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This is absolutely not criticism of America, which I think is a great country. (Edit); and coherent conservatism is a valid ideology which I respect.

I'm also aware that, my country at least, England, is a long way away from electing a black Prime Minister

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2008/nov/12/barackobama-race-abritishobama

Generally, however, America is more conservative than 'old' Europe with regards to.

1) Gay rights and civil unions
2) Abortion
3) Religion in politics
4) Provision of state welfare.

Why do you think this is? What's the cause of the cultural difference?

Too many hicks out in the sticks that are sheltered/isolated from information and education and get wacky religion and local culture stuffed into their heads to where they can't think for themselves any longer.

msw1Too many hicks out in the sticks that are sheltered/isolated from information and education and get wacky religion and local culture stuffed into their heads to where they can't think for themselves any longer.

Bingo! Often, that isolationism and willful ignorance is worn like a badge of honor. Hello, Sarah Palin.

Lost_In_Space saidThis is absolutely not a criticism of America, which I think is a great country.

I'm also aware that, my country at least, England, is a long way away from electing a black Prime Minister

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2008/nov/12/barackobama-race-abritishobama

Generally, however, America is more conservative than 'old' Europe with regards to.

1) Gay rights and civil unions
2) Abortion
3) Religion in politics
4) Provision of state welfare.

Why do you think this is? What's the cause of the cultural difference?

huh?

1) Not all of Europe have Civil Unions or Open Marriage. Austria, for one.
2) Abortions are easier to come by in the US than in Poland, Spain, Ireland, Finland and Germany.
3) You mean like Italy?
4) After WWII many Western European nations couldn't help but provide subsities to both their company's and their citizens. In the US we get a bad taste in our mouth from both. People usually don't like one or the other, but if you do one, you really need to do the other- thus nothing moves, until it has to. The east, being ex-communist, I hardly find this shocking.

DCErichuh?

1) Not all of Europe have Civil Unions or Open Marriage. Austria, for one.
2) Abortions are easier to come by in the US than in Poland, Spain, Ireland, Finland and Germany.
3) You mean like Italy?
4) After WWII many Western European nations couldn't help but provide subsities to both their company's and their citizens. In the US we get a bad taste in our mouth from both. People usually don't like one or the other, but if you do one, you really need to do the other- thus nothing moves, until it has to. The east, being ex-communist, I hardly find this shocking.

You just think the premise is false; and 'old' Europe and America are equally conservative?

Perhaps the problem is that it is not possible to generalise about Europe, even if you exclude the 'new' former USSR countries. Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Czech Republic...

If instead of 'old' Europe, I had said 'Northern' Europe though - Britain, France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries; the question works better.

So - why is America generally more conservative than Northern Europe generally?

Well, if you zoom into such a tiny area of Europe, you need to zoom into a similar way for the US... and then you get New England, and similarities.

You mean, like France? Where insulting the flag is a criminal offense, where the level of opposition to affirmative action would delight any card-carrying Republican, and about 20% of the student body attend religious schools (double the American percentage)? Or how bout Italy where the Catholic Church runs the show? Europe ISN'T Holland. Contrary to popular belief, I believe gay marriage is only legal in four countries in Europe; Belgium, Norway, the Netherlands, and Spain. Europe is miserably regressive on the issue of immigration. Ever heard those racist chants during Spanish soccer games? Ever heard of Silvio Berlusconi?

A "Gay Rights" Mecca? http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,733764-1,00.html

I think alot of people (especially Americans) believe this myth simply because women show their boobies on the beach "over there" and eat supper later in the evening...

I think it goes back to the puritanical roots in which this country was founded on.
There are many that hide behind religion for their reasons for their prejudice and oppression. I think many voted Barack Obama because he offered change from the past 8 years. People were afraid McCain would continue with GW's policies.

European societies are more developed, or rather they developed more slowly.

America (and Ireland, Australia) were former colonies which were founded under foreign rule, still express strong nationalism, were cut loose and developed into independent countries faster than all other societies.

