Prop 8: White Bias and Blaming the Black Community?

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    Nov 10, 2008 9:53 PM GMT
    From an email a friend passed on to me. As a gay community of mostly white folks, did we have privileged assumptions of how the majority of black folks would view Prop 8? Are we really as "reciprocal" in supporting race/ethnicity/class issues as we expect communities of color to be of us? Do we even address many issues of class and race within our own community? What assumptions can we as mostly white gays challenge for ourselves, and how do we and many other oppressed groups of the left continue to build coalitions?

    Anyway, some thoughts for you to chew on, and discuss if you feel so inclined.

    This article/opinion appeared in the L.A. Times and can be found at both links:

    http://www.jasmynecannick.com/blog/?p=2860
    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-cannick8-2008nov08,0,3295255.story

    OPINION
    No-on-8's white bias
    The right to marry does nothing to address the problems faced by both black gays and black straights.
    By Jasmyne A. Cannick
    November 8, 2008
    I am a perfect example of why the fight against Proposition 8, which amends the state Constitution to ban same-sex marriage, failed to win black support.

    I am black. I am a political activist who cares deeply about social justice issues. I am a lesbian. This year, I canvassed the streets of South Los Angeles and Compton, knocking on doors, talking politics to passers-by and working as I never had before to ensure a large voter turnout among African Americans. But even I wasn't inspired to encourage black people to vote against the proposition.

    Why? Because I don't see why the right to marry should be a priority for me or other black people. Gay marriage? Please. At a time when blacks are still more likely than whites to be pulled over for no reason, more likely to be unemployed than whites, more likely to live at or below the poverty line, I was too busy trying to get black people registered to vote, period; I wasn't about to focus my attention on what couldn't help but feel like a secondary issue.

    The first problem with Proposition 8 was the issue of marriage itself. The white gay community never successfully communicated to blacks why it should matter to us above everything else -- not just to me as a lesbian but to blacks generally. The way I see it, the white gay community is banging its head against the glass ceiling of a room called equality, believing that a breakthrough on marriage will bestow on it parity with heterosexuals. But the right to marry does nothing to address the problems faced by both black gays and black straights. Does someone who is homeless or suffering from HIV but has no healthcare, or newly out of prison and unemployed, really benefit from the right to marry someone of the same sex?

    Maybe white gays could afford to be singularly focused, raising millions of dollars to fight for the luxury of same-sex marriage. But blacks were walking the streets of the projects and reaching out to small businesses, gang members, convicted felons and the spectrum of an entire community to ensure that we all were able to vote.

    Second is the issue of civil rights. White gays often wonder aloud why blacks, of all people, won't support their civil rights. There is a real misunderstanding by the white gay community about the term. Proponents of gay marriage fling it around as if it is a one-size-fits-all catchphrase for issues of fairness.

    But the black civil rights movement was essentially born out of and driven by the black church; social justice and religion are inextricably intertwined in the black community. To many blacks, civil rights are grounded in Christianity -- not something separate and apart from religion but synonymous with it. To the extent that the issue of gay marriage seemed to be pitted against the church, it was going to be a losing battle in my community.

    Then there was the poorly conceived campaign strategy. Opponents of Proposition 8 relied on an outdated civil rights model, engaging the National Assn. for the Advancement of Colored People to help win black support on the issue of gay marriage. This happened despite the warnings of black lesbians and gays that it wouldn't work. While the NAACP definitely should have been included in the strategy, it shouldn't have been the only group. Putting nearly a quarter of a million dollars into an outdated civil rights group that has very little influence on the black vote -- at least when it comes to gay issues -- will never work.

    Likewise, holding the occasional town-hall meeting in Leimert Park -- the one part of the black community where they now feel safe thanks to gentrification -- to tell black people how to vote on something gay isn't effective outreach either.

    There's nothing a white gay person can tell me when it comes to how I as a black lesbian should talk to my community about this issue. If and when I choose to, I know how to say what needs to be said. Many black gays just haven't been convinced that this movement for marriage is about anything more than the white gays who fund it (and who, we often find, are just as racist and clueless when it comes to blacks as they claim blacks are homophobic).

