It's only a matter of time on Same-Sex Marriage.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 05, 2008 3:02 PM GMT
    http://i33.tinypic.com/24q759v.jpg

    Just something I found interesting. Keep it up!

    BTW, Indiana was won by the DEMS (first time since.... what, 1950s?) in LARGE part because they got:
    Tippecanoe County (Purdue University), Monroe County (Indiana University), Vigo County (Indiana State University), Delaware County (Ball State University) in Addition to Marion County (Indianapolis), where UIndy, IUPUI, among others are... and the NW Indiana Region (Lake, Porter, LaPorte, etc) where many people commute to Chicago

    They also noted this in Virginia, where Obama won the counties where VT and the Univ. of Virginia were located.

    Just another reason the Obama (see the Daley) Democratic Machine won: They energized young people to vote in mass!
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    Nov 05, 2008 3:07 PM GMT
    Very true. But don't forget the faculty and staff of those campuses, and their families, who also tend to be liberal, regardless of their age. I used to be one of them myself.

    So I think it was both young & old from those college towns, but certainly the response of the young helped make the difference in the Democratic victories.

    But as for your thread topic, no, it's not a matter of time. It will never happen, not in the US. At least not in my lifetime or yours. These state amendments are very hard to undo, and in fact, can't be undone by gay voters, not ever.
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    Nov 05, 2008 4:31 PM GMT
    I believe we will see gay marriage across the US when in the next ten years. Currently MA, CT have gay marriage. NY, NJ, RI, VT are all looking to recognize gay marriages. It will only be a matter of time and court cases.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Nov 05, 2008 4:58 PM GMT
    I agree with the 10 year assessment. Optimistically, I'm predicting a showdown at the US Supreme Court in the next 4 years. Passage of Prop 8 in California last night will force the issue in about 2 years after regaining momentum. This is the beginning of the end of gay marriage bans and conservatives will make it seem like it's Armaggeddon.
  • olden

    Posts: 194

    Nov 05, 2008 5:00 PM GMT
    I am afraid that I agree with Red Vespa. We had our chance with California. If we had defeated Prop 8, it would have been easier for other States to go along with gay marriage. But both California and Florida went anti-gay, and both are considered more liberal than most states. Arizona also imposed a gay marriage ban, but AZ, being a relatively heavy blue-hair state (older voters), could be expected to vote that way anti-gay.

    The California voters will probably never overturn the Amendment, because, to most voters, the effect either way is nil. And since marriage law is held to be a State matter, it will be virtually impossible to get the US Supreme Court to intervene, especially with a rightist court, and consider it a civil rights issue.

    I am so glad that I got involved and sponsored a No on Prop 8 web site. I have never stumped for a Proposition before. Even though we lost, I can now say that I have been more of a citizen than those who just vote.
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    Nov 05, 2008 5:08 PM GMT
    We need to stay optimistic, Red_Vespa, in order for our cause to be recognized. And yeah, dumb as it is maybe, but this is the next issue that is all about hope.

    We all need to do what we can. We can write editorials for papers, knock on our neighbors doors, get to know our acquaintances better and show them who we really are, write to our congresspeople, etc. etc.

    The point is: YES, WE CAN!
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    Nov 05, 2008 5:13 PM GMT
    sfinboston said Currently MA, CT have gay marriage. NY, NJ, RI, VT are all looking to recognize gay marriages. It will only be a matter of time and court cases.


    I agree with this. Prop 8 almost lost in CA. 10 years ago it would have won by 80% or more.

    I also agree that the courts might have something to say about whether this new amendment is legal.
  • Multi

    Posts: 21

    Nov 05, 2008 5:15 PM GMT
    Wow. Giving up so soon are we!?


    Look at the difference just a few years can make. Back in 2000 the vote was a huge difference with 60% vs. 40%, and now this measure only lost by a little over 300,000?! I don't see it being 10 years, I see it as being 10 MONTHS before they overturn it. Times are changing, people are changing, and it will be very soon before gay marriage finds its place among the american people. No offense, but the old farts are going to be leaving soon, and us young people are much more open minded.
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    Nov 05, 2008 5:19 PM GMT
    We can't forget that the age demographic means that the "pro-traditional-marriage" side is going to grow smaller by virtue of passing from this sphere.

    IN NY we have a Dem controlled Senate for the first time in generations: now a dem assembly, senate and Governor - meaning finally some legislation on gay issues will get into the agenda in the senate, and their may be action very soon.

    CA may have passed this issue, but that doesn't mean the court will uphold it - including SCOTUS.
  • Koaa2

    Posts: 1556

    Nov 05, 2008 5:19 PM GMT
    Seems like Equality CA, should regroup, take a cue from Obama campaign, start looking for straight young voters who would support an amendment, and get a cross coalition that could get it passed in a few years.
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    Nov 05, 2008 5:22 PM GMT
    I have to agree with the optimists, and perhaps that's just in my nature. Yes, we did suffer a big blow here in Florida and in California. But it's hard to ignore that younger voters are more in favor of marriage equality... so eventually I believe it will happen as a groundswell from the bottom up. It just may take longer than we hoped.

