everyone else" has the potential to be the next enemy. It doesn't matter who, like I said. The same thing happened with the Proletarian Revolution in Russia which brought about an end to the Czars. The same thing happened with the French over-throwing their monarchy in the late 18th century. The same thing happened in Germany right before the Nazis came into power in 1933. History doesn't repeat itself, but the rhyme is the same. Like I said before, create an enemy for your purposes, and what is happening to LGBT activists in Russia is an example of that. The stage is set. The LBGT activists are the actors on the stage.


    The thing I don't get is that the LGBT activists and the gay people literally d not wield as much power as the monarchs in France or the Czars in Russia. I get what you're saying but it's still very fucked up to me.
  • BIG_N_TALL

    Posts: 2190

    May 26, 2013 9:57 PM GMT
    MisfitToy saidThe thing I don't get is that the LGBT activists and the gay people literally d not wield as much power as the monarchs in France or the Czars in Russia. I get what you're saying but it's still very fucked up to me.


    The world is a very fucked up place.
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    May 26, 2013 9:59 PM GMT
    BIG_N_TALL said
    MisfitToy saidThe thing I don't get is that the LGBT activists and the gay people literally d not wield as much power as the monarchs in France or the Czars in Russia. I get what you're saying but it's still very fucked up to me.


    The world is a very fucked up place.


    Isn't there something western countries can do? Can't we put sanctions on Russia like we did with Iran?
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    May 26, 2013 10:01 PM GMT
    MisfitToy said
    BIG_N_TALL said
    MisfitToy saidWell basically if the Russian people are dissatisfied socially and economically hasn't he been in charge for a while? Didn't this happen on his watch as far as things in Russia are concerned? Can't anyone see that gays are just the stepping stone? Soon it's gonna be everyone else?


    Russia in some regards has not recovered from the collapse of the Soviet Union. Likewise, East Germany has not fully recovered from the collapse even though it has been 'fully' reintegrated with Western Germany, or so they claim. It doesn't matter which country you live in; one leader can not always change things with a snap of their finger. Look at Obama for instance. Hitler and other authoritarian leaders might be the exception to the rule because they don't have to answer to anyone. The democratic process is designed to take forever to get anything done, though today's US government is beyond the status of being dysfunctional.

    When you don't have to answer to anyone, you can get things done. Putin, in theory, is supposed to work in concert with the Duma, or the Russian legislative body. If Putin were a dictator, in essence, then yes, he could do a lot more to change things economically and politically. Throw into the ring the issue of globalization, and you have more of a problem. Russians alone are not thrilled with globalization. The French were just recently polled, and a majority think globalization has hurt France more than helped. Most people I know in the US think globalization has been a fool's errand, but just imagine living in a place like Europe or Russia where unemployment is even higher. The out-sourcing of jobs, and by extension opportunity, hasn't helped their economies.

    And yes, "everyone else" has the potential to be the next enemy. It doesn't matter who, like I said. The same thing happened with the Proletarian Revolution in Russia which brought about an end to the Czars. The same thing happened with the French over-throwing their monarchy in the late 18th century. The same thing happened in Germany right before the Nazis came into power in 1933. History doesn't repeat itself, but the rhyme is the same. Like I said before, create an enemy for your purposes, and what is happening to LGBT activists in Russia is an example of that. The stage is set. The LBGT activists are the actors on the stage.


    The thing I don't get is that the LGBT activists and the gay people literally d not wield as much power as the monarchs in France or the Czars in Russia. I get what you're saying but it's still very fucked up to me.


    Ask the Queen of England. She would tell you....
  • BIG_N_TALL

    Posts: 2190

    May 26, 2013 10:09 PM GMT
    MisfitToy said
    BIG_N_TALL said
    MisfitToy saidThe thing I don't get is that the LGBT activists and the gay people literally d not wield as much power as the monarchs in France or the Czars in Russia. I get what you're saying but it's still very fucked up to me.


    The world is a very fucked up place.


    Isn't there something western countries can do? Can't we put sanctions on Russia like we did with Iran?


    You can in theory use NGOs and IGOs such as Amnesty International and the Untied Nations, respectively, to pressure the Russian government, however in the end, they can only do so much. If you haven't noticed, the UN has virtually little influence over issues nowadays short of harping on and on about them. No one listens to the UN or what it has to say because they have no enforcement authority. All they have is the ability to 'shame' you into not doing something. Though if you don't give a damn, shame will not deter you. NGOs like Amnesty International have been deemed "foreign agents" by Russia and it is becoming increasingly more difficult to use them to impact policy or politics in Russia.

    You can also apply sanctions as well, though the problem with that is it'll do more harm to the society/'normal' people than regime you are displeased with. It can backfire on you, and turn you into another "external threat" rather than a do-good'er. The other factor is that the economy is already really bad in Russia, do you think sanctions will really help the situation? They won't when people are already crunched, economically. Then you have to contend with the businesses that will be cut off from conducting 'business' in Russia, and that won't make them happy. They might even totally disregard the sanctions, even if it is illegal. It's much more complicated than it looks. This is a battle that has to be fought from the inside, not the outside. The question is how well can you play the game of politics? That is what will impact the success of your agenda.
  • matt13226

    Posts: 829

    May 26, 2013 10:15 PM GMT
    Minion saidSad about the story of the dude who was tortured and killed by his friends...