    Some people seem to think that homophobia trumps racism, and that winning the battle for gay marriage will symbolically bring about equality for everyone. That may seem true to white gays, but as a black lesbian, let me tell you: There are still too many inequalities that exist as it relates to my race for that to ever be the case. Ever heard of "driving while black"? Ever looked at the difference between the dropout rates for blacks and for whites? Or test scores? Or wages? Or rates of incarceration?

    And in the end, black voters in California voted against gay marriage by more than 2 to 1.

    Maybe next time around -- because we all know this isn't over -- the gay community can demonstrate the capacity and willingness to change that America demonstrated when it went to the polls on Nov. 4. Black gays are depending on their white counterparts to finally "get it."

    Until then, don't expect to make any inroads any time soon in the black community on this issue -- including with this black lesbian.

    Jasmyne A. Cannick is a writer in Los Angeles. jasmynecannick.com.
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    Nov 11, 2008 3:59 AM GMT
    This is such a brilliant article.

    There were a few threads a few months ago about race and class in the gay community. Most of them ended with various white guys saying, 'Sorry, I'm not racist but I'm just not into black/asian/etc men.'-- as if the issue was solely one of sexual attraction, and not fundamentally one about identifying with and including minority gay men in the broader and predominantly white gay culture and community.

    Good for this writer to bring up this issue; now that America's elected a mixed race man to the highest office in the land, hopefully we can upend some traditional views about what race means and air out these issues. It would do America, and the gay community, a lot of good.
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:38 AM GMT
    I agree with the article in that gays did not reach out to blacks very effectively this time around. But I do have some problems with some of the statements the author makes.

    Can someone explain to me how exactly is the gay community in particular racist against blacks? I too have noticed how many white guys claim to not be "into black people". I find that pretty close minded, but I also see similar trends among straight people. Couples of mixed races are not common in either gays or straights, so I don't get why we point out gay men.

    And I don't buy her excuse that there are better things the black community has to worry about. The interests of blacks and interests of gays are not mutually exclusive. The black community could have still supported our cause without any negative results to theirs.
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    Nov 11, 2008 5:01 AM GMT
    someone posted this elsewhere in the jake benson thread. I also listened to a segment on NPR on this today. I still see this as a religious issue mainly at this time and not a race issue but in a way this article is saying it was a race issue. It doesn't really matter to me. Discrimination is ironically equal opportunity, meaning anyone can do it for various reasons of not being able to relate to each other in some way and therefore not caring. It makes me weary thinking about it.

    I look at the issue as I have written else where, as one of historical significance. As long as there have been queers, they have been reviled and persecuted. Just look even in terms of the last century. Every major political movement scapegoats people -- gays included.

    For the Nazi's it was a whole slew of groups, homosexuals included .. ." Homosexuality was declared contrary to "wholesome popular sentiment,", it was also thought that homosexuality was contagious and had to be contained (or in reality exterminated).

    And in the Russian Communist Revolution .. "Post World War II, a sexually conservative mood dominated both the Left and the Right. McCarthyism in the US believed a "homosexual underground" was abetting the "communist conspiracy", while the USSR continued to imprison homosexuals for their "bourgeois capitalist vice"." It was the same in China during their revolution. Gays were looked at the same way and horribly persecuted and killed and treated as a disease.

    Anyway, even in the absence of religion which has also stalked and killed queers for centuries, people will find a way to demonize and hate queers. It seems to be an emotional thing fueled by ignorance and a deep revulsion that we are at odds with nature and an object of fear.

    We span all races, ethnic groups, continents, cultures, and are persecuted everywhere even though we are in fact a feature of nature. Putting that all in perspective I can pretty much say Gay persecution is not a race thing but sadly a human thing.
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    Nov 11, 2008 5:29 AM GMT


    We agree, ActiveAndFit,

    That said, many things must have changed in the US since the 70s, for the author to speak the way she has. Back then, black gays were rare enough to be worshiped. Most people I knew on both sides of the border were entralled. Mind you, I never travelled farther than the northwest in the US, or farther eastwards through Canada very much.