    At an HRC event here in South Florida earlier this year, the question was raised as to why HRC did not have a big presence in Florida battling Prop 2. The answer the HRC rep gave was that the organization was focusing on protecting marriage equality in California and on electing HRC-endorsed candidates to the state legislature in New York... which, she claimed, may be the first state to bring about marriage equality legislatively. I don't know how the race played out in New York last night... would anyone in the Empire State care to elaborate?




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    Nov 05, 2008 5:24 PM GMT
    I think cowboyo elaborated on the New York legislature while I was typing. His news is encouraging!

    Ever the Optimist here. Keep the fires burning.

  • Garou29

    Posts: 45

    Nov 05, 2008 5:51 PM GMT
    I agree with the optimistics. In fact, I'm possitive about seeing more states with gay marriage in next 10 years.

    Things change really fast nowadays. I mean, sure you think that there are too many states that are very conservative.

    Spain is a catholic country, where Catholic Church was great power. I think divorce was legalized only like 30 years ago, and then too many people were opposed to it. With gay marriage there were lot of people against it just 5 years ago, but in the end nowadays polls shows that most people support gay marriage.

    I'm sure, in ten years or so, most of states, specially the ones with biggest cities, will have legal gay marriage.

    Good luck ;)
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    Nov 05, 2008 6:00 PM GMT
    olden said
    I am so glad that I got involved and sponsored a No on Prop 8 web site. I have never stumped for a Proposition before. Even though we lost, I can now say that I have been more of a citizen than those who just vote.


    It was my website, www.respectgaymarriage.com, that Olden (Rich) was kind enough to sponsor. I want to step up and thank you, Rich, for all the help you gave me. It also showed me that there are people in this world who will actually DO SOMETHING, even for a stranger, over just sitting on their couch and griping. I wish there were more people like you in California; if so, Prop 8 would have failed. If there is anything I can do for you, let me know. Even if it's just to talk, or listen to your troubles. I'm here for you.

    I also want to thank my boyfriend Darryl, who appeared as my training partner in the "You're Not Indiana Jones" spot on the website. It takes a lot of courage to show your face to the opposition, as well as a lot of character and decency to love someone as cantankerous as me, and I'll stand by you, Darryl, for the rest of my life, marriage ban or not.

    I am also angry enough to get violent about this situation, as I have been to Stonewall many times, studied the history of the battles for our rights, and unfortunately, it has never moved forward without extreme measures on our part. Stonewall was the first time in American history when we gained respect, due to the fact the those who would oppress us needed to learn to fear our wrath if they continued the oppression.

    Now they're crowing about their "moral" victory, and I guarantee you, we will see violence against Gays increasing unless we go on the offense, both legally as in lawsuits, and physically, as in fighting anyone who would try to undermine our rights as Americans. Our Founding Fathers knew the only way to defeat the British was with firepower. No amount of legal wrangling would do it; no amount of reason would be heard by our oppressors. That time has come again. There are times when Americans must FIGHT for freedom.

    We are Gay Americans. Now is our time to fight. Our survival depends on it.

    Having said that, I must add...

    Okay, I've had time to think, and I guess violence in the extreme is too extreme. I don't want to hurt anyone, and I don't think anybody else should either. Sorry about my anger. So please ignore my ranting, above. And don't get crazy or stupid. No rioting.

    Pony
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    Nov 05, 2008 6:09 PM GMT
    JackSpartan saidI agree with the optimistics. In fact, I'm possitive about seeing more states with gay marriage in next 10 years.
    Good luck ;)


    You are totally wrong. There won't be universal gay marriage in the US in 100 years, if ever.

    The majority of states have passed constitutional amendments opposing gay marriage. Those are very hard to undo. The numbers just ain't there to make gay marriage happen.
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    Nov 05, 2008 6:11 PM GMT
    "The numbers just ain't there to make gay marriage happen."

    I think that's only on this side of the closet door.
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    Nov 05, 2008 6:13 PM GMT
    McGay said"The numbers just ain't there to make gay marriage happen."

    I think that's only on this side of the closet door.


    I don't care if you have a swinging door; the numbers aren't there. That's been proven in a majority of states. Gays are hated by most Americans, that's a fact.
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    Nov 05, 2008 6:17 PM GMT
    TylerSF saidIf they dont pass a law in CA for gays, I f****** will move from this place to Europe or England or something so I can get marry there !


    They evidently haven't passed a law for gays in CA. My partner & I are in Florida, considering a move to another country. The US doesn't want us, so we'll see who does.
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    Nov 05, 2008 6:24 PM GMT
    I posted this on the other thread, but I'll repeat it here:

    Considering the dirty tricks the YES ON 8 people pulled, and their heavy connections and the Mormons' deep pockets, I seriously think that some form of election fraud is at work here. It IS possible.
    According to an MSNBC poll this morning of approximately 51,000 respondents, only 39% favored a ban on Gay marriage, while over 57% opposed it.