Society developed faster than Americans could change their ideals, this scared them and they want to hang on to what was, for as long as possible out of fear of change.

I think some Americans are still subtly against Britain and fighting a war of independence in their minds. We just have to realize "wars" are so last century and wait for these people to die

We also need this your either with us or against us mentality to die out

AMT87 saidEuropean societies are more developed, or rather they developed more slowly.

According to that theory India should be the most liberal country on Earth, followed by Iraq and Egypt.

DCEric saidWell, if you zoom into such a tiny area of Europe, you need to zoom into a similar way for the US... and then you get New England, and similarities.

Don't forget Northern Europe is huge. Well over one hundred million...

That's probably the answer actually! If America was just New England and New York City it'd be less socially conservative than Holland.

There is still a divide though, if you put social and sexual morality to one side, Europe (and you probably can say all of Europe) is far more left wing when it comes to economics. America is economically conservative compared to Europe.

Although, perhaps this has just changed with the banks bail out...

I observe that USA is a land of extremes, in every sense.

beaujangle saidI observe that USA is a land of extremes, in every sense.

Such as Communism, and Fascism?

Europe had hundreds of years of wars based on religious differences. Century after centruty, whole swaths of the population were regularly decimated, which held them back intellectually, since some smart and otherwise productive minds were snuffed out, agriculturally--since many of those who would otherwise provide farm labor died--and with many other effects as well. And since most European countries evolved to have a state religion (many still do), scorn for the rulers frequently translated into scorn for the symbols of religion, which were mixed up with symbols of the state.

We had none of this. Despite the best efforts of the Loony Right, we don't have a state religion, so there has been no legacy of hating the state and therefore its religion. And aside from the Civil War, which was secular, we've had very little warfare on our little slice of the planet. So our appetite for war is still (unfortunately) large, because our institutional memory is that 1) we WIN wars, and 2) we wind up benefitting from wars, as we did hugely from both World Wars.

This is one reason why losing in Vietnam was so traumatic. It went against everything we told ourselves. We didn't win that war (and to this day the Loonies think we were stabbed in the back, which is also what Hitler told the Germans in the 1920s), and we certainly didn't benefit from it. It started the inflation that spiraled out of control under Carter.

DCEric -

You are right on a lot of points, Europe is no utopia for gays or in general and I know just as many ignorant people and religious nuts populate cities as they do rural areas.

apples and oranges.

DCEric said

AMT87 saidEuropean societies are more developed, or rather they developed more slowly.

According to that theory India should be the most liberal country on Earth, followed by Iraq and Egypt.

I'm going to thank technology, particularly during the enlightenment/ Renaissance followed by the industrial revolution, movable type, establishment of universities, influx of other cultures, a much greater push towards the economic benefits of diplomacy following on from WWII establishment of the UN, EEC etc.

Basically Europe has had a long time to learn from it's mistakes

Not to mention we ruled India for 50 years not the other way round.

msw1 saidDCEric -

You are right on a lot of points, Europe is no utopia for gays or in general and I know just as many ignorant people and religious nuts populate cities as they do rural areas.

Regarding social and sexual morality, Europe is divided. The formerly 'Protestant' North of Europe as well as France is socially liberal and, therefore, generally gay friendly. UK, France, Germany, Scandinavia.

Northern Europe is a very large area, more than 100 million people.

All of Europe (old, new, north and south) is less economically conservative than America. I.e. free health care is the norm and taxation pays for it.

I don't even want to suggest 'conservative bad' and 'liberal good', I'm just wondering what the cause of the difference is.

McGay said

msw1Too many hicks out in the sticks that are sheltered/isolated from information and education and get wacky religion and local culture stuffed into their heads to where they can't think for themselves any longer.

Bingo! Often, that isolationism and willful ignorance is worn like a badge of honor. Hello, Sarah Palin.

Exactly. If you look at progressive states or even progressive cities in the United States, they're all around major population centers -- lots of people coming and going, dynamic economies, international commerce, tourism and universities. There's an influx of new people and ideas. In the red states, marooned in the middle of the country, it's a backwater -- the same people and the same ideas reigning unchallenged and unquestioned year after year and nothing ever changes.

