John43620... Gone?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 29, 2008 9:35 AM GMT
    After making a racist comment on another blog, John43620's profile was deleted. I'm sure most of you guys know who I am talkig about.

    However, I am somewhat disappointed. I read and reread his profile many times, and I came to the conclusion that-- he is a good person. John is just very very ignorant and narrowminded. We can say the same thing about fundamentalists. Most fundamentalists are GOOD PEOPLE... they just believe that their way is the "right way" and what they are doing is for "the greater good" (e.g. protecting tradition marriage). They too are misinformed in my opinion.

    Last night was the last straw (though I did not read his racist comments until this morning). I IM-ed John, and asked him if I could e-mail him some questions I had for him. I was very polite and even said "take care" when I ended the conversation.

    I wanted to understand John better because we differ greatly... not necessarily in our views... but in the way his views were presented on this site. I truely believe he liked picking fights with people and getting people mad. Then again the evidence he gave to support his views was biased and radical at best. John seems to be someone who listens to radicals, believes what they say, and finds other evidence to support his views based on the the information from those radicals (e.g. his Youtube clips of the Obama Youth). John stands on the shoulders of radicals.

    I wanted to try and get John to see a common ground with me and other MODERATE, FAIR-MINDED RJers. But when talking about John, we should look at ourselves.

    When John first joined RJ, did we present an inviting place for John and his non-traditional-gay views? Are us liberals being too radical ourselves that we are putting our friends "on the other side" on the defense? There is nothing wrong with stating your views. But what is the difference between John describing Obama as a "terrorist's best friend" and a radical liberal describing McCain as a racist bigot? I for one do not know McCain personally enough to know what is in his heart and cannot tell if he is racist.

    Comments like those about McCain's character, by EXTREME liberals, sets gay republicans on the defense

    Are we somewhat responsible for some of the responses (not what John wrote, but the way he resopnded) John made? Is a Radical Republican worse than a Radical Democrat? Both are too ridged to see the other side.

    I wanted a chance to better understand John and why he is the way he is. I will never get that chance now. Celebrating Diversity includes those who are different from you and/or have different views

    "You can become so tolerant, that you are intolerant of those who are intolerant."

    -Unkown

    "For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal."

    -JFK-
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Oct 29, 2008 10:03 AM GMT
    Most people who think like John aren't evil just ill-informed
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    Oct 29, 2008 11:44 AM GMT
    GQjock saidMost people who think like John aren't evil just ill-informed

    "like John" no, there is something more than just ill-informed to be so callous at the murder of a child. And this something is what underlies such people's selfish conservative views. They are all about "me."
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Oct 29, 2008 11:45 AM GMT
    Well let me say most of the republicans on this site are pretty reasonable people, they just have differing political views and if they have a basis for their positions, I think they should be respected.

    For me, John was in a different category. He had no respect for others views
    and his inflamatory remarks were made to encourage the same from other people. Some of his comments just didn't seem rationale to me.

    I agree with cjcscuba in that we need to be fair minded and accomodating if at all possible and I would think RJ would be the first to agree.. you should have all views from members from this site.

    But there is a line... and if his profile was terminated by RJ officials, I'm sure he had been warned and encouraged to adopt a more reasonable approach with his comments. He may have not chosen to do so.
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    Oct 29, 2008 12:10 PM GMT
    CaslonHussein7000 said
    GQjock saidMost people who think like John aren't evil just ill-informed

    "like John" no, there is something more than just ill-informed to be so callous at the murder of a child. And this something is what underlies such people's selfish conservative views. They are all about "me."


    I would just add one word to the above statements "And this something is what underlies SOME people's selfish conservative views."

    Religious conservatives are caring unselfish people. Who was the first to respond after Katrina hit? FEMA? no... faith-based organizations. What of charity for the poor... giving trees... thanksgiving meals for the poor... soup kitchens etc.

    Religious conservatives are good people... they just believe in different morals and values. Do they anger me a lot? HELL YA! But I could never categorize them as being selfish. Are they selfish sometimes? are they "all about me" sometimes? (e.g. against welfare, taxes, healthcare , etc.) Yes they are, but remember... they are human as are you and me. EVERYONE gets selfish sometimes or has selfish views becasue we are human.

