Another NHL Team in Toronto?

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    Nov 09, 2008 7:14 PM GMT
    So they've been talking about this recently, didn't see a post here so figured I'd put one up.

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2008/10/21/nhl-toronto.html?ref=rss

    What do you guys think about having another NHL team in Toronto? Personally I think having 2 NHL teams in TO isn't a good idea, however if they were to put a new one in Hamilton, I'd definitely not have a problem with it. That way, I might be able to see an NHL game without going across the border icon_rolleyes.gif. It'd be good for the economy I think, creating more jobs and getting more money going through Ontario. So, what's your take? Good idea, bad idea, why does Ontario need another struggling hockey club, etc.
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    Nov 09, 2008 8:42 PM GMT
    I am a diehard Maple Leafs fan. Having another hockey team in the Toronto area would suck to be perfectly honest. New York City has three teams in the metro area, but only one, the Rangers, consistently draws big crowds. Despite years of success, the New Jersey Devils crowds are small by comparison.
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    Nov 09, 2008 10:45 PM GMT
    I want Jim Basille to get a club. Particularly after that loser owner in Nashville screwed him over
    Money talks-Basille has it. as far as Toronto. Prefer Hamilton-the market's more than enough to supports two NHL teams.

    look at Canadian franchises, ie Toronto are subsidizing the likes of Nashville, Carolina etc. when was the last time you got a hockey ticket for ten bucks.
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    Nov 09, 2008 11:02 PM GMT
    The Buffalo Bills will be now playing in TO part time and the market is certanitly big enough to handle a few visits from our Sabers.
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    Nov 10, 2008 1:08 AM GMT



  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 10, 2008 1:20 AM GMT
    fogos saidI want Jim Basille to get a club. Particularly after that loser owner in Nashville screwed him over

    That's a matter of perspective I guess. How did Craig Leopold screw Jim Balsillie?

    As I understand it, Balsillie was negotiating in bad faith, telling Nashville that he intended to keep the team in place while simultaneously telling people in Hamilton, Ont. that the team was coming there, even putting up season tickets for sale.
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    Nov 10, 2008 1:22 AM GMT
    MunchingZombie saidThe Buffalo Bills will be now playing in TO part time and the market is certanitly big enough to handle a few visits from our Sabers.


    Sacrilege! icon_twisted.gif
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    Nov 10, 2008 5:12 AM GMT
    The decision ought to be based on what increases the overall revenue pie of the NHL. Then you have to add the question of temporality to the equation. In other words, you can't just look at the revenue pie of today or tomorrow, but of 15 and 30 years from now.

    First, how much would another team in Toronto or nearby cannibalize current NHL revenue vs. bring in new revenue?

    Second, how does that team affect overall NHL revenue over time?

    Lastly, one has to look at how it impacts the sport as a whole. Does it bring in new fans? Does it increase the presence of hockey?
  • shoelessj

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    Nov 10, 2008 5:24 AM GMT
    Better two teams in Toronto than two in LA or two in Florida.
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    Nov 10, 2008 5:40 AM GMT
    Hamilton needs a team, it'd help clean the city up bring jobs to the city and help the redevelopment of the downtown core.

    Toronto even as pissed off they get with there beloved maple leafs, I think a new team wouldn't be widely accepted..

    I have heard that an NFL team might be coming to Toronto down the road as the NFL looks to expand. I say bring it on. I'd love a chance to see a patriots game live... and nothing wrong with a few men in tights running around getting sweaty ;) Mmmmm football butts icon_razz.gif
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    Dec 02, 2008 8:09 PM GMT
    SurrealLife saidI am a diehard Maple Leafs fan. Having another hockey team in the Toronto area would suck to be perfectly honest. New York City has three teams in the metro area, but only one, the Rangers, consistently draws big crowds. Despite years of success, the New Jersey Devils crowds are small by comparison.


