Please stop the Mormon bashing.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 07, 2008 4:31 PM GMT
    This won't make me any friends on here, but oh well.

    Enough with the damn Mormon bashing. This isn't some hate pissing match.

    Yes, they represented a disproportionate amount of the money behind Prop 8. They're organized. They have their shit together. Get over it. This shouldn't be about the victory of Yes on Prop 8, etc. This should be about the failure of the gay community to connect with voters. 52% of the California population isn't LDS, after all.

    We failed.

    Maybe...JUST MAYBE...voters didn't support gay marriage because they don't know us, aren't comfortable with us, and don't have a handle on what gay marriage really looks like. Maybe this is the culmination of our failure to connect with those around us. Maybe we're a little too insular, a little too condescending towards those boring straight people, a little too quick to attack them after we perceive them to be attacking us.

    Yes, I think the Mormon church is ridiculous, but no more so than any other religion. But I have found most LDS folks to be very kind, very accepting, and to have a strong sense of family that we could well use as an example. It is WRONG and HATEFUL to blanket demonize all of these people. It would be more productive to befriend them, seek to understand their positions, and find similarities. Interracial couples were shown to be not markedly different from same-race couples; we need to demonstrate the same thing.

    Also, I find it ironic and obnoxious how many gay guys who were until recently uninterested in monogamy or commitment (see previous topics) are suddenly aggressively pushing for gay marriage. Fucking lead by example, gays! Demonstrate that you can play house, that you can stay in a relationship for more than 13 months, that you actually understand what heterosexual married couples have to go through on a daily basis to keep their marriage strong.

    Show straight couples some respect and there's a greater chance that they will return the favor.
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    Nov 07, 2008 4:41 PM GMT
    Yeah .. I guess we deserve our discrimination. We have been vilified and persecuted for centuries. If we are just nice and don't talk about it, it will stop. Heck, whats a few more beatings, it will toughen us up.
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    Nov 07, 2008 4:46 PM GMT
    Let Rome in Tiber melt, and the wide arch
    Of the rang'd empire fall! Here is my space.
    Kingdoms are clay: our dungy earth alike
    Feeds beast as man: the nobleness of life
    Is to do thus: [[embrace]]
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 07, 2008 4:50 PM GMT
    There is not a snowball's chance in hell that I will stop mormon bashing. They started this in 98 when they went all anti-gay in Hawaii. Fuck them and the polygamist horse they rode in on. They can go suck pig dick.

    mchurch.jpg
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    Nov 07, 2008 5:09 PM GMT
    They should not have tax exempt status if they plan on lobbying on state or federal level. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. Their argument comes from a religious point of view.

    I am a former LDS member and agree with you that they are good people. Some of the nicest I have ever met. ( to your face anyways) But this lack of separation of church and state has gone to far. So hopefully people can be respectful of the members but realize no action is just as bad supporting the taking away of rights from two loving people.

    Sign this petition.

    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/review-the-501c3-status-of-the-church-of-latter-day-saints-the-mormons

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    Nov 07, 2008 5:47 PM GMT
    Some people fail to see the difference between the Mormon Church and a Mormon individual. Yet, it is easy for the same people to differentiate the Catholic Church and the Catholic individual.

    I get it, Prop 8 sucked. We should be busy building alliances in the Latino and Black communities rather than spewing bile.
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    Nov 07, 2008 5:53 PM GMT
    The bile bought and paid for by the mormons is what won their campaign. If the no on prop 8 campaign had made it about the mormons, exposing them for the kind of people they are (at least the perpetrators of this travesty), their beliefs and how they are not in harmony with other christian beliefs, using the same techniques that the mormons used in their ads, there might be justice on this today. They've been doing this far too long, as we try to remain 'nice'.
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    Nov 07, 2008 6:00 PM GMT


    We just said on another topic,

    Love the sinner (the parishioner) and hate the sin (the organization). heh hey- it works for them (supposedly)

    We find it primitive that money is what determines such things down there, such as human rights. You guys have a lot of work ahead, and we're writing a letter to President Obama.
    We'll send it registered.

    It could very well land on his desk, seeing as it has oddball Canadian post markings on it. Do you think?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 07, 2008 6:52 PM GMT
    Hey, know what? The LDS church supports rights for gay couples such as hospital visitation, medical care, and non-discrimination in employment.

    Maybe, instead of attacking them, we should say, "Hey Mormons! We agree on a few things here, even if we don't agree on everything. Why don't you show everyone that you do support human rights by helping us put some basic rights into motion?"