    Most conservative will never change... same with liberals. Finding common ground is crutial. "United we stand?" No... Divided we fall.


    PS: I agree John did pass the line with his racially charged comment and what was done to his account was rational.
  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Oct 29, 2008 12:21 PM GMT
    I think it was the haircut!
  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Oct 29, 2008 12:35 PM GMT
    I also think the Republican party feeds on underlying racist feelings, that tends to grab a hold of some of their supporters. Those that have feelings of inadequacy and feel somehow that minorities are getting more than they should be, and making this threatening to their beings.
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    Oct 29, 2008 1:03 PM GMT
    If I remember correctly John was raised in a totalitarian environment. His father was very much "it is my way or the highway" type of parent. He spent many years in the military where you do not question authority and learn to follow orders. So not surprisingly many of his views others would consider reactionary and narrow-minded. George W. Bush is the commander-in-chief so we should not criticize him, despite the President's questionable competency.

    I don't think he was a nasty individual although it did come across that way at times.
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    Oct 29, 2008 1:18 PM GMT
    I live in the same town as John (hell I think we live near each other actually). At any rate, I didn't get a chance to read the post that got him kicked out, but I can say I did pretty much call that someone was going to boot him for difference of opinion.

    I mean these forums are not a fair and balanced place, that is obvious.

    I don't consider myself fundamentalist, I am pretty open-minded and I do see why people have the viewpoints that they do.

    I can't lump John in with the liberal posters that I see that spit venom towards candidates and those who support them. I mean when you can't be respectful and call John McCain by his real name you automatically lose any credibility with me.

    Words like Shrub, McPalin, Idiot, etc are used by people who cannot control their emotions effectively enough to engage in a proper discourse. I try to refer to Obama as Sen. Obama or a respectful addressing, despite my feelings on the guy.

    But I sensed with John he was doing the same game as others in here that say such wacked out stuff like:

    President Bush planned 9/11.
    President Bush planned the stock market crash.
    President Bush planned the attack on Iraq.

    None of those are true. But people want to make them true by saying them over and over in their heads and reading what supports their views.

    I usually don't get that confrontation in person. I just speak my viewpoint and leave it at that. I am not interested in changing your viewpoints, but I am working at improving mine for every day that I live.

    I still am not voting for Sen. Obama. There are some educated men and women who are not selling out gay people and feel that McCain is the right choice and as much as many of you might hate the realization, it is one you must accept and appreciate. Just like I appreciate the different viewpoints which lead people to vote for Sen. Obama. It shows that we are not a country which allows and supports diversity.
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    Oct 29, 2008 1:43 PM GMT
    Zoxuss saidAt any rate, I didn't get a chance to read the post that got him kicked out, but I can say I did pretty much call that someone was going to boot him for difference of opinion.


    It was most certainly not difference of opinion. Look at this thread.

    There is difference of opinion, and then there is uncalled for douchebaggery.

    oh well, at least now the adults can have a civil conversation.
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    Oct 29, 2008 2:15 PM GMT
    cjcscuba1984 saidAfter making a racist comment on another blog, John43620's profile was deleted. I'm sure most of you guys know who I am talkig about.

    However, I am somewhat disappointed...


    You've impressed me as being thoughtful and considerate in previous messages, and so it doesn't surprise me to read such a fair & balanced assessment from you. Thanks for a little counterpoint here.

    In fact, I really wanted to like John myself, if only because he had a lovely smiling photo, at least to my old eyes, which see more that's attractive in the 50-something age group every day. At the same time, his over-the-top and often totally erroneous remarks were always like pouring gasoline onto a fire, and his ones last night really did exceed TOS, or whatever RJ calls their standards here (Terms of Use?).

    SurrealLife mentions John spending "many years" in the military. But the references to it I read by John showed technical errors that suggested he either didn't spend all that much time in uniform, or else he was very ill-informed. I spent 25 years in the Army, and it didn't make me into a right-wing zealot, nor were most of my fellow soldiers.