    So are you saying that if there was another NHL team in Ontario that they wouldn't have sold out crowds? I know I'd likely try to see at least 10 games a year if the prices weren't too bad, if there was an NHL team in Hamilton. I know TONS of people that would go to the games if there was a new club.

    TSNBalsillie's lawyer Richard Rodier was reluctant to comment on ticket sales when reached late Thursday afternoon, but did say that almost 60 deposits of $5,000 for corporate boxes at Copps Coliseum had been received.

    Sources tell TSN that there have been more than 4,700 deposits for lower bowl seats and almost 2,500 deposits for upper bowl seats.While $5,000 is required to reserve a corporate box, a $500 deposit will get you an upper bowl seat and $1,000 is needed for a seat in the lower bowl.

    Hamilton has long been rumoured as a potential NHL city and has actually held a ticket drive before. More than 13,000 season tickets were sold in 1990 when Hamilton was bidding for an expansion franchise.


    http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=210839

    I don't think that lack of interest/ticket sales would be a good argument on this one. With the way GM is looking right now... some more jobs definitely couldn't hurt.

    hockeytigerFirst, how much would another team in Toronto or nearby cannibalize current NHL revenue vs. bring in new revenue?

    Second, how does that team affect overall NHL revenue over time?

    Lastly, one has to look at how it impacts the sport as a whole. Does it bring in new fans? Does it increase the presence of hockey?


    I think the only place where anyone would lose money is Toronto and their merchandise sales. If there was a new team, they'd have close to sold out games, if not sold out so the NHL is making more money as a whole than one club losing some money from merchandising. I think it could create some healthy competition between the two teams. Overall merchandising between both teams would be more than with just one team, people want something visible to show their support for their team. I think the pros definitely outweigh the cons and there's really no reason to have an NHL team in Nashville or Florida when you could have sold out games in Hamilton. Whether it brings in new fans, I doubt it would bring in a lot of new fans. I usually go to Buffalo if I want to see a Leafs game, and when I go there I'd say about half the folks that are there are in Leafs jerseys, if not more. What does that say?

    Fogos, the guy in that video is smokin'!
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    Dec 02, 2008 8:42 PM GMT
    I'd MUCH rather see the NHL expand with a new (or repositioned) team in Hamilton, London, or K-W than see the NFL move into Toronto.

    We already have a football league, thanks.
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    Dec 02, 2008 8:50 PM GMT
    I'm all for more Canadian NHL teams. But why not bring one back to Quebec City? Winnipeg? Wouldn't it be cool to have a team from one of the maritime provinces? But maybe there's not enough population to support one.

    That the NHL has made it to the US deep south and southwest is silly. There's no hockey culture in those places. It was criminal when the Minnesota North Stars moved to Dallas.

    As for the NFL in Canada...no way. The CFL is doing just fine, no?
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    Dec 02, 2008 9:07 PM GMT
    shoelessj saidBetter two teams in Toronto than two in LA or two in Florida.


    Please!!! 2 teams in LA would be awsome. Just to let you know the Kings sell out their Arena more than 90% of the teams in the US! GO KINGS GO!
  • Musclebucket

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    Dec 02, 2008 9:28 PM GMT
    The Red Wings are the only team Canada needs
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    Dec 02, 2008 9:34 PM GMT
    I agree, I think it would be quite cool if Halifax for instance could support an NHL team--and no reason why Quebec City couldn't try again. I mean, southern expansion was a nice idea--but do kids in Georgia and Louisiana ever grow up dreaming they'll be professional hockey player?

    XRuggerATX saidI'm all for more Canadian NHL teams. But why not bring one back to Quebec City? Winnipeg? Wouldn't it be cool to have a team from one of the maritime provinces? But maybe there's not enough population to support one.

    That the NHL has made it to the US deep south and southwest is silly. There's no hockey culture in those places. It was criminal when the Minnesota North Stars moved to Dallas.

