Lessons learned from failures of NoOn8?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 08, 2008 12:55 AM GMT
    What did we learn after we failed?

    People hate you to your face and being politically correct and "soft" ads without being personal and without the faces of lesbians and gays IS a losing strategy.

    Here's a quote from the Daily Dish:
    The Daily Dish by Andrew SullivanI worked for both the No on 8 campaign and the Obama campaign this year and cannot tell you how far apart those two were in style and substance. One was top down, the other bottom up. Ironically, it was the presidential campaign that was the grassroots model, not the state-level proposition campaign. As soon as I started working for the No on 8 campaign I was amazed at the level of scripting: "don't say 'civil rights,' don't say 'constitution,' don't say 'gay.'" I couldn't believe it.


    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/11/no-on-8-dont-sa.html

    I have yet to see any emails from NoOn8 discussing OUR mistakes. Until we know what we did poorly, what didn't work, how are we going be better prepared in our next fight?

    YesOn8 was running on lies and deceits but how did we confront them? Some ad saying "that's a lie" didn't fly. Some dude saying "We don't teach marriage in school" and yet his website said otherwise didn't fly.

    What other mistakes did we make?

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    Nov 08, 2008 1:16 AM GMT
    Thanks for making this thread Magus.

    Once the heat cools down, I'm not sure the division between gay blacks, liberal religious homosexuals, and the larger gay community will ever be repaired but I think it'll be a good thing to find out where all the millions of dollars built to defeat this bill went to.
  • EricLA

    Posts: 3461

    Nov 08, 2008 3:54 AM GMT
    Yes, thanks Magus.

    I think the most important lesson is that we need to move forward. Yes, it looks like African-American and Latino voters made the difference here. But, by all appearances the No On 8 campaign made a conscious choice not to interface with those communities to try to educate them about the implications on 8's passing. Also, the early ads merely responded to the Yes on 8 ads, letting them set the agenda rather than setting our own, and furthermore it looks they were afraid of the possible linkages of "gay" and "children," decided to avoid them rather than tackling them head on.

    It was heartening to see the 3000 who marched on the Mormon Temple here in LA yesterday. But I have to wonder if these people were as active getting the word out in the weeks prior to the election.

    We have it pretty lucky here in Los Angeles, and New York City and other places, generally big cities, that it's easy to become complacent. Here in California, we've been on a roll when it comes to lgbt rights, and some rights, like the initial supreme court ruling granting us same-sex marriage five months ago, almost seem to have dropped in our lap with little appearance of the work behind the scenes to make them happen. We've taken some of these rights for granted and now this loss, which will be difficult to reverse, reminds us our work is not done.

    I hope this reenergizes and refocuses us on the work still left to be done.
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    Nov 08, 2008 4:00 AM GMT
    The sad thing is we weren't outspent. We had $38.4 millions vs $36.1 millions. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-moneymap,0,2198220.htmlstory

    We were outsmarted!
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    Nov 08, 2008 4:09 AM GMT
    magus_iii saidThe sad thing is we weren't outspent. We had $38.4 millions vs $36.1 millions. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-moneymap,0,2198220.htmlstory

    We were outsmarted!

    Yea we were! In many ways. This is just another way to point your finger. And after 3 days of being angry and venting I am starting to calm down and relize That is all we have been doing including myself is putting the blame on some one else. I just know better for next time to be louder and prouder. And fight for what is right everyday.
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    Nov 11, 2008 5:55 AM GMT
    Lessons learned?

    That gays need to be more proactive. That it is not enough to go out once a year in our skimpiest outfits and parade around and dance around, I am proud of being gay but I am not sure that gay pride parades do us any favors. We need to do more than just get together once a year and party and drink ourselves to oblivion. I'm all for partying and being gay (pun intended) but in order to gain our rights we need MORE. I may be crucified for saying that but it is my personal opinion.

    The blacks, mormons and religious extremists are not our main problem. I think that our main problem is that we are divided in general, we are constantly at each other's throats and trying to outbitch the biggest bitch. We are catty with each other, there are guys who think they are so hot that they pretty much dismiss anyone who they don't consider to be "worthy" of them.

    We need to UNITE, put our differences, our cattiness, bitchiness aside and create a strong front. We need to have once voice and tell the world that we are not "sinners" or "evil" or "aberrations" and that we are going to fight for our rights.