    Last, you mention the charity of religious conservatives. I lived among such a community, in a small Upper Midwest farming town for a number of years, and the people were indeed lovely. I went to "church suppers" with them, would deliver the lesson from the pulpit, and socialized in every way with them.

    And I know they were aware I was gay, because I was living with my BF, a local guy they all knew as gay, too, one of their own church leaders. But they chose not to say or do anything about it. I was very content living among them.

    On the other hand, I now live near a South Florida mega-church that's been prominent in the anti-gay movement. Their sermons rail against our evil, and propagate every slander about us, from being child molesters to promoting the so-called gay agenda to destroy Christianity and marriage. Those people are much more dangerous to gays than the merely "selfish" views you mention conservatives having.

    I am happy to let bygones-be-bygones as your second message here suggests. But when my well-being and rights are very actively and deliberately threatened, then I will respond as needed. Standing in the road saying "Can't we all get along?" as the Christian fundamentalist steamroller is about to flatten me does not seem like a very promising future.
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    Oct 29, 2008 2:29 PM GMT
    MunchingHusseinZombie said
    Zoxuss saidAt any rate, I didn't get a chance to read the post that got him kicked out, but I can say I did pretty much call that someone was going to boot him for difference of opinion.


    It was most certainly not difference of opinion. Look at this thread.

    There is difference of opinion, and then there is uncalled for douchebaggery.

    oh well, at least now the adults can have a civil conversation.


    I never participated in that forum topic so I did not realize what John had said. As the Republican's poll numbers have gone down, his somewhat extreme views have become more stridently voiced.

    He sent me an e-mail a few weeks ago asking me to comment on a Rush Limbaugh radio broadcast on the credit crisis. I tried to be as objective as possible with Mr. Limbaugh (I mean even he can make some good points), but I must admit it was hard to actively listen through all the ranting. That gave me a clue though about where John got a lot of his opinions from.

    For some reason freedom of speech has been perverted in society by some people to engage in vicious, mean-spirited, ill-informed rants against others they see as not of the same ilk. And this is not always from the right-wing side of the political spectrum either.
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    Oct 29, 2008 3:23 PM GMT
    Red_Hussein_Vespa said
    cjcscuba1984 saidAfter making a racist comment on another blog, John43620's profile was deleted. I'm sure most of you guys know who I am talkig about.

    However, I am somewhat disappointed...


    You've impressed me as being thoughtful and considerate in previous messages, and so it doesn't surprise me to read such a fair & balanced assessment from you. Thanks for a little counterpoint here.


    I am happy to let bygones-be-bygones as your second message here suggests. But when my well-being and rights are very actively and deliberately threatened, then I will respond as needed. Standing in the road saying "Can't we all get along?" as the Christian fundamentalist steamroller is about to flatten me does not seem like a very promising future.


    HA that made me laugh. No, we shouldn't let them steamroll us. We need to respectly and firmly stand up for what we believe in without spewing hate at them... even if they spew it at us. Think about Martin Luther King Jr. and how he presented his arguements. His reposne to hate did more than "playing ball" with what supremesists/racists. We must not demonize those who are trying to take away our rights. Or at least that is what I believe. Hate is a terrible burden to carry around.
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    Oct 29, 2008 3:43 PM GMT



    (no apologies here for being a leftist commie pinko bastard who refuses to show senator mcpalin respect)

    i'm going to take a moment to exercise my freedom of speech (tasteless though it may be, given the recent attitude towards free speech articulated in the "sara palin got hanged in effigy" thread), and i am willing to take whatever heat comes from it (because i'm right, and if you disagree you're wrong): gay republicans are traitors to their own identities. to deny you are oppressed is to aid in your oppression. your gay republican vote is your business to the extent that you have the right to be stupid on purpose if you so choose; however, when your gay republican vote affects my life and my friends i'm going to call you out on the carpet for being destructive to your own community. if you have a problem with that we can discuss it, but it'd be futile, since it'd turn into a circular argument.
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    Oct 29, 2008 4:06 PM GMT
    cjcscuba1984 saidHA that made me laugh. No, we shouldn't let them steamroll us. We need to respectly and firmly stand up for what we believe in without spewing hate at them... even if they spew it at us. Think about Martin Luther King Jr. and how he presented his arguements. His reposne to hate did more than "playing ball" with what supremesists/racists. We must not demonize those who are trying to take away our rights. Or at least that is what I believe. Hate is a terrible burden to carry around.