    I had a wonderful experience with the back-up singer of a very famous singer you all know. We spent an amazing night together here in Vancouver, but then he flew to LA the next day. Oh well....

    I was the local buzz for the next month.

    Dayo, day-day- daayy-yo, daylight came and me had to go home.

    -Doug
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    Nov 11, 2008 5:52 AM GMT
    homonculus saidWhy? Because I don't see why the right to marry should be a priority for me or other black people. Gay marriage? Please.


    I find this offensive. What does the protecting of one right for a group of people (gay people) have to do with the continuing fight to protect the rights of another group (black people)?

    Does this person actually believe that abrogating the rights of gay men and women to marry is a logical action to take because she feels that the fight for racial equality is more important? Am I missing something here?

    The logic is specious, cynical, self-righteous and pompous. I think she should be ashamed of herself.

    Eliminating the rights of any group is a slap in the face for the fight for equality of other groups. The fact that the flght for equailty for black Americans has been more bloody, more long-lived, more frustrating and many other "mores" does not justify voting to eliminate the rights of another group.

    Incredible.
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    Nov 11, 2008 2:40 PM GMT
    dowal said

    Can someone explain to me how exactly is the gay community in particular racist against blacks? I too have noticed how many white guys claim to not be "into black people". I find that pretty close minded, but I also see similar trends among straight people. Couples of mixed races are not common in either gays or straights, so I don't get why we point out gay men.

    And I don't buy her excuse that there are better things the black community has to worry about. The interests of blacks and interests of gays are not mutually exclusive. The black community could have still supported our cause without any negative results to theirs.


    1. It's not that the gay community is 'racist' against black people, but rather that black gay and lesbian people often feel excluded from the gay community. This is achieved a few ways-- representation (that most gay media show and cater to white gay men and women) and inclusion (that most black gay and lesbian people feel that discussions about 'the gay experience' really only reflect the experiences of white gays and lesbians). On that second point, I think Cannick's argument about why outreach to the black community about Prop 8 failed is really instructive: religion and social justice are intimately tied together in the black community, even for black and lesbian gays. Attacking the proponents of Prop 8 as religious bigots is not going to go over well-- religion is important to the black conception of civil rights. Remember, Martin Luther King, Jr. was a preacher. So was Malcolm X (though he was Muslim).


    2. As to the what is most important for the black community to worry about, I think dowal gets it totally wrong. Look, I'm a yuppie gay in New York. I have health insurance and a college degree and I have real opportunities for advancement.

    This is not the case for a lot of black people-- and even if it is, many more agree that blacks have been at a disadvantage in our society. (Why were so many minorities so jubuliant at Obama's victory? Because they can hope that their children may have more opportunities than them-- to live without limits). It may be hard for some to accept, but there are more pressing issues than gay marriage-- and each community has to prioritise what it fights for. So, for the black community, caring about gay marriage is probably pretty low on a list that includes dealing daily with a lack of health insurance, poor educational facilities, drugs, gangs, poverty, institutional racism (driving while brown), and a host of more immediate problems than long-term commitment ceremonies. That's reality. And while the goals of both the gay and black communities may not be mutually exclusive, some issues are definitely more pressing than others.
  • MuslDrew

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    Nov 11, 2008 3:13 PM GMT
    Poor, straight people of all races certainly have issues that concern them more than gay marriage. No one was asked to reconsider their priorities, just to cast a vote. That's minimal effort and no sacrifice.
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    Nov 11, 2008 3:33 PM GMT
    Although I voted NO on Prop 8, I made my choice solely on principle. (I feel little to no solidarity with the gay community at large.) As odd as this may sound, I found it difficult to jump on the NO-on-Prop-8 bandwagon with a group of gays, many of whom are white and middle- to upper-class, who show little interest in matters that do not affect them. (I discussed the issue with those close to me, but did not attend any rallies.) White gays comprise the most powerful sector within the gay community. Yet they rarely reach across racial and class lines. If anything, they abet racial and socioeconomic exclusion. Most of the gay white men I know act as though gay marriage is the our most critical battle when it clearly isn't. Black gay men are dying from AIDS in disproportionately high numbers, but the white gay community doesn't seem to notice. Gay college students of all races--our future leaders--struggle in college, trying to find an ideal balance that sometimes eludes them because of a lack of support. Gay youth centers, which should be well-funded since they cater to the next generation, are often forced to make do with little because affluent white gay men would rather throw expensive, self-indulgent galas. (I attended a GLAAD gala several years ago and felt quite uncomfortable.) I have observed countless examples of what I call selfish misprioritization.