JESUS

all the annoying conservative bible huggers got chased out of england and settled here, using the bible as the law and moral code..blowwsss

Funny the founding forefathers of America, were Pammie Puritans, who left England to start a new life in the new Americas, as they though England ha become to corrupt and liberal.

Try to go to college if you are not of the upper class if you think Europe is so liberal.

The "founding fathers" of America were far from conservative, but radical and liberal contrary to what modern religious groups say. In fact the U.S. is considered the first modern liberal state ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiberalismThe first modern liberal state was the United States of America[8], founded on the principle that "all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."[9] Pioneers of liberalism such as Adam Smith conceptualized free markets, free trade, invisible hand, spontaneous order, and claimed that they lead to prosperity. Liberals argued that economic systems based on free markets are more efficient and generate more prosperity.[10]

Here is a history of liberalism in the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_States
And here is a history of Conservatism in the U.S. and how if developed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_the_United_States

Colbert_Hussein_Nation said

McGay said

msw1Too many hicks out in the sticks that are sheltered/isolated from information and education and get wacky religion and local culture stuffed into their heads to where they can't think for themselves any longer.

Bingo! Often, that isolationism and willful ignorance is worn like a badge of honor. Hello, Sarah Palin.

Exactly. If you look at progressive states or even progressive cities in the United States, they're all around major population centers -- lots of people coming and going, dynamic economies, international commerce, tourism and universities. There's an influx of new people and ideas. In the red states, marooned in the middle of the country, it's a backwater -- the same people and the same ideas reigning unchallenged and unquestioned year after year and nothing ever changes.

Wrong.

As if urban dwellers don't have wacky religions and superstitions...

"Scientology," "organic foods," "lysenkoism,"homeopathic medicine," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

The fact is that most "new ideas" are wrong. New ideas are the fodder of science: in that process, they are tested empirically and the vast majority are rejected. However, the lunatics of the left tend to eschew the hard part and move directly to religion-ization and legislation. The result has killed hundreds of millions of people.

A little conservatism is a good thing. People who actually work the land and make real things are steeped in empiricism. (Though they may be a little weak on theory.) They are resistant to wacky new ideas for a reason.

I suppose one could make the argument that city dwellers are more steeped in the empiricism of social relations, as opposed to physical reality. There would be far more opportunities for social experimentation and evaluation in cities. (Of course, it doesn't seem to matter how many times socialism is tested to failure. Someone always wants to try it again.)

But back to the original question: my observations, though limited, are that Europeans are more conservative than Americans in many ways. I've worked with a fair number of them, on both continents. There seems to be a certain "can't do" attitude over there. For example, I've worked on projects where my European colleagues literally sat around doing nothing for weeks, waiting for factory reps to come set up their (relatively simple) equipment. They were shocked when Americans arrived on site, opened boxes, and started working. One time, I almost got dog-piled on, when a pump arrived with the wrong end fitting. I cut it off and put the correct one on. "How do you know to do that? Shouldn't you send it back to be done at the factory?"

...

...
Hmm... need a succinct conclusion here, but I'm tired.

But back to the original question: my observations, though limited, are that Europeans are more conservative than Americans in many ways. I've worked with a fair number of them, on both continents. There seems to be a certain "can't do" attitude over there. For example, I've worked on projects where my European colleagues literally sat around doing nothing for weeks, waiting for factory reps to come set up their (relatively simple) equipment. They were shocked when Americans arrived on site, opened boxes, and started working. One time, I almost got dog-piled on, when a pump arrived with the wrong end fitting. I cut it off and put the correct one on. "How do you know to do that? Shouldn't you send it back to be done at the factory?"
Hmm... need a succinct conclusion here, but I'm tired.[/quote]


I agree; I see that Americans have a 'can do attitude'; even our famous Australian scientist, Alan Trounson, who has moved to California last year to head a big stem cell organisation said that a few weeks ago!

[quote][Not to mention we ruled India for 50 years not the other way round.
[/quote]

250 years more like!