    You tempt me to say something patronizing like "You're very wise for your years." But I don't know how else to express my admiration for your posts.

    It's said "Youth is wasted on the young." Corollaries to that could also be that wisdom is wasted on the old, who cannot imagine what to do with it, and that imagination is wasted on the young, who have not the wisdom how to apply it.

    I hope you are the fortunate exception to those axioms, who can combine both imagination and wisdom.

    As for MLK Jr, I'm pleased to hear you cite him, and to know what he was about. At the same time, I must note that the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s, when I came of age, is distinct from the gay rights issues of today.

    The Blacks of that time were much more united than we gays are today, and they were supported by many Whites. The gay rights movement is fragmented and badly focused, with little of the political power that Blacks enjoyed over 40 years ago.

    I would contend that different tactics are required for gay rights today, compared to the passive resistance of MLK, which was loosely patterned after that of Gandhi in India. A boycott of an urban bus system as Blacks did, or anything else by gays, is unlikely to produce any results, nor do I think many gays would even participate.

    You are very correct to say we should neither demonize our enemies nor be consumed with hate. The military taught me to establish a clear objective, and to disregard personal agendas and short-term issues. "Keep your eyes on the prize" as has been said of the Black civil rights movement, a concept we gays have yet to learn.
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    Oct 29, 2008 4:33 PM GMT
    dancerhussein said

    (no apologies here for being a leftist commie pinko bastard who refuses to show senator mcpalin respect)

    i'm going to take a moment to exercise my freedom of speech.... gay republicans are traitors to their own identities. to deny you are oppressed is to aid in your oppression. your gay republican vote is your business to the extent that you have the right to be stupid on purpose if you so choose; however, when your gay republican vote affects my life and my friends i'm going to call you out on the carpet for being destructive to your own community. if you have a problem with that we can discuss it, but it'd be futile, since it'd turn into a circular argument.


    I voted already. For president, i voted for Obama. However, for junior Senator, I vote for encumbant, Susan Collins (R). She is featured in an article in HRC's publication: Equality. She has worked on many bi-partisan bills and was part of a group of 7 democracts and republicans who "voted for both sides." She also has been supportive of gay rights.

    Dancer- that's my voting record. Does that make me a "traitor" because i voted for a socially moderate/progressive fiscal-republican? Is my vote affecting ur friends?
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    Oct 29, 2008 4:38 PM GMT
    cjcscuba1984 saidHowever, for junior Senator, I vote for encumbant, Susan Collins (R). She is featured in an article in HRC's publication: Equality. She has worked on many bi-partisan bills and was part of a group of 7 democracts and republicans who "voted for both sides." She also has been supportive of gay rights.

    Dancer- that's my voting record. Does that make me a "traitor" because i voted for a socially moderate/progressive fiscal-republican? Is my vote affecting ur friends?


    But Collins will vote to support a Republican filibuster, to block Democratic initiatives in the Senate, as she has in the past. This is not the old collegial Senate of the past, but a highly polarized bipartisan Senate, where Republicans will vote the party before the people.

    Your political theory is commendable, but it is just theory. Vote for one Republican and you vote for them all.
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    Oct 29, 2008 4:42 PM GMT
    dancerhussein said
    (no apologies here for being a leftist commie pinko bastard who refuses to show senator mcpalin respect)

    i'm going to take a moment to exercise my freedom of speech (tasteless though it may be, given the recent attitude towards free speech articulated in the "sara palin got hanged in effigy" thread), and i am willing to take whatever heat comes from it (because i'm right, and if you disagree you're wrong): gay republicans are traitors to their own identities. to deny you are oppressed is to aid in your oppression. your gay republican vote is your business to the extent that you have the right to be stupid on purpose if you so choose; however, when your gay republican vote affects my life and my friends i'm going to call you out on the carpet for being destructive to your own community. if you have a problem with that we can discuss it, but it'd be futile, since it'd turn into a circular argument.