    Cause, you know what? My life would be way easier right now if I could easily put my partner on my health insurance plan.

    But, no, you're right; it's way more fun to tell them to fuck off. Because incremental progress is just too damn boring.
  • Thirdbeach

    Posts: 1364

    Nov 07, 2008 6:58 PM GMT
    Guys: the Mormons and other groups like them are just acting out of fear.

    These groups are afraid of losing influence, and relevance in the society.
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    Nov 07, 2008 7:02 PM GMT
    hobronto said
    Maybe, instead of attacking them, we should say, "Hey Mormons! We agree on a few things here, even if we don't agree on everything. Why don't you show everyone that you do support human rights by helping us put some basic rights into motion?"

    Hey, that would have been lovely....except they decided to go a few steps beyond agreeing to disagree and strip away rights we had already been given. They treated us like the enemy, and that takes things to a whole 'nother level.

    At the risk of sounding petulant, they started it. And karma, she be a nasty bitch.
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    Nov 07, 2008 7:02 PM GMT
    hobronto saidHey, know what? The LDS church supports rights for gay couples such as hospital visitation, medical care, and non-discrimination in employment.

    Maybe, instead of attacking them, we should say, "Hey Mormons! We agree on a few things here, even if we don't agree on everything. Why don't you show everyone that you do support human rights by helping us put some basic rights into motion?"

    Cause, you know what? My life would be way easier right now if I could easily put my partner on my health insurance plan.

    But, no, you're right; it's way more fun to tell them to fuck off. Because incremental progress is just too damn boring.


    Where is it documented that support for such rights are officially sanctioned by the LDS church? I have no doubt that the vast majority of Mormons are good, honest, decent folk. However, even if we become friends and allies with Mormons, I sincerely doubt that we'll ever convince them, corporately, that marriage equality is a fundamental right. I also believe that the church overstepped the bounds of church/state separation when it actively engaged in promoting and funding legislation to modify a state's constitution. As I said in another thread, they could have formed a PAC to do the same, which would have been open to like-minded folks from various religious or political groups.

    In the end, I'm sure that Mormons believe that they did the 'right thing', just as many of us believe that protesting their actions and seeking to overturn Prop 8 is the 'right thing'. Who's right, and who's wrong? Or, is there even a 'right' or a 'wrong'?

    In the end, if we don't fight for our rights, who will?



  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 07, 2008 8:22 PM GMT
    I grew up LDS. I understand how they think. I even was a missionary. I don't have a problem with the rank and file LDS membership. My problem is with Mormon leadership and they vast sums of money that were raised to flood the airwaves here in California that contained outright lies -- and the people talking in the commercials were LDS.

    The very first Yes on 8 ad had a Mormon law professor talking about the big list of horribles that would happen if gay marriage were passed: churches would lose their tax exempt status, people would be sued for their individual beliefs, and my personal favorite, churches would be sued for refusing to marry gay couples. All of these are completely false. Take a church being sued for refusing to marry a gay couple. A church has the 1st Amendment right to freedom of religion. The Catholic church has always refused to marry couples who have previously been divorced. They've never been sued for that. To say that it would happen, is an outright lie or the remarks of someone who is completely unqualified to discuss constitutional law.

    One of the other ads featured a Mormon couple from Mass. who had sued because their child in a Massachusetts public school was taught that gays can marry there. California public schools are not required to teach about marriage at all. And any lesson plan about sex education, family, etc. has an opt-out provision. Parents in CA have the absolute right to control what their children hear about sexuality in CA public schools. The gist of the ad was that all children would have to learn about gay marriage in schools which is completely false.

    The ads about children were what swayed public opinion. No on 8 led in every poll by a substantial margin until then. The ads were aired constantly and unfortunately, if you tell the electorate something often enough even if it's false, they will believe it.

    That's my problem with what the Mormon Church did. They told their members to donate heavily to finance commercials that lied and put the status of 18,000 legal marriages in CA in jeopardy and stripped a future right away from countless others.

    If the Mormons want to involve themselves in politics that's fine, but they provided the majority of the money that paid for the lies that ultimately changed the outcome of the vote. And I think that is worthy of protest.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Nov 07, 2008 8:33 PM GMT
    The problem isn't JUST the Mormon Church
    The problem that we're facing is more complex than that
    We're the new black when it comes to hate
    Gays are the cause to get behind if you're a Conservative an/or a bigot and you're pissed at the world
    Because we're the only game left in Town
    These people who voted for this ballot measure knew what they were doing
    They knew that gay men and women are and will never be any real threat to them
    They knew that they had to rally around lies to support it
    But will they come out and say they supported it? Hell No they won't because they Know what a heinous piece of crap they voted for
    That's why it's time to expose all of them
    From the ones who paid money for the cause
    to every one who went into that voting booth and pulled that metaphorical lever
    Time to turn on the kitchen light and let the cockroaches run for cover
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 07, 2008 8:34 PM GMT
    Mormon bashing is wrong, but their gay bashing is OK?

