Dangers of Circumcision - 70 deaths in South Africa

  • Suetonius

    Posts: 1842

    Jul 20, 2013 2:01 AM GMT
    Apparently, in an attempt to return to more traditional tribal ways, thousands of 10-15 year old boys in Mpumalanga province, South Africa, go off to survival camps in the boonies for a month, where they get circumcised as part of the ritual. Unfortunately instead of moyles, the profiteering organizers employ totally unskilled help to do the circumcising, with disastrous results. The BBC reported today that 70 have died so far this year, with many more in intensive care wards. Some boys are horribly scarred, and some get their penises amputated (and then some of those commit suicide.)


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/10073918/33-men-die-in-South-African-circumcision-ceremonies.html

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 20, 2013 8:16 PM GMT
    That's horrible! Feel sorry for them!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 20, 2013 8:40 PM GMT
    Well, in South Africa, circumcision is major surgery...icon_neutral.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 20, 2013 8:52 PM GMT
    This thread needs Southbeach to weigh in on it.
  • Kazachok

    Posts: 415

    Jul 20, 2013 11:07 PM GMT
    Oh god, that is horrible.
    And female "circumcision" is even worse!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 20, 2013 11:19 PM GMT
    well that ruff. In the xhosa and sesotho region, a man who is not circumcissed is not respected. He lives his whole life looked down upon. But the bad thing in all of this, is that, they are not allowed to go to the hospital (traditionally) as that is seen as weak and inferior. The whole point of boys being circumcised in the mountain, is so that they will learn the hardship of life. the sad part is that not all make it on the other side. It a shame but at the same time how can u seperate a man from his traditions. The state has no power, they have tried but it seems no one is listening.
  • mitshoo

    Posts: 76

    Jul 20, 2013 11:21 PM GMT
    I wonder if there was as high a death rate before the practice went into decline. That is, I wonder if the tribe actually used to be better at circumcision before all of this globalization and destabilization of tradition.
  • Suetonius

    Posts: 1842

    Jul 20, 2013 11:53 PM GMT
    mitshoo saidI wonder if there was as high a death rate before the practice went into decline. That is, I wonder if the tribe actually used to be better at circumcision before all of this globalization and destabilization of tradition.


    That was definitely the implication of the reports - that the "commercialization" of the camps has lead to high infection rates from botched jobs.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 12:59 PM GMT
    Suetonius said
    mitshoo saidI wonder if there was as high a death rate before the practice went into decline. That is, I wonder if the tribe actually used to be better at circumcision before all of this globalization and destabilization of tradition.


    That was definitely the implication of the reports - that the "commercialization" of the camps has lead to high infection rates from botched jobs.
    the used be deaths but not at this rate. it sad really. Being that mpumalanga didnt do these traditional circumcission in the past, i think that is why death rate is so high. And last time i heard the boys needed to be 18 years to be allowed in the initiation schools.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 1:15 PM GMT
    Geez people been doing circumcision for 3000 years. Don't get a circumcision in Africa, find a good mohel in Brooklyn
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 1:25 PM GMT
    somersault saidGeez people been doing circumcision for 3000 years. Don't get a circumcision in Africa, find a good mohel in Brooklyn
    dude kids as young as 10 years old have died and u making a joke.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 1:27 PM GMT
    well then, do something about it, it's not a fucking kidney transplant
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 1:36 PM GMT
    somersault saidwell then, do something about it, it's not a fucking kidney transplant
    due dude that was insensitive and u know it. and your smart ass answer is even worse.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 1:48 PM GMT
    insensitive is a culture (in 2013) that lets kids undergo a procedure in the middle of friggin nowhere and puts their lives at risk
  • conservativej...

    Posts: 2465

    Jul 21, 2013 2:17 PM GMT
    Hum, there is a key word in all of that.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 3:38 PM GMT
    somersault saidinsensitive is a culture (in 2013) that lets kids undergo a procedure in the middle of friggin nowhere and puts their lives at risk
    dude dnt change the tune u were making a smart ass joke and now u are concerned give me a bloody break. and i think u have no right to make jugdement about the culture u have no clue about.
  • MikeW

    Posts: 6061

    Jul 21, 2013 4:04 PM GMT
    I have a vague memory of seeing an athropological documentary about African tribes that had circumcision (as well as female genital scaring) as rights-of-passage rituals. This was a LONG time ago so don't remember it clearly or even how old I was when I saw it. It definitely left an impression (being uncut, myself, for one thing) though.

    First off you have to understand this isn't the same thing as being circumcised as an infant. These are young boys entering puberty. It's also in the context of (apparently, a now somewhat lost) indigenous tradition of transitioning from childhood to manhood. A badge of courage you might say. In that culture you're not officially a *man* if you're not circumcised.

    As I recall it (and I may not be recalling this accurately), the men would mock-raid the village dressed in (often scary) costumes and steel the boys away from the women who had tended them in their early years, hauling them off to a remote location where they were given brews (herbal anesthetics?), and rituals of various sorts were performed. Then they laid down in a circle with their heads together and the shaman went around and cut off the foreskin of each one and sometimes did other skin scarring as well (clan marks?).

    When the ceremony was over, the boys now totally freaked out, were considered apart of the 'male' side of the tribe, no longer under the care of their mothers and sisters.

