New level of marriage equality in the Netherlands!

  • Nayro

    Posts: 1825

    Jun 11, 2013 9:58 PM GMT
    Hello all,

    So as many of you may know, the Netherlands was the first country to legalise same sex marriage. I believe it was in 2001. There was one thing though. The officials carrying out the weddings were allowed to refuse to wed same sex couples; for instance if it was against their religion or principles.

    Today a bill was passed that these officials are not allowed to refuse to wed same sex couples anymore! Hurray icon_smile.gif

    THIS is marriage equality!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 11, 2013 10:00 PM GMT
    So does this apply to churches or government officials?
  • Nayro

    Posts: 1825

    Jun 11, 2013 10:33 PM GMT
    I may be wrong, but I think some1 fromt he church can get the power to wed people fromt he government, you need a license. So I guess that means for both
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    Jun 11, 2013 10:34 PM GMT
    Daelin saidI may be wrong, but I think some1 fromt he church can get the power to wed people fromt he government, you need a license. So I guess that means for both


    It must be different over there.

    Even as an atheist I don't know I agree with churches being forced to marry people mostly because that's what the opposition has been saying would happen for years and I don't want to prove them right.
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    Jun 11, 2013 11:19 PM GMT
    In the US church officials can only legally marry when formally delegated by the State for that purpose, and a State marriage license must be issued first. The church official merely certifies the marriage has taken place, which is legally a State civil union. No religious official has any extra-legal power to legitimately marry anyone based on church authority alone.

    If the couple and the church choose to include a religious marriage ceremony as part of the procedure that is their option, but it is not a legal requirement. A priest or minister can legally marry a couple in the sitting room of the rectory, as if it were before a Justice of the Peace, no church service required at all, as far as the State is concerned.

    This is a point conveniently overlooked by the religious Right in the US, that falsely maintains that marriage is their sole domain, for them to exclusively define & administer. The truth is that legal marriage in the US is a State function, and the State defines it, not any church.

    If a church chooses not to marry a couple for any reason that is their business. And US laws do not compel them to do so. Civil officials, however, do not have that latitude, and must issue a marriage license to any couple eligible under State law, and must perform the marriage ceremony. While some officials may claim conducting a same-sex marriage violates their personal religious beliefs, most courts will maintain that their acceptance of a public civil position supersedes such a claim to a personal agenda contrary to the civil laws they were hired (and sometimes sworn) to execute.

    The question in the Netherlands, a situation which seems similar to the US system, may be whether a church official, in accepting state authority to conduct a wedding, must also accept the state's definition of a marriage. The US makes an exception for clergy, who can restrict the ceremony based on their own religious grounds. It would appear the Netherlands no longer do.
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    Jun 12, 2013 10:17 AM GMT
    Looking for the story about this new law online. Is there a link you can provide?
  • MrBurnerd

    Posts: 43

    Jun 12, 2013 10:22 AM GMT
    You have got to love the Dutch ;)
  • drypin

    Posts: 1798

    Jun 12, 2013 10:48 AM GMT
    You could try this one:

    http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/end-same-sex-refuseniks
  • Nayro

    Posts: 1825

    Jun 12, 2013 11:05 AM GMT
    ART_DECO saidIn the US church officials can only legally marry when formally delegated by the State for that purpose, and a State marriage license must be issued first. The church official merely certifies the marriage has taken place, which is legally a State civil union. No religious official has any extra-legal power to legitimately marry anyone based on church authority alone.

    If the couple and the church choose to include a religious marriage ceremony as part of the procedure that is their option, but it is not a legal requirement. A priest or minister can legally marry a couple in the sitting room of the rectory, as if it were before a Justice of the Peace, no church service required at all, as far as the State is concerned.

    This is a point conveniently overlooked by the religious Right in the US, that falsely maintains that marriage is their sole domain, for them to exclusively define & administer. The truth is that legal marriage in the US is a State function, and the State defines it, not any church.

    If a church chooses not to marry a couple for any reason that is their business. And US laws do not compel them to do so. Civil officials, however, do not have that latitude, and must issue a marriage license to any couple eligible under State law, and must perform the marriage ceremony. While some officials may claim conducting a same-sex marriage violates their personal religious beliefs, most courts will maintain that their acceptance of a public civil position supersedes such a claim to a personal agenda contrary to the civil laws they were hired (and sometimes sworn) to execute.