American is also FAR more conservative than Europe when it comes to nudity. Janet Jackson shows a tit and people think it's the Holocaust for children. Meanwhile, there's a magazine in Germany FOR TEENS featuring a full frontal naked teen guy and girl in every magazine. No one cares. Fucking stupid America.

capitalism = corporate slaves = conservatives = U.S.

Nature of the beast.

I actually just read an interesting article saying that America's demographics have shifted and from now on it will be more liberal like Northern Europe

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=c261828d-7387-4af8-9ee7-8b2922ea6df0

Personally I don't think there's going to be much a shift regarding 'sexual morality' (i.e. the post-christian family model), but it's an interesting thought.

Alpha13 saidTry to go to college if you are not of the upper class if you think Europe is so liberal.

Only England (note not Scotland) charges for higher education out of all the Northern European countries.

If you watch a movie in America they'll edit out a lot of the swear words, and sex scenes

Watch the same movie in Britain and the swearing(when it adds to the storyline) and sex will be there but they'll have edited out the violence and in particular the gun violence.

It's just different standards different audiences

Same with drugs, I know someone had a kids book published in the states with dollars and E on the front. There was no question of it being published with the same cover in the UK.

Colbert_Hussein_Nation said Exactly. If you look at progressive states or even progressive cities in the United States, they're all around major population centers -- lots of people coming and going, dynamic economies, international commerce, tourism and universities. There's an influx of new people and ideas. In the red states, marooned in the middle of the country, it's a backwater -- the same people and the same ideas reigning unchallenged and unquestioned year after year and nothing ever changes

That statement may have some truth to it, but does not give a full picture. According to the latest election survey, the most liberal state in the US (based on voters who self identified as liberal) was Vermont, which according to census numbers, is also the most rural state in the US (based on percentage of the population not living in either an urban or suburban area.) The largest city in Vermont has only 39,000 people, with only 19,000 in the second largest.
It is a very rural and very liberal state.

ActiveAndFit saidThe "founding fathers" of America were far from conservative, but radical and liberal contrary to what modern religious groups say. In fact the U.S. is considered the first modern liberal state ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiberalismThe first modern liberal state was the United States of America[8], founded on the principle that "all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."[9] Pioneers of liberalism such as Adam Smith conceptualized free markets, free trade, invisible hand, spontaneous order, and claimed that they lead to prosperity. Liberals argued that economic systems based on free markets are more efficient and generate more prosperity.[10]

Here is a history of liberalism in the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_States
And here is a history of Conservatism in the U.S. and how if developed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_the_United_States

Economically the U.S is one of the most liberal countries, but economic liberalism shouldn't be confused with social liberalism.

Our unique history on social conservatism was established on Puritanical ideology. Everything was strict and in accordance with religious law, including death penalties. Puratanism is what led to the hysteria known as the Salem Witch Trials, which we all know disregarded science and logic.

That is why we have to continue today with issues such as sex, alcohol, race and religion. It's engrained in our American DNA to have these conflictions.

zayah saidcapitalism = corporate slaves = conservatives = U.S.

Nature of the beast.

Europe, Canada, Australia even China are very capitalistic, but not conservative in the manner being discussed here. I think the founding of the nation by Puritans, and the fact that many people who emigrated to the US were escaping religious persecution is probably the main reason for the USAs conservative nature.

SurrealLifeI think the founding of the nation by Puritans, and the fact that many people who emigrated to the US were escaping religious persecution is probably the main reason for the USAs conservative nature.

BINGO!

In general, Europe is more liberal than the USA because of its history which was already pointed out due to puritanism. More recently though is the demonization of liberal ideas starting with President Reagan who blamed everything on liberals and repeatedly so. Than there is the modern evangelical movement in the US which is much stronger than in Europe. Old religious ideas in Europe are still here but the people do not pay much attention to the religious leadership and live their lives the way they see fit.