    Gay Republicans are not traitors and are not destructive to their community. They are community organizers as well. We just have different views on how things should be. That is okay. I have no problem with your viewpoints as long as they are disrespecting anyone.

    But based on this post I have my doubts that you are a open-minded person. You closed your mind it the moment you said ("because I'm right, and if you disagree, you're wrong"). That's the death knell on that argument. You just gave me the power by having to result to an insult.

    I will rewrite your argument:

    dancerhussein: Gay Republicans by voting Republican I feel do damage to the gay community by throwing support towards candidates that are against the rights that gays would want (marriage, benefits, treated as equals). If someone I know that is gay votes Republican I would always challenge them on why they felt they needed to do that since I feel that gay rights trump all other issues in this election.

    See if you had said that then people would take you more seriously and I would respect you for having that difference of opinion.

    dancerhussein, that is all you have to do. Don't let your emotions get the best of you in here.

    icon_smile.gif *hugs*
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Oct 29, 2008 5:01 PM GMT
    CaslonHussein7000 said
    GQjock saidMost people who think like John aren't evil just ill-informed

    "like John" no, there is something more than just ill-informed to be so callous at the murder of a child. And this something is what underlies such people's selfish conservative views. They are all about "me."


    I just back tracked and took a look at what he said

    You're right

    He did deserve to get booted
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    Oct 29, 2008 5:02 PM GMT
    cjcscuba1984 said
    dancerhussein said

    (no apologies here for being a leftist commie pinko bastard who refuses to show senator mcpalin respect)

    i'm going to take a moment to exercise my freedom of speech.... gay republicans are traitors to their own identities. to deny you are oppressed is to aid in your oppression. your gay republican vote is your business to the extent that you have the right to be stupid on purpose if you so choose; however, when your gay republican vote affects my life and my friends i'm going to call you out on the carpet for being destructive to your own community. if you have a problem with that we can discuss it, but it'd be futile, since it'd turn into a circular argument.


    I voted already. For president, i voted for Obama. However, for junior Senator, I vote for encumbant, Susan Collins (R). She is featured in an article in HRC's publication: Equality. She has worked on many bi-partisan bills and was part of a group of 7 democracts and republicans who "voted for both sides." She also has been supportive of gay rights.

    Dancer- that's my voting record. Does that make me a "traitor" because i voted for a socially moderate/progressive fiscal-republican? Is my vote affecting ur friends?



    yep, pretty much - she will be pressured by her party to do that which is in line with her party. or are we going to hear more "maverick" rhetoric (this time from a gay defender of the republican he voted for)? and yes, when your republican then goes on to undermine my friends, your vote has worked against them, me, and you. bravo.
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    Oct 29, 2008 5:06 PM GMT
    Zoxuss said
    dancerhussein said
    (no apologies here for being a leftist commie pinko bastard who refuses to show senator mcpalin respect)

    i'm going to take a moment to exercise my freedom of speech (tasteless though it may be, given the recent attitude towards free speech articulated in the "sara palin got hanged in effigy" thread), and i am willing to take whatever heat comes from it (because i'm right, and if you disagree you're wrong): gay republicans are traitors to their own identities. to deny you are oppressed is to aid in your oppression. your gay republican vote is your business to the extent that you have the right to be stupid on purpose if you so choose; however, when your gay republican vote affects my life and my friends i'm going to call you out on the carpet for being destructive to your own community. if you have a problem with that we can discuss it, but it'd be futile, since it'd turn into a circular argument.


    Gay Republicans are not traitors and are not destructive to their community. They are community organizers as well. We just have different views on how things should be. That is okay. I have no problem with your viewpoints as long as they are disrespecting anyone.

    But based on this post I have my doubts that you are a open-minded person. You closed your mind it the moment you said ("because I'm right, and if you disagree, you're wrong"). That's the death knell on that argument. You just gave me the power by having to result to an insult.