    The question in the Netherlands, a situation which seems similar to the US system, may be whether a church official, in accepting state authority to conduct a wedding, must also accept the state's definition of a marriage. The US makes an exception for clergy, who can restrict the ceremony based on their own religious grounds. It would appear the Netherlands no longer do.


    This! Thanks icon_smile.gif
  • Nayro

    Posts: 1825

    Jun 12, 2013 11:08 AM GMT
    drypin saidYou could try this one:

    http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/end-same-sex-refuseniks


    This is an old article. But it describes what has happened well.
  • hebrewman

    Posts: 1367

    Jun 12, 2013 11:32 AM GMT
    Daelin said
    drypin saidYou could try this one:

    http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/end-same-sex-refuseniks


    This is an old article. But it describes what has happened well.


    and yet again, the US of A is caught behind the curve ball of progress.
  • Nayro

    Posts: 1825

    Jun 12, 2013 11:57 AM GMT
    hebrewman said
    Daelin said
    drypin saidYou could try this one:

    http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/end-same-sex-refuseniks


    This is an old article. But it describes what has happened well.


    and yet again, the US of A is caught behind the curve ball of progress.


    No shame, the NL is one of the most progressive countries of the world in a lot of aspects.
  • hebrewman

    Posts: 1367

    Jun 12, 2013 12:01 PM GMT
    Daelin said
    hebrewman said
    Daelin said
    drypin saidYou could try this one:

    http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/end-same-sex-refuseniks


    This is an old article. But it describes what has happened well.


    and yet again, the US of A is caught behind the curve ball of progress.


    No shame, the NL is one of the most progressive countries of the world in a lot of aspects.


    sigh.....yeah, i know. all too well do i know.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 12, 2013 12:48 PM GMT
    ART_DECO saidIn the US church officials can only legally marry when formally delegated by the State for that purpose, and a State marriage license must be issued first. The church official merely certifies the marriage has taken place, which is legally a State civil union. No religious official has any extra-legal power to legitimately marry anyone based on church authority alone.

    If the couple and the church choose to include a religious marriage ceremony as part of the procedure that is their option, but it is not a legal requirement. A priest or minister can legally marry a couple in the sitting room of the rectory, as if it were before a Justice of the Peace, no church service required at all, as far as the State is concerned.

    This is a point conveniently overlooked by the religious Right in the US, that falsely maintains that marriage is their sole domain, for them to exclusively define & administer. The truth is that legal marriage in the US is a State function, and the State defines it, not any church.

    If a church chooses not to marry a couple for any reason that is their business. And US laws do not compel them to do so. Civil officials, however, do not have that latitude, and must issue a marriage license to any couple eligible under State law, and must perform the marriage ceremony. While some officials may claim conducting a same-sex marriage violates their personal religious beliefs, most courts will maintain that their acceptance of a public civil position supersedes such a claim to a personal agenda contrary to the civil laws they were hired (and sometimes sworn) to execute.

    The question in the Netherlands, a situation which seems similar to the US system, may be whether a church official, in accepting state authority to conduct a wedding, must also accept the state's definition of a marriage. The US makes an exception for clergy, who can restrict the ceremony based on their own religious grounds. It would appear the Netherlands no longer do.


    Marriage in The Netherlands is a civil matter, controlled by the Dutch State (which refers to the national government) and can only be conducted by municipal government officials. Religious weddings are not legally recognised. Many religious people marry 2 times, first 'for the law', second 'for the church'. The bill mentioned by the OP applies to civil marriage only.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 12, 2013 1:06 PM GMT
    BoyWonder said
    Marriage in The Netherlands is a civil matter, controlled by the Dutch State (which refers to the national government) and can only be conducted by municipal government officials. Religious weddings are not legally recognised. Many religious people marry 2 times, first 'for the law', second 'for the church'. The bill mentioned by the OP applies to civil marriage only.

    Americans married in a church are in effect also being married twice, but in the same ceremony. Few realize this.