The main difference between Europe and the US is that Europe has a social contract with the people. Even the Conservative parties believe in and enforce that social contract when they are in power. In the USA, a social contract like this is seen as socialism which is illogically equated with scary communism and the post WWII obsession in the USA with anti communism still exists.

I don't think the US is really any more conservative than European counties.

We just give more weight and power to more rural and suburban populations. In Europe more liberal cities lead the way through government.

judoguy saidEconomically the U.S is one of the most liberal countries, but economic liberalism shouldn't be confused with social liberalism.

I was specifically talking about the founding fathers. While early puritan settlers may have been pious, at the time when America broke with England, the founding fathers were liberal and not tied so strongly to religion for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_StatesLiberalism in the United States is a broad political and philosophical mindset, favoring individual liberty, and opposing restrictions on liberty, whether they come from established religion, from government regulation, or from the existing class structure.[1] Liberalism in the United States takes various forms, ranging from classical liberalism to social liberalism to neoliberalism.

In the founding of the country, conservatives were those who were tied closely to "Mother England" The "founding fathers" of course were not. And the founding fathers were not as religious as many people think - that is pretty much a myth. They very much did NOT want a state church like England did. The mood was very much as little interference of the government in daily life as possible.

Here is also a thread on Was the US founded as a Christian Nation ..
http://www.realjock.com/gayforums/200557/

The conservatism we have now is a recently developed.

The conservatism we have now is a recently developed.

The USA has gone through periodic periods of conservatism, often in reaction to tremendous social upheaval. Often accompanying this conservatism is evangelical Christianity as well as paranoia about "outsiders". In the roaring 20's we had Billy Sunday and Aimee Semple MacPherson, prohibition and the curtailment of immigration.

After the trauma of the Great Depression and WWII, the 1950s brought us the "red" scare and McCarthy's witchhunt of communists. The US was a very conservative country in the 1950s.

Following the Vietnam war and civil rights movement of the 1960s came the "silent majority" then "moral majority" of the Nixon and Reagan presidencies.

The USA has always been a country of contradictions. A strong belief in the individual freedoms of people, yet a country that seems to expect conformity and often demonizes those that seem different, whether it be blacks, jews, gays, feminists or (god forbid) socialists.

That is why I find Amercian history and politics so interesting.

Alpha13 saidTry to go to college if you are not of the upper class if you think Europe is so liberal.

It's easy numb nuts.

Personally I think it's because the US never had the history of cultures like the Greeks, Romans, etc. who were much more rational about human behavior and sexuality.

The US was the escape for the Puritans who were dissatisfied by some of the practices of the Church of England. While the US government and founding fathers may want to have avoided a church controlled state, you can't deny that the Puritans settled here bringing with them some really conservative ideals.

America was founded by religious fundamentalists (okay, maybe that's too strong but damn if those puritans didn't have their issues) who helped wipe out the indigenous population while having a slave-based economy. One of the characteristic traits of the US is this idea "endless opportunity" "over there", i.e., this country was founded by people who were both naive and ruthless, who also couldn't deal with their own problems and who were encouraged, by the gov., to pack up and spread across a continent their number didn't warrent. "Civilization without learning a damn thing" [sic]. To this day, the US is a land which champions choice in the mundane, banality in the important, and "civilization" without any of the ideas the Enlightenment when it comes to matters of social functioning. How else could you explain why there are no demands for universal health care while the US spends more on military expenditures than the rest of the world COMBINED.

As others have said, the US is now a good century plus removed from war on its soil which is why Americans naively champion militaristic hubris AND (incredulously) play the victim. Add to this the fact that the US has never addressed its history of genocide, slavery, and apartheid in any adult manner combined with the peculiar position religion/religiousity occupies and you have a strange mix. All of this adds to the mix which makes America if not "conservative", then certainly "different" from Europe. Again thanks to that good ole' puritanism, sex/sexuality remains coy at best, repressed at worst (which is why we have the biggest porn industry) while ammo is only a Walmart away and a nipple is scandalous but not a Hollywood franchise celebrating human torture (the Saw series).