    Archaic culture seems alien and perhaps brutal to us but it comes out of a tribal consciousness that survived in a hostile environment for thousands of years. I assume these deaths are due to important aspects of the ritual having now been lost due to colonization from the West. Sad. icon_sad.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 4:46 PM GMT
    MikeW saidI have a vague memory of seeing an athropological documentary about African tribes that had circumcision (as well as female genital scaring) as rights-of-passage rituals. This was a LONG time ago so don't remember it clearly or even how old I was when I saw it. It definitely left an impression (being uncut, myself, for one thing) though.

    First off you have to understand this isn't the same thing as being circumcised as an infant. These are young boys entering puberty. It's also in the context of (apparently, a now somewhat lost) indigenous tradition of transitioning from childhood to manhood. A badge of courage you might say. In that culture you're not officially a *man* if you're not circumcised.

    As I recall it (and I may not be recalling this accurately), the men would mock-raid the village dressed in (often scary) costumes and steel the boys away from the women who had tended them in their early years, hauling them off to a remote location where they were given brews (herbal anesthetics?), and rituals of various sorts were performed. Then they laid down in a circle with their heads together and the shaman went around and cut off the foreskin of each one and sometimes did other skin scarring as well (clan marks?).

    When the ceremony was over, the boys now totally freaked out, were considered apart of the 'male' side of the tribe, no longer under the care of their mothers and sisters.

    Archaic culture seems alien and perhaps brutal to us but it comes out of a tribal consciousness that survived in a hostile environment for thousands of years. I assume these deaths are due to important aspects of the ritual having now been lost due to colonization from the West. Sad. icon_sad.gif
    +1
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 4:58 PM GMT
    turbobilly saidWell, in South Africa, circumcision is major surgery...icon_neutral.gif


    you're a misinformed uneducated person if you can make a statement like this about a country that pioneered heart transplant surgery..... I personally have performed hundreds of circumcisions. these tribal circs are performed by spiritual healers not trained medical personnel. our government have taken steps to prevent this occurrence, but the decision is ultimately left to the parents and the boys themselves ( some educated and informed), above the age of 18 who still opt for this method of circumcision instead of the safer, free option. always disappointing when people make idiotic comments.... and by the way no....I don't own an elephant in my back yard
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 5:18 PM GMT
    SKM2 said
    somersault saidinsensitive is a culture (in 2013) that lets kids undergo a procedure in the middle of friggin nowhere and puts their lives at risk
    dude dnt change the tune u were making a smart ass joke and now u are concerned give me a bloody break. and i think u have no right to make jugdement about the culture u have no clue about.


    I can judge any culture that condones performing an otherwise safe procedure like this under such abhorrent conditions, for the sake of some archaic cultural ritual, as being criminal.
  • monstapex

    Posts: 478

    Jul 21, 2013 6:26 PM GMT
    Why is it gay men worry about somebody's dick they'll never see. Worry about getting a chancre on yours from putting it in some man's ass.icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 21, 2013 10:26 PM GMT
    Durbdoc said
    turbobilly saidWell, in South Africa, circumcision is major surgery...icon_neutral.gif


    you're a misinformed uneducated person if you can make a statement like this about a country that pioneered heart transplant surgery..... I personally have performed hundreds of circumcisions. these tribal circs are performed by spiritual healers not trained medical personnel. our government have taken steps to prevent this occurrence, but the decision is ultimately left to the parents and the boys themselves ( some educated and informed), above the age of 18 who still opt for this method of circumcision instead of the safer, free option. always disappointing when people make idiotic comments.... and by the way no....I don't own an elephant in my back yard


    icon_lol.gif You don't own a peanut costume, do you?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 22, 2013 4:51 PM GMT
    Sorry but I'm just like...wtf were you thinking? No. Just. Don't.
  • madsexy

    Posts: 4843

    Jul 22, 2013 5:05 PM GMT
    somersault said
    SKM2 said
    somersault saidinsensitive is a culture (in 2013) that lets kids undergo a procedure in the middle of friggin nowhere and puts their lives at risk
    dude dnt change the tune u were making a smart ass joke and now u are concerned give me a bloody break. and i think u have no right to make jugdement about the culture u have no clue about.


    I can judge any culture that condones performing an otherwise safe procedure like this under such abhorrent conditions, for the sake of some archaic cultural ritual, as being criminal.

    Amen brother!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jul 25, 2013 1:55 PM GMT
    somersault said

    I can judge any culture that condones performing an otherwise safe procedure like this under such abhorrent conditions, for the sake of some archaic cultural ritual, as being criminal.


    You can indeed. A culture is however a rather non-descript thing to judge and just a euphemism for race or ethnicity as you use it.

    You could replace "culture" with "cultural practice" and you'd be swinging a different bat. But then of course you'd be forced to look at the larger practice of circumcision in many cultures. So this way it is easier for you to point the finger outward at others when the three pointing back at you are too sensitive an issue to criticize.

    Why stop at the deaths of men being circumcised as if it is civilized to invade and butcher a new-born boy's body without him even having a say in it? The same can be said/asked for subjecting a grown boy who is aware of his dependence and identity on his community to such a practice through peer-pressure.

    If you are an adult who chooses to be circumcised, that is as it should be - your choice. But butchering new-born baby boys is not. Nor is the peer pressure applied to grown boys in a cultural set-up.

    So if you want to speak of an archaic cultural ritual, there you have one that is as archaic and unintelligent as it gets mate! You don't get to throw out the bathwater and keep the baby on this one.