    As for the NFL in Canada...no way. The CFL is doing just fine, no?
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    Feb 28, 2009 2:17 AM GMT
    I'm all for another team in Hamilton! Especially with the latest ticket price increase announced. We're getting hosed by this club. Even though I love em to death!
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    Feb 28, 2009 5:49 PM GMT
    cdncuteboy saidI agree, I think it would be quite cool if Halifax for instance could support an NHL team--and no reason why Quebec City couldn't try again. I mean, southern expansion was a nice idea--but do kids in Georgia and Louisiana ever grow up dreaming they'll be professional hockey player?

    XRuggerATX saidI'm all for more Canadian NHL teams. But why not bring one back to Quebec City? Winnipeg? Wouldn't it be cool to have a team from one of the maritime provinces? But maybe there's not enough population to support one.

    That the NHL has made it to the US deep south and southwest is silly. There's no hockey culture in those places. It was criminal when the Minnesota North Stars moved to Dallas.

    As for the NFL in Canada...no way. The CFL is doing just fine, no?


    Georgia is actually the only state in the South where it's logical to have an NHL team. Yes, I'm a Thrashers fan. But the number of transplants from the Northeast and the upper Midwest to Atlanta during the last 25 years has been absolutely massive.

    When the Thrashers even start to sniff at success in any given season (i.e., look like they have a shot at even getting to the eighth spot), the crowds are huge. The Thrashers have just had the misfortune of terrible ownership and management. When the Flames were there back in the day, the boom of Atlanta had yet to begin and it was still a regional city like Birmingham or Nashville. Now it has more than 5 million residents and the Southern accent seems to be in the minority.
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    Feb 28, 2009 6:05 PM GMT
    RuggerATX saidI'm all for more Canadian NHL teams. But why not bring one back to Quebec City? Winnipeg? Wouldn't it be cool to have a team from one of the maritime provinces? But maybe there's not enough population to support one.

    That the NHL has made it to the US deep south and southwest is silly. There's no hockey culture in those places. It was criminal when the Minnesota North Stars moved to Dallas.

    As for the NFL in Canada...no way. The CFL is doing just fine, no?


    CFL is doing great here still however the NFL has a huge following in Canada and it's still more popular in Canada than the CFL, also i'm sure you know that the rules are slightly different and the feild sizes I believe are bigger in the NFL.. I could be wrong about that.

    I'm almost sure that Buffalo is relocating to Toronto.. and the NHL team i've heard rumors of might be moving to Hamilton. But that last one is only hear say. Because Hamilton is only 40 minutes either side of Buffalo and Toronto their would be too many teams in a small area.
  • roadbikeRob

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    Feb 28, 2009 6:13 PM GMT
    I think an NHL team in Hamilton makes much more sense than a second team in Toronto. This will greatly help Hamilton emerge from the shadows of both Toronto and Buffalo and advertise that it is truly a big, major city and a metropolitan core just like Buffalo and Toronto. Plus Hamilton is now over twice the size of both Buffalo and Rochester due to its successful annexation and amalgamation. I agree with XRuggerATX about the NFL. Canada has the CFL which is doing very well and Toronto really should not be nosing itself into the NFL. Just because it is bigger and more prosperous does not mean it is better and more profitable. The Bills need to remain in Buffalo where they rightfully belong. I do not appreciate Toronto trying to steal the Bills from Buffalo. If they want to Americanize themselves so bad by geting into the NFL, then they should try to steal the Lions from Detroit instead. Toronto should also keep in mind that their march towards Americanization most likely will not go over very well with the rest of Canada.
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    Feb 28, 2009 6:18 PM GMT
    We have to separate what fans want and what is good for hockey in general.

    Bringing more teams to Canada looks great at first glance, but in all honesty are you going to be selling more tickets? Probably not so much. You are just going to cannabilize from other hockey teams, whether NHL, AHL, or CHL. Are you creating more viewers? I doubt it. Are you encouraging more kids to play hockey? That's a tough task in Canada. While more teams in Canada would pacify Canadian fans but I'm not sure it really helps the overall hockey bottom line or help grow the sport.