    I have many black gay friends who feel the way I do. We feel ignored--even slighted--by the white gay community. And with respect to the black community at large, there exists an even greater disconnect. The black community is grappling with issues of great consequence, none of which the white gay community has shown interest in. It is, therefore, no surprise, to me at least, that the black community responded to Prop 8 in such an incisively negative manner.

    One more thing: I, too, am uncomfortable with the notion that discrimination on the basis of race and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation are one and the same. Yes, there are similarities, but as Cannick's article suggests, there are also critical differences. Which is why I find it hard not to take the "separate water fountain" analogy as an affront.

    In closing, here's an example of gay racism at a Prop 8 protest:

    Geoffrey, a student at UCLA and regular Rod 2.0 reader, joined the massive protest outside the Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Westwood. Geoffrey was called the n-word at least twice.

    "It was like being at a Klan rally except the klansmen were wearing Abercrombie polos and Birkenstocks. YOU NIGGER, one man shouted at men. IF YOUR PEOPLE WANT TO CALL ME A FAGGOT, I WILL CALL YOU A NIGGER. Someone else said the same thing to me on the next block near the temple...me and my friend were walking, he is also gay but Korean, and a young WeHo clone said after last night the niggers better not come to West Hollywood if they knew what was BEST for them."


    Did the protest leaders check these undesirable elements? Have gay activists across America cautioned the gay community against such despicable behavior? If they haven't, they are being complicit and are not much better than these shameless bigots icon_evil.gif.

    I get where Cannick's comin' from.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Nov 11, 2008 3:39 PM GMT
    NNJfitandbi said, "She doesn't understand civil rights. This is about quid pro quo for her, getting hers. What a paltry, ungenerous perspective she has!!!!"


    Exactly what I was thinking. I've said it before in another thread and I'll say it again here: It's funny that white gay Obama supporters and voters are all of a sudden racist for calling out the Black Community for their significant majority vote in support of banning gay marriage.
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    Nov 11, 2008 3:51 PM GMT
    It is looking like Gays just need to stop relying on other people too much for help. We need to stand on our own two feet in many respects. It sounds like people like Coretta Scott King and Rep. John Lewis who were sympathetic and supportive of Gays are dying out. Maybe we enlist the help of people who are not so tied to their religion. Also the younger generation who is far more socially liberal may come to our aid. This also underscores the value of coming out to family and friends who really know us as individuals enough to care if discrimination against us is legalized. Ultimately our fate will be in the courts hands also.

    Of course interracial relations will always be an issue that needs to be looked at between all, asian, latin, black, white. Everyone has their own problems but that doesn't mean we need to disregard others or in fact BECOME an additional problem.
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    Nov 11, 2008 3:54 PM GMT
    coolHUSSEINdude saidNNJfitandbi said, "She doesn't understand civil rights. This is about quid pro quo for her, getting hers. What a paltry, ungenerous perspective she has!!!!"


    Exactly what I was thinking. I've said it before in another thread and I'll say it again here: It's funny that white gay Obama supporters and voters are all of a sudden racist for calling out the Black Community for their significant majority vote in support of banning gay marriage.


    It was only significant in that 70 % of the black voters in CA voted in favor of Prop 8. Many people act as though blacks were primarily responsible for the passing of Prop 8. That's silly and false. It's tough for a group to cast a decisive vote when its members, some of whom did not vote, constitute ~7 % of the entire population. And I'm certain that black voters did not outnumber non-black voters in CA in November 4.

    White gays can continue to attack the black community if they want. It's a counterproductive tactic that will NOT work. If anything, it will breed more ill will and resentment. How do you think that might affect race relations within the gay community?
  • swimbikerun

    Posts: 2835

    Nov 11, 2008 4:09 PM GMT
    BlkMuscleGent said
    coolHUSSEINdude saidNNJfitandbi said, "She doesn't understand civil rights. This is about quid pro quo for her, getting hers. What a paltry, ungenerous perspective she has!!!!"