    I will rewrite your argument:

    dancerhussein: Gay Republicans by voting Republican I feel do damage to the gay community by throwing support towards candidates that are against the rights that gays would want (marriage, benefits, treated as equals). If someone I know that is gay votes Republican I would always challenge them on why they felt they needed to do that since I feel that gay rights trump all other issues in this election.

    See if you had said that then people would take you more seriously and I would respect you for having that difference of opinion.

    dancerhussein, that is all you have to do. Don't let your emotions get the best of you in here.



    icon_smile.gif *hugs*




    DO NOT EVER AGAIN TAKE MY WORDS AND DO THAT. EVER. icon_evil.gif i don't care if gay republicans take me seriously or not. i don't need your approval. as i said, "i'm right and you're wrong."

    do not presume to instruct me in how to articulate my thoughts. you will find that i do that very well on my own. you have no idea what my priorities beyond gay rights are. you have said nothing that addresses my concerns about the enivronment and the republicans' abandonment of it, nor human rights which the republican majority treated like a piƱata.

    i know how to be diplomatic, as many of my other postings will prove, and i specifically chose to make my true feelings transparent. you sir, owe me an apology for assuming i'm too stupid to know how to say exactly what i mean, and for diluting the intent of the sentiments that i am free to express in my own words.
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    Oct 29, 2008 5:18 PM GMT
    Good riddance. He gave reasonable intelligent conservatives on this site a bad name, especially since not one of them (I could be wrong about this) ever distanced themselves from his comments that purposefully foisted disinformation and divisiveness.

    As I said on another Forum thread, this guy's weirdness had nothing to do with his conservative stance, but his willingness to outright lie/mischaracterize shamelessly. Any reasonable person would find his comments offensive...and, sad to say, if that was the way he approached life in the "real world" (as opposed to the virtual world of RJ), he probably was not a very nice person.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 29, 2008 5:19 PM GMT
    Re: John42620's inflammatory post and subsequent banning.

    Um, I think Cher sang it best:

    "Words are like weapons/ They wound sometimes"

    *cue guitairs*
  • TallGWMvballe...

    Posts: 1925

    Oct 29, 2008 5:24 PM GMT
    SurrealLife saidIf I remember correctly John was raised in a totalitarian environment. His father was very much "it is my way or the highway" type of parent. He spent many years in the military where you do not question authority and learn to follow orders. So not surprisingly many of his views others would consider reactionary and narrow-minded. George W. Bush is the commander-in-chief so we should not criticize him, despite the President's questionable competency.

    I don't think he was a nasty individual although it did come across that way at times.



    I tossed comments with John on several threads and called him on his lack of reason, logic and ignorance of the facts many times BUT we also exchanged private mail. In that he was a nice person but like SurrealLife said he was so brainwashed from his upbringing he couldn't help it.

    We each said we respected eachother's rights to disagree but he would not listen to reason regarding politics.... his mind was firmly into how he was raised and I am afraid the comments he made came more from disdain for the Democrats than racism alone. Should he have been deleted because of it?

    YES
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    Oct 29, 2008 5:33 PM GMT
    I was pretty much done with him after being compared too a NAZI yesterday,
    I like I could ever pass for one those....LOL!

    But his hateful, and just racist comments regarding the murder of an innocent child actually a baby really. Well that was just too much.
    His comments were just jaw dropping!

    During our exchanges it took everything in me not to scribe a response in the same meanful, hateful tenor that I was being subjected to.

    But I chose not to engage, that would be adding fuel to the fire. Sooner or later he would fall on his sword as he did.

    I am I sorry he gone no. I'm not because his rants were getting to be a bit much and he truly crossed the line and I do not see him as a nice person.

    Lets just say I would not want to walk down an alley with him behind me and I don't scare easy at alll.

    I tried tried to give him the benefit of doubt and I even tried to tell myself, that this man can't believe what he is writing and his facts makes not sense at all.

    I have plenty of friends who are very conservitive and we have had some pretty heated discussions, none of them compared to what I bore witness to regarding John43620.

    RIP!