    If you take a look at what has happened in the southern US, you will find that the sport has grown quite a bit. Here's an interesting fact for ya, about five years ago, what state or province had the most profressional hockey players? The answer is Texas. Yes, I was blown away by that too. Admittedly you have to do some creative math in that juniors aren't considered professionals, even though realistically they probably are. But still. Wow. There are Junior teams popping up through the south and especially California. Granted they are mostly JAT3 but still. None of that was true 15 years ago. Hockey in the US (outside the NHL) was lmited to the upper midwest and the New England area with a few guys from Ohio and New York. I ask you to take a look at the NHL drafts over that past few years. Guys are now being considered draftable (and in fact have been drafted) who were born in places like California, Florida, and Texas. That simply wasn't true fifteen years ago.

    While I can't say that southern exapnsion has been a financial success it has grown the sport. Kids are playing the sport who never would have before. Some of these guys are now gowing into men, who are going to have kids themselves soon. Youth hockey is a booming industry in the US.

    Trust me, this is a bitter pill for me to swallow too. I grew up in northern MN, and was a huge Northstars fan as a kid. When they moved it was a genuine traumatic event. I don't think I could have been more traumatized if my parents had gotten a divorce. But facts are facts, southern expansion hasn't been quite the dismal failure a lot of people make it out to be. Granted it hasn't been a huge financial success either, but I consider this to be R&D costs.

  • roadbikeRob

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    Feb 28, 2009 6:22 PM GMT
    The NFL is more popular than the CFL in Canada? Not necessarily true. You mean that the NFL is more popular in the Province of Ontario than is the CFL. That is probably due to the continued piss poor performance by Toronto's CFL francise on the field. But the rest of Canada, I strongly doubt that the NFL is more popular than the CFL and chances of that happening are pretty slim at best. Its not accurate to equate what is popular in Ontario with the rest of Canada.
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    Feb 28, 2009 6:24 PM GMT
    Hamilton or Winnipeg Yes, Halifax is so geographically disparate from the rest of Canada, would they have the base to support a team? Not really a business centre for travelling fans to help support, ie Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Vancouver I have been to games in all those cities as part of work travel. Is there a corporate base large enough to scoop up the suites and premium season tickets.

    I was a die-hard Leafs growing up and still "love" the team, I would be very surprised if that organization would sit back and allow their market to be split, its one of the only clubs I know that consistently sells out that hasn't had any real success on the ice for AGES. The league needs to be careful where/if another team comes to Canada.

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    May 06, 2009 7:24 PM GMT
    Looks like Balsillie is going after Phoenix now. In an apparent collusion between him and the curent ownership, the team declared bankruptcy, without bothering to consult with the NHL. Nor does the organization even look like it needs to enter bankruptcy. From all I read, it looks like they can pay their creditors without bankruptcy help. The guess is that they are trying to use bankruptcy as leverage to alter the deal with Scottsdale so they can move easier.

    I doubt this has made the NHL Board of Governors very happy. And they weren't too keen on Balsillie before.

    I have no objection to a team in Hamilton if it can be shown to be vaible (almost certainly) and in the best interests of the NHL and hockey in general (maybe). If Balsillie could learn to temper his ego, be patient, and kiss a little ass he'd have his team. Just because you are a rich Canadian, that does not entitle you to a hockey team.
  • shoelessj

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    May 07, 2009 4:57 PM GMT
    I heard on the radio this morning that jerry reinsdorf, the chairman of the chicago bulls and white sox, is looking to buy a stake in the coyotes. kind of disappointing, since it doesn't seem to be love of hockey that motivates him if that's the case.

    i think if a team is failing and no one is going to the games and its not supported by the community, it should be allowed to fail and a team should be allowed to open shop in a more viable place, even if it's near another team. heck, we have two baseball teams in chicago and both seem to do quite well; there are baseball teams in washington DC and Baltimore, and the washington team doesn't seem to have had a bad effect on the established Baltimore team.

    But what do i know? I think places like phoenix and san jose and anaheim are fine for minor league teams, but not the NHL.