    Exactly what I was thinking. I've said it before in another thread and I'll say it again here: It's funny that white gay Obama supporters and voters are all of a sudden racist for calling out the Black Community for their significant majority vote in support of banning gay marriage.


    It was only significant in that 70 % of the black voters in CA voted in favor of Prop 8. Many people act as though blacks were primarily responsible for the passing of Prop 8. That's silly and false. It's tough for a group to cast a decisive vote when its members, some of whom did not vote, constitute ~7 % of the entire population. And I'm certain that black voters did not outnumber non-black voters in CA in November 4.

    White gays can continue to attack the black community if they want. It's a counterproductive tactic that will NOT work. If anything, it will breed more ill will and resentment. How do you think that might affect race relations within the gay community?

    People are also really overlooking the fact that the Hispanic vote helped push Yes On 8 over.
    And even if San Diego and Los Angeles counties had flipped in the other direction, Yes On 8 would still have passed.
    What the Mormons exposed were the already existing stratifications within the gay community.
    Blacks and Hispanics would have had a harder time voting yes if they knew more out members of their community.
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:12 PM GMT
    BlkMuscleGent saidI have many black gay friends who feel the way I do. We feel ignored--even slighted--by the white gay community. And with respect to the black community at large, there exists an even greater disconnect. The black community is grappling with issues of great consequence, none of which the white gay community has shown interest in. It is, therefore, no surprise, to me at least, that the black community responded to Prop 8 in such an incisively negative manner.

    One more thing: I, too, am uncomfortable with the notion that discrimination on the basis of race and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation are one and the same. Yes, there are similarities, but as Cannick's article suggests, there are also critical differences. Which is why I find it hard not to take the "separate water fountain" analogy as an affront.
    I feel there could be self segregation going on here too. After all if you want to not be ignored but want to highlight difference then you create division. If people want to come together they should look at the common ground and not say "get off my ground."

    Gay people of all races and backgrounds have gone through horrendous persecution and abuse and still do till this day. I have been trying to hint at some of these things but am not sure if people pay attention. Gay persecution can tend to get swept under the rug and written off as in the holocaust. Look at organizations like Human Right Watch and see for yourself. Better yet just look at history. Maybe we will always be an acceptable minority to revile. Religious conservatism as well as other movements like using homosexuals as a fear/rallying object because no matter how often you kill us, we keep coming back because it is the heterosexuals who create us. See, and endless supply of villains to use .. perfect. Even if the races were segregated an at peace .. they would still have the good old repulsive queer to revile.

    Just as a warning, there was a GOP leader suggesting that abortion and "traditional family" (i.e. anti-gay) should be the new rallying point for the GOP. On the news clip he noted how wonderful and successful anti-gay legislation was this year. Watch out!
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:21 PM GMT
    swimbikerun saidPeople are also really overlooking the fact that the Hispanic vote helped push Yes On 8 over.
    And even if San Diego and Los Angeles counties had flipped in the other direction, Yes On 8 would still have passed.
    What the Mormons exposed were the already existing stratifications within the gay community.
    Blacks and Hispanics would have had a harder time voting yes if they knew more out members of their community.
    Hey! lol icon_lol.gif I can say latino's can be very open minded to the point of not being aligned with anything. My aunt on the Mexican side of my family is very accepting of me. ANYWAY, I think we should not be trying to befriend people of different races and ethnic groups JUST TO GET A VOTE, but because it is just the right thing to do.

    I think instead of people getting bitter and resentful people who are treated poorly should really express how it hurts to be alienated and lonely. This is what hurts most. I would remind people of all races that queer rejection is not just based on race. SO many queers I know think that they are too fat, too ugly, too skinny, etc .. the list goes on and on. As human beings we need to be more compassionate and merciful.. that's the ticket.
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:22 PM GMT
    When I take actions to fight for the rights of group that I do not personally belong to (i.e. black, women, etc.), I do it because, as a gay man, I relate to the discrimination. I don't do it because they did or didn't reach out to me, I do it because it is an issue of human rights.