    The Pro H8r's strength went beyond money. They united and fought together and we need to take a cue from there and unite. Let's not forget what happened, let this be the first step into the gay rights movement.
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    Nov 11, 2008 6:15 AM GMT
    I wish the Macy's Day Parade would cease & desist. It makes me furious to know people are happy, waving in the streets & celebrating with drum majorettes and scripted banter. What right do they have to put on that kind of public display? And don't get me started on Mardi Gras.
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    Nov 11, 2008 6:24 AM GMT
    eyland saidI wish the Macy's Day Parade would cease & desist. It makes me furious to know people are happy, waving in the streets & celebrating with drum majorettes and scripted banter. What right do they have to put on that kind of public display? And don't get me started on Mardi Gras.


    I'm already getting crucified (which makes my point about the bitchiness and sarcasm in our community) so I'll make my point clearer..The gay community needs to do more than just gay pride..the demonstrations post-8 have been a great start.
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    Nov 11, 2008 6:30 AM GMT


    Crucified? Are we guessing right, that people are mad at you because of this whole 'black vote' thing?
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    Nov 11, 2008 6:37 AM GMT
    meninlove said

    Crucified? Are we guessing right, that people are mad at you because of this whole 'black vote' thing?


    Oh no, I was referring to my comment about Pride and the eyeland's sarcastic response. Nothing like sarcasm to get your point across.
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    Nov 11, 2008 6:57 AM GMT


    We're a bit slow.... it's the Canadian air - too much oxygen.
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    Nov 11, 2008 7:25 AM GMT
    yep. we need to to find our commonality. Face it. We are all just fags to the people who are against us no matter what we see ourselves as.

    I also thought our TV ads were pretty pathetic and lacked punch. I think we needed a variety of hard hitting ads that make people question what they are told, and evoke sympathy as well as outrage. I wanted to see stuff that said "look, here is what gay hatred/discrimination does" this prop is about the hatred/disgust towards gays. I saw nothing like Matthew Sheppard or Lawrence king. That's what I think.

    And I am getting tired of hearing that somehow we deserved to lose or that we have to beg for our rights like dogs. If you have to beg for a right it isn't a right .. i.e. inalienable rights .. a right is something that you don't have to earn. Queers seem to have a problem with dignity as it is which is why we seen to have so many esteem issues and gay youth are so likely to kill themselves or live a life of fear in the closet!

  • EricLA

    Posts: 3461

    Nov 11, 2008 7:32 AM GMT
    Now that more info has come out, the good news is that we WILL win this battle. They only won with 52.3%. Not a gigantic margin.

    If the No on 8 campaign had outreached more to the African-American and Latino communities, maybe they could have gotten some movement going. Also, the initial No on 8 ads didn't tackle the issue directly, allowing the Yes side dictate things. No on 8 was left to respond to the Yes ads, which automatically put them at a disadvantage and then those early ads weren't very good. It would also have been helpful in Obama and Schwarzenegger had come out against the proposition sooner.
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    Nov 11, 2008 10:00 AM GMT
    For starters, homosexuals have to come out of the closet. While some of them are and will still be surrounded by hateful family members and an unsupportive immediate community, it is easier to come out now than it has ever been and almost everyone has access to support in person or online. Also, once homosexuals stop thinking that there is something wrong with them and homosexuality itself, equality will advance. There are many RJ members who are in the closet, and there are also some homosexual, gay-unaccepting RJ members, so imagine the exponent of those numbers in the real world. They have to come out so that heterosexuals cannot say they don't know any homosexuals.

    Secondly, we must keep pushing. I completely disagree with others, particularly homocons and Republicans who say we have to quiet down and beg. That's wrong. However, we do have to plan and prepare and choose our battles and we have to take incremental steps. In the new administration, we need to lobby for the repeal of DADT first (as the public is ahead of Congress on this). Then we need federal changes to anti-discrimination laws, and then the repeal of DOMA.

    There is the extremely strong approach, which I personally favor and by strong I mean having a newly-elected Congress and President immediately do all three things (repeal DADT, repeal DOMA, and add sexual orientation in federal anti-discrimination laws) and give people time to get over it, but the politicians are too weak to do this and politics IS the art of compromise so our gains have to be incremental instead. However, it would be a mistake to sit back and do nothing for 4 years because we won't get anywhere if we do that.

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    Nov 11, 2008 11:17 AM GMT
    dfrw. Some may think I hate gays. But............ not so. I just refuse to be shoved under the banner of GLBT. I am a pure homosexual 100%! I am out, and open about having two long term relationships. I started to suck cock at the age of five. I made no secret of that either. So I have been out for over 40 years now! Even though a child of 5 should not know of such things. Now where would I of learned such acts? Was not from family.