Anyway, I'd say the biggest difference is that the US is the place where (excluding Asia) technical innovation occurs while social policy remains somewhat mired in the Middle Ages. We expect our politicians to be "just like us" while also anticipating they could care less what their constituents think. Our "news" is nothing if not entertaining and certainly un-informing; education is considered a virture but is privitized or extorted out of people; gays are expected to be "normal" or else shut the hell up and be glad we're not sent to the camps...in a word, a great deal is different about the US versus Europe.

Okay, rant over...2 cents.

Jackal69 saidAmerica was founded by religious fundamentalists (okay, maybe that's too strong but damn if those puritans didn't have their issues) who helped wipe out the indigenous population while having a slave-based economy. One of the characteristic traits of the US is this idea "endless opportunity" "over there", i.e., this country was founded by people who were both naive and ruthless, who also couldn't deal with their own problems and who were encouraged, by the gov., to pack up and spread across a continent their number didn't warrent. "Civilization without learning a damn thing" [sic]. To this day, the US is a land which champions choice in the mundane, banality in the important, and "civilization" without any of the ideas the Enlightenment when it comes to matters of social functioning. How else could you explain why there are no demands for universal health care while the US spends more on military expenditures than the rest of the world COMBINED.

As others have said, the US is now a good century plus removed from war on its soil which is why Americans naively champion militaristic hubris AND (incredulously) play the victim. Add to this the fact that the US has never addressed its history of genocide, slavery, and apartheid in any adult manner combined with the peculiar position religion/religiousity occupies and you have a strange mix. All of this adds to the mix which makes America if not "conservative", then certainly "different" from Europe. Again thanks to that good ole' puritanism, sex/sexuality remains coy at best, repressed at worst (which is why we have the biggest porn industry) while ammo is only a Walmart away and a nipple is scandalous but not a Hollywood franchise celebrating human torture (the Saw series).

Anyway, I'd say the biggest difference is that the US is the place where (excluding Asia) technical innovation occurs while social policy remains somewhat mired in the Middle Ages. We expect our politicians to be "just like us" while also anticipating they could care less what their constituents think.

Okay, rant over...2 cents.

^Complete agreement!

I see you answered this for me. Thanks.

Because the Europeans kicked out the trouble makers (Puritans).

One of things to understand about US politics that few Europeans truly understand is how narrow the spectrum of US politics really is. The Ideological differences even between President-Elect Obama and President Bush aren't all that great, frankly. The US has no true conservatives and the socialists it has are mostly limited to academics (most of whom have never lifted anything heavier than a textbook in their lives and thus their support for socialist ideals are very superficial), migrant workers, and environmentalists. The vast, vast majority are all just a mish-mash of types of liberals.

For example, a true conservative wouldn't pay much respect to the idea of Separation of Church and State. But even Gary Bauer, arguably the most ardent religious conservative national politician in the US respects that principle, though he would naturally define it differently than the more leftist liberals. Even he has no desire to establish a Church of the United States and make sure public servants are loyal and active members of it. There are politicians in Europe who are still inclined to do that, especially in places like Italy, Austria, Spain, Ireland, and to a lesser extent, France. Now I'm not so foolish as to believe that it is at all likely to happen in any of those countries but you simply don't even see it at all in the US.

BTW, parts of Europe are beginning to look like the US ideologically. the UK is the perfect example. Thatcher abandoned the Tory's old Burkean conservative roots and Blair's Labour abandoned its old socialist roots. Nowadays, your two main parties look very similar to the basic ideology of the Democratic and Republican Parties. And frankly the result has been a gigantic success for the UK. Most other European nations look with great envy at the UK's economy. Though things are hardly perfect, and of course, never will be.