    Sure glad you weren't at Stonewall in 1969, where you would have been pleading: "Please stop the police bashing. This should be about the failure of the gay community to connect with the police. Maybe we're a little too quick to attack them after we perceive them to be attacking us."

    I don't suppose you're a big fan of S&M, are you? "Please master, punish your disobedient slave again."
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    Nov 07, 2008 8:42 PM GMT
    This whole thing has gone a little too far, in my opinion.

    Everyone wants someone to blame.

    The Mormons, the Blacks, the Latinos, the Gays (for being complacent)....

    Its understandable that everyone is angry, but its probably healthier to DO something about it rather than to just sit around and whine all day about how horrible the Mormon church is, and how awful religions are.

    Someone here mentioned that we need to lead by example. Its very true. How many of the queens in here spend most of their weekends in gay bars, getting wasted and looking for their next hookup? How many guys here seem to justify having open relationships because.... somehow monogamy doesnt work for them?

    The church was definitely wrong to push its members to donate to pro-8 causes. Ok, we get it. But the Mormons were not the only ones.

    The point is.... do something. Write to your congressmen, senators, governors.... Donate money to organizations that fight proposition 8.

    I know I'll get made fun of for this... by my favorite quote ever actually comes from a famous Nun. Mother Theresa.... and she said, "If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other."

    This goes in all directions.
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    Nov 07, 2008 8:57 PM GMT
    Man, if I never before believed that gays are indoctrinated to believe in their own guilt and failings, and deserve to be punished, I do now.

    "At least I'm the nice guy, even if I'm getting the crap beat out of me." [WHAM!] "I'll just lay here on the ground until they get tired of kicking me. I know it must be my own fault if they hate me."

    It's amazing these Sunday-school platitudes are being voiced by gays, when it's the religious fanatics who are beating us over the head with their Bibles. I guess we just live to be abused and exploited.
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    Nov 07, 2008 8:59 PM GMT
    We should look to other countries especially Europe as examples...the word "marriage" brings out the worst in everybody these days...for and against.

    Let's consider fighting for equal rights under a "civil union" banner and let the religious groups/churches and individuals have their "marriage." I really believe Prop 8 would have passed if the word "marriage" wasn't used. And I know in this country civil unions don't have the rights of marriages.

    I think that is what the gay community needs to focus on.
    In Germany, Church/religious marriages aren't recognized by the state.
    Only civil unions are. If we are truly a secular country (We aren't btw!) then we need to follow that example or a similar one.

    Then everyone can be happy! Including me - the MUSLIM..and yes I wanted to get married, but prefer to deal with a more "contractual" ceremony rather then a rice and doves ceremony with a stranger in robes saying things that have little to do with present day life. To me a civil union ceremony/rights would allow equality for gays...and then we can head to the closest rainbow church to have the "religious/spiritual" ceremony...

    I just feel everytime we say Marriage I picture a church...and then I picture alot of shotguns and me doing Carl Lewis!

    Anyone agree?
    ...oh and btw...mormons ARE HOT! everytime i see those boys in their crisp white shirts and black ties riding/walking around. I feel a guilty pleasure rising up ...hehehehe (yeah I said it!)
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    Nov 07, 2008 9:06 PM GMT
    Vespa,

    There is a difference between making ugly, hate-inciting remarks towards others, and protesting in a logical, non-abrasive way.

    You apparently forget that we live in a PC world these days. You dont want to look like an asshole, because even if you arent, everyone will think that you are.... and sadly, in the world of public opinion, its the 'image' that counts. So if gays start to look all militant and psycho- we are certainly not going to garner much support from the population-at-large.

    Part of my opinion on not hating on others the way we have been hated on, is not to stoop to their level so much so that we become hypocritical.

    Just because one group does something that is negative and wrong, doesn't mean we should do the same thing back.
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    Nov 07, 2008 9:10 PM GMT
    sorry, but i agree with McGay - not a chance in hell that I will stop until that church is taken down. Mormons individually may be nice - but the organization is destructive - and they acted against the law by funding a political initiative.