    The author of that article is forcing an issue by viewing it through a tunnel.
    She states:
    "But the right to marry does nothing to address the problems faced by both black gays and black straights. Does someone who is homeless or suffering from HIV but has no healthcare, or newly out of prison and unemployed, really benefit from the right to marry someone of the same sex?"

    When it become her chance to marry, and the woman that she chooses is black, or homeless or HIV positive or newly out of prison, then she will not have the rights that the marriage license would give her. Not because she's black, but because she's a lesbian.

    Human rights do not have an order of importance. They are human rights. Race isn't more or less important than sexual orientation or any other attribute that should not be a contingency for whether or not you are conferred rights as a human being.

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    Nov 11, 2008 4:22 PM GMT
    Bigotry is as pan-demographic as gayness.

    Coming from a mixed race background I can say that I've had the best and the worst of both worlds.

    Growing up in the sixties just a little kid, my black cousin, who closely resembled me, would be confused with being my sister. Our faces were remarkably similar.Me: white looking with a big brown-red afro. Her: dark dark skin with big black afro. Seen together we made heads turn. It was often not pleasant.

    I went to Jamaica to visit family and the reverse discrimination was awful.

    The question isn't about the black community getting prop 8 passed (which is impossible given their voting totals), but rather why the black community hasn't addressed homophobia within itself, whereas the white community has made strides in doing so. White gays, realistically, can't make much of an argument for acceptance by petitioning the black community, but black gays can.

    A black man will listen to another black man, yes?

    God, I hate racial barriers, of any kind. Asian communities have this trouble too. They often perceive whites as sexually decadent and depraved. Why would they listen to a gay white man?

    -Doug
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:25 PM GMT
    BlkMuscleGent saidAlthough I voted NO on Prop 8, I made my choice solely on principle. (I feel little to no solidarity with the gay community at large.) As odd as this may sound, I found it difficult to jump on the NO-on-Prop-8 bandwagon with a group of gays, many of whom are white and middle- to upper-class, who show little interest in matters that do not affect them. (I discussed the issue with those close to me, but did not attend any rallies.) White gays comprise the most powerful sector within the gay community. Yet they rarely reach across racial and class lines. If anything, they abet racial and socioeconomic exclusion. Most of the gay white men I know act as though gay marriage is the our most critical battle when it clearly isn't. Black gay men are dying from AIDS in disproportionately high numbers, but the white gay community doesn't seem to notice. Gay college students of all races--our future leaders--struggle in college, trying to find an ideal balance that sometimes eludes them because of a lack of support. Gay youth centers, which should be well-funded since they cater to the next generation, are often forced to make do with little because affluent white gay men would rather throw expensive, self-indulgent galas. (I attended a GLAAD gala several years ago and felt quite uncomfortable.) I have observed countless examples of what I call selfish misprioritization.


    I have many black gay friends who feel the way I do. We feel ignored--even slighted--by the white gay community. And with respect to the black community at large, there exists an even greater disconnect. The black community is grappling with issues of great consequence, none of which the white gay community has shown interest in. It is, therefore, no surprise, to me at least, that the black community responded to Prop 8 in such an incisively negative manner.

    One more thing: I, too, am uncomfortable with the notion that discrimination on the basis of race and discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation are one and the same. Yes, there are similarities, but as Cannick's article suggests, there are also critical differences. Which is why I find it hard not to take the "separate water fountain" analogy as an affront.

    In closing, here's an example of gay racism at a Prop 8 protest:

    Geoffrey, a student at UCLA and regular Rod 2.0 reader, joined the massive protest outside the Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Westwood. Geoffrey was called the n-word at least twice.

    "It was like being at a Klan rally except the klansmen were wearing Abercrombie polos and Birkenstocks. YOU NIGGER, one man shouted at men. IF YOUR PEOPLE WANT TO CALL ME A FAGGOT, I WILL CALL YOU A NIGGER. Someone else said the same thing to me on the next block near the temple...me and my friend were walking, he is also gay but Korean, and a young WeHo clone said after last night the niggers better not come to West Hollywood if they knew what was BEST for them."