Once that is understood, one needs to look at the history of the US, and you will begin to understand the cultural elements that shows what, you would call today conservative, even though it is actually liberal. One must remember that the US has a very strong frontier culture that remains to this day. I grew up in northern Minnesota with a heavy Scandinavian culture. (To the point that my family even to this day, when I go back home, eats Lutefisk at Christmas. Ugh, I still say that dish is a form of torture and I keep threatening to report her to Amnesty International for making us eat it.) The cultural history of the US is of the immigrant really. And most of those immigrants came from Europe (though there are huge exceptions, slaves, etc.). Those immigrants came to the US and settled largely, though not exclusively in rural areas and were able to establish better lives for themselves due to their own hard work. My great grandfather built the farm house I grew up in. He didn't get any subsidies to do so. He just built his house and farmed, much like his ancestors had back in Sweden. The government, for the most part, left him alone to do his work, and he was happier for it. When he thought of government, he thought of people who liked to meddle in other people's affairs, caused civil strife, and generally mucked things up. He just wanted to be left alone, with his farm and family. If the farm had a bad year he didn't instinctively look to the government for a bailout. He regarded it as his job as father of the family to provide and would have been insulted if the government came in and handed out money to him, and if he accepted it, he would have been ashamed. During the Depression my Grandfather did have to accept some governmental assistance, and he was deeply ashamed about it. He regarded himself as a failure, but he was grateful. As a result the family wasn't forced off the farm, but he also made sure that when better times came, he donated every penny that he had received to charitable organizations. Lastly, during Prohibition, by grandfather shot several rumrunners coming in from Canada. He didn't let the government take care of it. From his perspective, a bunch of thieving bastards were trespassing on his land, so he took care of the problem himself.

Frankly, I don't think my family's history was all that different from the average American family. The most coherent cultural element is one of self-sufficiency. And that is antithetical to the notion of a welfare state. It also has strong libertarian elements. I'd guess that my grandfather, if he discovered that the neighbors were gay, even though he was a very strict Lutheran, wouldn't have cared all that much. As long as they left his family alone, he would do the same.

As a result of this frontier culture two things developed, libertarian values, and a belief that government, ideally, ought to be minimalist in nature. I know that at times American culture doesn't seem all that libertarian, especially with things like gay rights. But, overall, I'd say that is mistake. There has never really been a strong movement even by religious conservatives to have the government pass a law forbidding companies from granting marriage benefits to gay couples. If the US didn't have a libertarian culture, that wouldn't be true. Yes, religious groups protest such companies, but they aren't looking for a governmental ban on it. Thus it still falls in a libertarian mould. I have never heard even the most religious conservative politician advocate (back when sodomy was still prohibited) that the police ought to be breaking into houses of known homosexuals in order to catch them in acts of sodomy. It wouldn't even occur to them to advocate such a thing. However, that doesn't make them tolerant of homosexuality, of course. Libertarianism and tolerance are different concepts.

The abortion debate tends to get distorted and has been highly politicized, and thus the central points that religious conservatives have about it have gotten lost amongst the partisan debate. If you look before the Supreme Court unilaterally declared that abortion shall forever be a right, conservatives were not advocating a national ban on it. It was a state issue. Religious conservatives were more than willing to tolerate abortion (albeit with gritted teeth) when state legislatures permitted it. It was when the Supreme Court took the issue out of the people's hands and decided the issue for themselves, that abortion became a highly political issue for religious conservatives. Personally, I'd argue that this is merely an extension of that same libertarian value. It was only when the government interceded and took the freedom of deciding the issue from them people that the issue was taken up. BTW, the same goes for the gay debate. Both Democratic AND Republican controlled state legislatures were removing the sodomy bans before the Supreme Court stepped in. That, and when the MA state supreme court declared gay marriage to be a right, and thus the people have no say, is when the gay debate became extremely politicized and you began to see things like Prop 8 on the ballot.

Lastly, but certainly not least, of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council, which is the ONLY one not to have a secret police agency? The answer is, of course, the United States. Once again, the US's libertarian roots shows through. The scandals of the Bush Administration's surveillance programs would be a non issue in most of Europe. The UK government, which I certainly would hardly call anything even remotely close to authoritarian, still routinely spies on its own people, and for the most part, the people don't sem to mind. Europeans trust their governments, and don't mind such intrusiveness. Even the most innocuous monitoring in the US was the cause of great scandal.