    Russians are hot though icon_cool.gif

    I agree
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    May 26, 2013 10:21 PM GMT
    BIG_N_TALL said
    MisfitToy said
    BIG_N_TALL said
    MisfitToy saidThe thing I don't get is that the LGBT activists and the gay people literally d not wield as much power as the monarchs in France or the Czars in Russia. I get what you're saying but it's still very fucked up to me.


    The world is a very fucked up place.


    Isn't there something western countries can do? Can't we put sanctions on Russia like we did with Iran?


    You can in theory use NGOs and IGOs such as Amnesty International and the Untied Nations, respectively, to pressure the Russian government, however in the end, they can only do so much. If you haven't noticed, the UN has virtually little influence over issues nowadays short of harping on and on about them. No one listens to the UN or what it has to say because they have no enforcement authority. All they have is the ability to 'shame' you into not doing something. Though if you don't give a damn, shame will not deter you. NGOs like Amnesty International have been deemed "foreign agents" by Russia and it is becoming increasingly more difficult to use them to impact policy or politics in Russia.

    You can also apply sanctions as well, though the problem with that is it'll do more harm to the society/'normal' people than regime you are displeased with. It can backfire on you, and turn you into another "external threat" rather than a do-good'er. The other factor is that the economy is already really bad in Russia, do you think sanctions will really help the situation? They won't when people are already crunched, economically. Then you have to contend with the businesses that will be cut off from conducting 'business' in Russia, and that won't make them happy. They might even totally disregard the sanctions, even if it is illegal. It's much more complicated than it looks. This is a battle that has to be fought from the inside, not the outside. The question is how well can you play the game of politics? That is what will impact the success of your agenda.


    So basically what options do the gay people and countless others who will be affected by this do to fight this back? Because honestly I see this as the beginning of the end in that country.
  • BIG_N_TALL

    Posts: 2190

    May 26, 2013 10:30 PM GMT
    MisfitToy saidSo basically what options do the gay people and countless others who will be affected by this do to fight this back? Because honestly I see this as the beginning of the end in that country.


    It'll be a long fight, but Russian values don't always align with American or Western values when it comes to human rights or democracy. Lobbying their government may do some good, but mind you, this is not the United States or Western Europe. Relying on Western non-governmental organizations (NGOs) might help, but like I said, the Russian government has deemed NGOs from the West as being foreign agents.

    That does not have a good connotation because the first thing people will think is you are there to destabilize or manipulate internal Russian affairs. The same holds true for Iran. There are limits to what can be done when it comes to the world of international relations. There is a long standing saying in the IR field, especially in diplomacy...... 'you don't want try to fix problems, you just do your best to manage them.'
  • FitGwynedd

    Posts: 1468

    May 26, 2013 10:52 PM GMT
    BIG_N_TALL said
    MisfitToy saidSo basically what options do the gay people and countless others who will be affected by this do to fight this back? Because honestly I see this as the beginning of the end in that country.


    It'll be a long fight, but Russian values don't always align with American or Western values when it comes to human rights or democracy. Lobbying their government may do some good, but mind you, this is not the United States or Western Europe. Relying on Western non-governmental organizations (NGOs) might help, but like I said, the Russian government has deemed NGOs from the West as being foreign agents.

    That does not have a good connotation because the first thing people will think is you are there to destabilize or manipulate internal Russian affairs. The same holds true for Iran. There are limits to what can be done when it comes to the world of international relations. There is a long standing saying in the IR field, especially in diplomacy...... 'you don't want try to fix problems, you just do your best to manage them.'


    IR is a load of a bollocks
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    May 26, 2013 10:57 PM GMT


    i also think that putin and russian government in a way encourages people to be aggressive towards lgbt-community by bringing in the laws against it. they just don't do anything to put it out. when in the states they somewhat promote the opposite idea, trying to educate children about the matter. well for the most part i think it works. and yet, everywhere from russia to usa violence happens. like, there's just no escape from people's ignorance and violent behavior. in new york city alone there been 9 (!!!) attacks on gays for the last 4 weeks, but to think about it: right this moment everywhere around the globe from rio to paris people go on the streets protesting against equal rights for gays. while in new york city there is unseen outburst of violence against the gays. to me it's pretty clear - we all connected, everything that happens in the world affects all of us, wherever we are and whatever we are doing. it's like harmony, bunch of people aggressively express themselves about something and that causes the fire on the opposite side of the planet. but what is unbearable - is that it feels pointless to call out for them to wake up and be normal to each other, cause... well, it's pointless; with blind raged people who's refusing to look at things from a different perspective.
    world is fucked up place, because people refuse to be normal.
  • BIG_N_TALL

    Posts: 2190

    May 26, 2013 11:25 PM GMT
    FitGwynedd saidIR is a load of a bollocks


    It's about saying everything but what you truly mean....