    Did the protest leaders check these undesirable elements? Have gay activists across America cautioned the gay community against such despicable behavior? If they haven't, they are being complicit and are not much better than these shameless bigots icon_evil.gif.

    I get where Cannick's comin' from.


    very true, I think the white gays should be reaching out and listening to our members of color. This also goes for those who are well off to listen to those who are not. We all bring the baggage that we grew up with in st8 society and brought to our LGBT community.
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:25 PM GMT
    coolHUSSEINdude saidNNJfitandbi said, "She doesn't understand civil rights. This is about quid pro quo for her, getting hers. What a paltry, ungenerous perspective she has!!!!"


    Exactly what I was thinking. I've said it before in another thread and I'll say it again here: It's funny that white gay Obama supporters and voters are all of a sudden racist for calling out the Black Community for their significant majority vote in support of banning gay marriage.


    Er, no. She's not after quid pro quo but rather pointing out that there are some issues that she-- and many other in the black community-- consider far more pressing than gay marriage and for her, she'd rather deal with those issues first. It's prioritisation, not quid pro quo.
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:28 PM GMT
    bgcat57 saidHuman rights do not have an order of importance. They are human rights. Race isn't more or less important than sexual orientation or any other attribute that should not be a contingency for whether or not you are conferred rights as a human being.
    I like that .. short and simple.
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:33 PM GMT
    This article is written by a bitter bigoted self loathing lesbian. I seriously find the whole thing offensive.

    and just so she knows there is a huge different from being complacent in the issue of gay marriage and actively voting to remove a right for another group of people. That is exactly what these people did. they took an active measure to remove a right from Gay people who live in california, this would be the same as a movement to ban interracial marriage and enact a miscegenation law. Grants thanks to Loving v. Virginia hat is not possible, and technically the words of loving v. virginia, are very much in the favor of Gay Marriage. I'm not asking for the black community to give us money, but I am asking them the be human beings and realizing what they are doing is on par with enacting slavery. yes that is a gross exageration, but at the end of the day both actions remove rights from people.

    This woman also has absolutely no conception of the english language. The words are civil rights, not religious rights. the black civil rights movement may have been intertwined with the church because that is where they found there strength, ironic in many ways, but it was still a fight for civil rights, thats right, rights that are controlled by the government not by the church. we are asking for civil marriage, which is a civil right, not religious marriage.

    Now on to the issue of black gays facing other issues and white middle - upper class gay wildly blowing money all over the place. AIDS heres and wild Idea CONDOMS. AIDS education in this country is huge and you have to be stupid to not know that condoms prevent HIV. maybe if black gays would stop being on the DL and admit to themselves and the black community what they really are this would not be such an issue, but instead they tend to hide. Maybe the reason the Gay movement has a largely white face is because we were willing to take risks and stop hiding.
    And just so you know those extravagant Galas cost a hell of a lot more to attend than they do to produce. one table at one of those gala events can cost 10K or more. Do you really think it costs that much to feed ten people? and its not just gays that do that I went to a Gala this summer for an organization that is all about protecting battered women, and that was probably the nicest Gala I have ever been to. But in the end all the extra money collected goes to the Charity and to doing good. Is there something wrong with enjoying a nice night out in exchange for a few thousand dollars, much of which is going to a great cause?
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:36 PM GMT
    Until the gay community can brush off it's overall image as white middle/upper class elitist, it will never be able to build the coalitions necessary to get it's 'agendas' through government. Many minorities like myself have always felt excluded from gay culture (even while being accepted in the mainstream). For me acceptance is often provisional, as in being part of a sexual fetish (wow you black guys are huge!). Of course, not every white gay man is an elitist. The timing seems bad. There are so many other pressing issues right now that the general public must see this as another 'luxury' item wanted by white gay men.
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:38 PM GMT


    We're still a bit confused/concerned. Will the black straight community listen to a white gay man?
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:41 PM GMT
    Not Likely
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    Nov 11, 2008 4:42 PM GMT


    Thanks. More opinions please.