    They are being legally married for State purposes, as evidenced by the State marriage license that the couple, witnesses and the minister all sign as with any civil marriage. But simultaneously they also have met that church's criteria for a religious wedding ceremony, and some churches will issue their own separate certificate affirming this "Holy Matrimony". And for some like Roman Catholics this is performed as a blessed sacrament.

    And so there is this dual aspect to church weddings in the US. But not to hear the clergy tell it, who want you to believe it's all done under the sole authority of the church and in accordance with (their denomination's interpretation of) God's will, and they alone get to set the rules for marriage. The reality is that US church weddings comply with both State marriage requirements and prohibitions, and with the requirements and procedures of that religious denomination. And to be a legitimate marriage under State law, compliance with the civil mandates takes precedent over the religious.
  • Nayro

    Posts: 1825

    Jun 12, 2013 3:34 PM GMT
    BoyWonder said
    ART_DECO saidIn the US church officials can only legally marry when formally delegated by the State for that purpose, and a State marriage license must be issued first. The church official merely certifies the marriage has taken place, which is legally a State civil union. No religious official has any extra-legal power to legitimately marry anyone based on church authority alone.

    If the couple and the church choose to include a religious marriage ceremony as part of the procedure that is their option, but it is not a legal requirement. A priest or minister can legally marry a couple in the sitting room of the rectory, as if it were before a Justice of the Peace, no church service required at all, as far as the State is concerned.

    This is a point conveniently overlooked by the religious Right in the US, that falsely maintains that marriage is their sole domain, for them to exclusively define & administer. The truth is that legal marriage in the US is a State function, and the State defines it, not any church.

    If a church chooses not to marry a couple for any reason that is their business. And US laws do not compel them to do so. Civil officials, however, do not have that latitude, and must issue a marriage license to any couple eligible under State law, and must perform the marriage ceremony. While some officials may claim conducting a same-sex marriage violates their personal religious beliefs, most courts will maintain that their acceptance of a public civil position supersedes such a claim to a personal agenda contrary to the civil laws they were hired (and sometimes sworn) to execute.

    The question in the Netherlands, a situation which seems similar to the US system, may be whether a church official, in accepting state authority to conduct a wedding, must also accept the state's definition of a marriage. The US makes an exception for clergy, who can restrict the ceremony based on their own religious grounds. It would appear the Netherlands no longer do.


    Marriage in The Netherlands is a civil matter, controlled by the Dutch State (which refers to the national government) and can only be conducted by municipal government officials. Religious weddings are not legally recognised. Many religious people marry 2 times, first 'for the law', second 'for the church'. The bill mentioned by the OP applies to civil marriage only.


    Ok, well then this! icon_smile.gif I really had no idea :/ I don't get married that often icon_razz.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 12, 2013 5:40 PM GMT
    ART_DECO said
    BoyWonder said
    Marriage in The Netherlands is a civil matter, controlled by the Dutch State (which refers to the national government) and can only be conducted by municipal government officials. Religious weddings are not legally recognised. Many religious people marry 2 times, first 'for the law', second 'for the church'. The bill mentioned by the OP applies to civil marriage only.

    Americans married in a church are in effect also being married twice, but in the same ceremony. Few realize this.

    They are being legally married for State purposes, as evidenced by the State marriage license that the couple, witnesses and the minister all sign as with any civil marriage. But simultaneously they also have met that church's criteria for a religious wedding ceremony, and some churches will issue their own separate certificate affirming this "Holy Matrimony". And for some like Roman Catholics this is performed as a blessed sacrament.

    And so there is this dual aspect to church weddings in the US. But not to hear the clergy tell it, who want you to believe it's all done under the sole authority of the church and in accordance with (their denomination's interpretation of) God's will, and they alone get to set the rules for marriage. The reality is that US church weddings comply with both State marriage requirements and prohibitions, and with the requirements and procedures of that religious denomination. And to be a legitimate marriage under State law, compliance with the civil mandates takes precedent over the religious.


    So if I understood this correctly, the minister acknowledges whether the State's and religious criteria for marriage are met. Does this mean that the State delegates this authority in terms of civil marriage to a religious official?