    I smell a rat somewhere.

    Red_Vespa said
    TylerSF saidIf they dont pass a law in CA for gays, I f****** will move from this place to Europe or England or something so I can get marry there !


    They evidently haven't passed a law for gays in CA. My partner & I are in Florida, considering a move to another country. The US doesn't want us, so we'll see who does.


    Red, please don't move. That just means they win. STAY. FIGHT!!! We need all the people we can to FIGHT for American freedom, not leave and abandon us to these bigots. I'm fully prepared to fight dirty if need be, in order to push these bigoted bastards out of my home state. That's what our Founding Fathers put their lives on the line for, as well as our soldiers to this day: FREEDOM. Sometimes we must fight, hand-to-hand, and even spill blood, like at Stonewall, in order to gain the respect we deserve. If we can't get respect at the point of a pen, then by God we deserve to force it at the barrel of a gun or the blade of a sword.

    Those who have fought and died for our rights deserve no less. And neither do we.

    Having said that, I've had time to think, and I guess violence in the extreme is too extreme. I don't want to hurt anyone, and I don't think anybody else should either. Sorry about my anger. So please ignore my ranting, above. And don't get crazy or stupid. No rioting. But that doesn't mean we should lay down under the bus either.

    Pony
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 05, 2008 7:47 PM GMT
    "Gays are hated by most Americans, that's a fact."

    That's subject to debate.

    Depending on the question asked, there is growing support, sometimes a majority.

    A Time magazine poll in August:

    Do you favor or oppose an amendment to the U.S. Constitution that would ban same-sex couples from getting married? All respondents =========== Favor 35% Oppose 58% No answer/don't know 7%

    (source, technorati http://technorati.com/posts/RmBOTWSfZdPU6Ck3lSf5xxKrabF3TOpTXRd8g%2Fu%2BvX0%3D)

    Surely some of those responding may be anti- gay marriage and also anti- ammendment, but it's still a pretty simple question and a pretty clear number.

    But even if a majority don't support equal marriage rights, a majority have come over to the side of equal employment, housing etc

    A Gallup poll of almost 3 years ago shows 51% of "American teenagers" were in favor of gay marriage. That's marriage.

    Two years ago a U of Wisconsin poll found over 60% of all Wisconsinites in favor of domestic partnership for gay couples.

    don't be so despairing. It's a learning curve.

    I have no doubt, by the way, that in the 60s fewer than half the public supported the civil rights movement. Laws were changed anyway, and greater support followed.
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    Nov 05, 2008 7:56 PM GMT

    this just proves that we in this modern world aren't ready to be open-minded and liberal ... and proves that religioun still invading peoples minds although it's the oldest and the most premitive ..

    But I know .. gay people will not shut up and sit quietly .. we'll fight .. just to prove that we still live in a world of acceptance and equality .. almost..
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    Nov 05, 2008 8:18 PM GMT
    The USA is an exception among the Western democracies in terms of the role that organized religion plays, especially the conservative variety.

    As long as there are pastors and priests saying that homosexuality is a choice and that allowing gays to marry "promotes homosexuality" or "recruits more homosexuals" or some such nonsense, then it will be very difficult to legalize same-sex marriage across the USA.

    I know that is a less than rosy-view, but I never was one to ignore unpleasant realities.
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    Nov 05, 2008 8:39 PM GMT
    zeebyaboi saidAccording to an MSNBC poll this morning of approximately 51,000 respondents, only 39% favored a ban on Gay marriage, while over 57% opposed it.

    I smell a rat somewhere.


    That's wishful thinking. We lost, and that's the end of it. The polls showed that gays were losing. All the lawsuits in the world will change nothing. The time for action was before the vote, not after.

    Gays are hated by straights. Therefore I hate straights. This is simple logic.

    I will continue to oppose and confound straights in every way I can, as I have for years. They seek to destroy me, so I seek to destroy them.

    This is reasonable and fair. If more of us would follow this policy, we might earn more respect and attention, instead of being everyone's punching bag.
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    Nov 05, 2008 9:09 PM GMT
    Red, c'mon, you're better than to think that all straights hate Gays. I know you're pissed right now, but direct that anger at those who deserve it. I know a whole helluva lot of straights who voted NO on Prop 8. They don't deserve to be demonized by us any more than we deserve to be demonized by the majority of Mormons who backed Prop 8.

    Ever think that this is just the kind of thing our enemies want? Us fighting amongst ourselves while they sneak around behind our backs causing more civil rights abuses?

    I'll quote Dan Ackroyd in 1941: "If there's one thing I hate to see, it's Americans fighting Americans!"
    The Mormons, and the Catholics, and the Fundamentalists who voted for these devisive measures have proven that THEY are NOT Americans, but are simply totalitarian theocrats bent on world domination.

    THOSE are the ones we should be fighting.
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    Nov 05, 2008 9:28 PM GMT
    Not all of the votes against the amendment came from gays. There's simply not that many of us. A lot of straight people voted in our favor.