    As the old saying goes - live with the consequences. I will fight to the last and get their tax-exempt status revoked. and if I find out that any other church or non-profit org is taking away basic civil rights - I'll fight against them as well.
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    Nov 07, 2008 9:15 PM GMT
    hobronto saidAlso, I find it ironic and obnoxious how many gay guys who were until recently uninterested in monogamy or commitment (see previous topics) are suddenly aggressively pushing for gay marriage.


    I don't think this is relevant. I have never been in a long-term relationship, but I still find it deeply hurtful and offensive to be told that I don't deserve the same rights as everyone else, whether or not I choose to exercise them. I also care about the thousands of gay and lesbian couples who are in long-term, committed relationships. I think it's great that the gay community has mobilized around this issue, including those members of our community who may not choose monogamy or commitment for themselves.
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    Nov 07, 2008 9:15 PM GMT
    hobronto saidHey, know what? The LDS church supports rights for gay couples such as hospital visitation, medical care, and non-discrimination in employment.

    Maybe, instead of attacking them, we should say, "Hey Mormons! We agree on a few things here, even if we don't agree on everything. Why don't you show everyone that you do support human rights by helping us put some basic rights into motion?"

    Cause, you know what? My life would be way easier right now if I could easily put my partner on my health insurance plan.

    But, no, you're right; it's way more fun to tell them to fuck off. Because incremental progress is just too damn boring.


    I hate to tell you this, stud, but the LDS Church isn't just a bunch of pushovers. They have deliberately, with great organization and strategy, done evil to us, and they deserve to suffer for it. Also, you can't ignore the fact that they supplied the vast majority of funding to propagate these lies.

    NOT ALL Mormons. I have lots of Mormon friends, I don't hate Mormons. But their church and their organization is going down, period. I agree-- my Mormon friends are some of the best, most moral, family-oriented people I know. But the LDS church and its entire hiearchy deserves to burn.

    ...and burn they shall.
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    Nov 07, 2008 9:16 PM GMT
    growingmusc saidsorry, but i agree with McGay - not a chance in hell that I will stop until that church is taken down. Mormons individually may be nice - but the organization is destructive - and they acted against the law by funding a political initiative.


    I agree with this. As an institution, the Mormon Church has made an extremely predatory statement with respect to gay rights. The Catholic Church has done so as well, but at least the Catholic Church did that by having one of its hyper conservative lay groups, the Knights of Columbus, front the effort, as opposed to the office of the Papacy. I think that sucks too....but the Mormon Church has really gone over the top on this one, and deserves villification.

    That doesn't mean that all Mormons are jerks. But the institution has clearly acted in a manner that deserves condemnation.
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    Nov 07, 2008 9:19 PM GMT
    Of course, it's always important to understand all sides of a given controversy. Demonizing Mormons isn't the right tack to take, but holding them accountable for their actions is absolutely appropriate.

    For a different perspective on Mormonism, read this recent article in the Houston Press about the raid of Yearning for Zion Ranch in Eldorado, TX. The article is written by a "mainstream" Mormon who, up until that point, didn't know very much about the church's polygamist past. It's a good read, even if you don't necessarily agree with the author's conclusions.

    http://www.houstonpress.com/2008-10-30/news/a-mainstream-mormon-s-test-of-faith/

  • patagonia

    Posts: 3

    Nov 07, 2008 9:20 PM GMT
    Thanks hobronto & ZbmwM5!!!

    This madness needs to stop...I was at the Protest yesterday at the Mormon Temple and was horrified by some of our acts...like screaming "Nazi" at the Mormons. Assuming Mormonism means Polygamy and many other ignorant statements.

    As the good brother Ghandi says: "YOU must be the CHANGE you wish to see in the World." As a gay community we did fail. I come across many complacent, apathetic gays who really don't give a shit. In some regards I'm glad the vote ended as it did as we are being forced to wake up to our second class status. We do need separation of Church & State and the Mormon Leaders did cross the line, but treating them the same way we are treated does not resolve the issue. I am offended by the Mormon stance that I am immoral for being who I am, but I will not reduce my battle to name calling & ignorance. We need to collectively get smart and transform the World in a powerful way, and that is only going to happen if we clean up our acts. We have lost to many brothers & sisters to suicide, drugs & disease...I'm personally sick of it & I have no one to blame but myself. We need to understand our "enemies" and how they think...many of us need to remember how difficult it was for us to acknowledge that we were gay...I personally didn't come out until I was 28 and still struggle with my own internal homophobia. Acceptance, patience & Love will prevail. We can still fight our fight strong without being vicious about it!