    A few weeks ago. I was at work, and being light hearted about having two husbands. Some peoples jews was to hit the ground, as they did not know I even had one.

    But One African women asked me do they know of each other?

    When I said oh yes they do! Her face just lite up, and she told me I have made her day, and she always enjoys being around me, as I'm so much fun. I don't believe on wearing my sexuality on my sleeve at work, just as I don't think people should wear their religion on their sleeve at work either.

    I just don't feel the label gay, represents me. The parades don't! I gave my gay card back in the mid 80s, after working for the gay community though it's darkest years, and I stood by it and did not flee, and hid as so many others did. I got treated as I had AIDES, because I worked for the gay community, so I must of. During this time. I also helped to decriminalise homosexuality. Before this you could be kicked out of the police force, the military, for being a homosexual, because homosexuality come under the mental health act too, and you could not be a cop, and have a mental illness.

    I did my bit, then stepped aside. I went out and lived and worked in the real world. But non of this means I hate gays. I just don't stand under the banner of gay, or GLBT.....

    Oh in the past recent years I sang with a gay chorus. As I may of been wrong. I found this group of people mean, nasty, hatful people. Oh and the fact I can sing, and have a good sound too, just made me a target. Also a few guys wanted to get off with me, but I was one of the few there, not looking for sex. So the fact I was not putting out made me a target for hate too, just because I was not putting out. I know now I did not do the wrong thing by giving back my gay membership.

    Oh I've truly enjoyed this forum.
  • sandiegovince

    Posts: 111

    Nov 11, 2008 11:48 AM GMT
    What did we learn after we failed?

    Alright, here's my take. I think what I learned is, we basically did not understand how Prop.8 would affect us in a broader sense---until it was too late. Many gay men view the word marriage with indifference--because, face the fact, a lot of us aren't going to or wish to take that trip down the aisle. We didn't see it as Equality issue until just a few weeks prior to the election, and by then it was too late to turn the tide. Let's take Prop. 4 for example. That proposition was successfully defeated because the opponents attacked it right from the beginning as a proposition not about a minor's right to have an abortion but about eliminating a women's right to choose. Had we taken a similar approach we would have been more successful--it's not about marriage its about EQUALITY!

    I also agree with digital ghost, we need to be more unified as a community. The success of the civil rights movement was largely due to the fact that most everyone shared more than the common denominator of being a disenfranchised minority. They all came from different backgrounds and walks of life but were able to be unified and organized toward a single goal. Aside from being gay, what common bonds do we share? We never look beyond our sexuality. Instead we would rather bitch, complain, judge and dismiss others. I even see it on here "Are you a REAL JOCK?" WTF? If we're always going to take the all-exclusive instead of the all-inclusive approach we will never be unified.

    Lastly, we need to change our image if we are to be successful. I agree, I think Gay Pride can be somewhat a detriment to us, especially when covered by the media. What do you see on TV? Drag queens, go-go boys in thongs and bears in leather. The other side takes these images and manipulates them for their cause "Do these people deserve the right to marry?" Where are the ads of loving, hard-working average-Joe gay men and women to counterpoint this? Instead we take a very soft lukewarm approach.icon_mad.gif

    That's my 25 cents,

    --Vince



  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Nov 11, 2008 11:53 AM GMT
    What do we need to take from this ?

    Gays need to realize that when people say how nice you are to your face and say that they are progressive and that their best friend is gay
    That it's all Bullsh*t ... and in the dark of night or with the anonymity of the voting booth they will contradict everything that they say

    Time to out them
    Time to show them what real hypocrites they really are
    That's why these protests are so important
    That's why commentaries like Olberman's was so good for our cause
    It holds a mirror and exposes the ugliness that's really out there
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    Nov 11, 2008 12:24 PM GMT
    I disagree with shunning or limiting the expression of the individual. Look, we're not all REAL JOCKS. Yes, there are some REAL JOCKS, but many of us are not. I've noticed up here in New England that even gay men are fascinated with sports and that's great, but there are a lot of gay men who are not only not interested in sports, but they're also more flamboyant than some of us.

    Yes, the opposition will take the most extreme picture and hold it up and say, "See, look at them...they don't deserve equal rights." Yet, even if there were no flamboyance and only sports-loving "REAL JOCKS", the opposition would take a picture of two men simply walking down the street, holding hands and hold that picture up and say, "See, look at them...they don't deserve equal rights."

    We must remember who the opposition is, and it is not the flamboyant among us and it serves no purpose in blaming them or implying that if they would just tone it down, society will accept us. We have to fight for acceptance, in whatever shape we appear and as diverse and varied as it is.