As you can see the more "conservative" roots of the US tends to be a result of its frontier history. But I'm not sure it is really all that conservative. Remember what I said at the beginning. The US is a liberal nation, not a conservative one.

I'd argue that Europe tends to be more conservative than the US. When change needs to occur, it takes a lot more momentum to get most Europeans to change than the US. Case in point, socialist economics started dying in the late 70's and France, Italy, and to a lesser extent Germany still embrace it, even though their neighbors who have let go of their most socialist policies are seeing much more robust economic growth. It took the almost complete destruction of Europe in WWII, to motivate Europe's previous major shift in economic and cultural values.

Lastly, remember that the US isn't monolithic. Just like Europe it has a very widely diverse culture, even though most Americans would like to deny that and most Europeans fail to realize it. Where I grew up, if I moved to Vancouver, BC, I bet I'd experience less culture shock than if I moved to Houston, TX, or Miami, FL. I might even go so far as to say that Boston has more in common with places like Dublin, or London, than Phoenix, or Atlanta.

HockeytigerLastly, remember that the US isn't monolithic. Just like Europe it has a very widely diverse culture, even though most Americans would like to deny that and most Europeans fail to realize it.

Actually I think that's key. I'm sure parts of America are far less conservative than my part of England.

Too much of the population not living near major cities where they get a proper education and exposed to different cultures and ideas.

I also think its because in Europe religion is not a way of life, its a personal relationship between one person and god. Most are Catholics and i've personally found as crazy as the right wing Catholics can be, most Catholics are pretty liberal. It's the Christians (Evangilicals) that have the extremist views, not to say some Catholics don't. Most of europe is Catholic. Could be another reason why.

In the U.S. the Christians seem to act more like a cult, They're so big on passing there agendas I don't even feel god plays a role anymore. For them its like a power trip.

This is why......

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i think this is an interesting question but the answer lies in the fact that the US is one large nation, being compared to the many smaller nations of n/w europe. collectively, they seem more liberal than the US, but a closer look reveals the liberal attitudes ebb and flow issue to issue, nation to nation. example: assisted suicide in ireland or england vs netherlands. another: open immigration policies in france vs sweden. even homosexuality is merely tolerated in some areas, but truly accepted in others.

I agree with those who point to america's puritan/pilgrim roots -- that mindset is at our core, with positive and negative results. we may be suspicious of "sin" but we also believe in the american dream, work hard and stay out of trouble and you can succeed, aka the protestant work ethic. is that a common belief in socialist europe? not so much.

interesting thread.

I don't get this whole the first immigrants here made the difference. Did the majority of those groups land in New England. The current core of liberal America?

evilgemini saidi think this is an interesting question but the answer lies in the fact that the US is one large nation, being compared to the many smaller nations of n/w europe. collectively, they seem more liberal than the US, but a closer look reveals the liberal attitudes ebb and flow issue to issue, nation to nation. example: assisted suicide in ireland or england vs netherlands. another: open immigration policies in france vs sweden. even homosexuality is merely tolerated in some areas, but truly accepted in others.

I agree with those who point to america's puritan/pilgrim roots -- that mindset is at our core, with positive and negative results. we may be suspicious of "sin" but we also believe in the american dream, work hard and stay out of trouble and you can succeed, aka the protestant work ethic. is that a common belief in socialist europe? not so much.

interesting thread.

I don't think I agree, as you say, America is more economically conservative than all of Europe, so in that way it is possible to compare America as a whole with Europe.

On top of that I would say that there is such a thing as 'socially liberal' Northern European culture; a culture that is only parallelled in parts of the US and amongst people who have had a liberal education.

So Northern Europe can be lumped together and compared with the conservative areas of America.

It's a complicated one though and whether there is a Northern European culture is very controversial. I'd say yes, A LOT of people would say no.

Because of the puritans who were nasty religious zealots we have a tradition of conservatism in this county. They did not even let their followers celebrate Xmas of all things. I think they are nastier than our Mormons but not by much. They got chased our of England and came to this country. I think Oliver Cromwell was a puritan who was so hated that they dug him up a year after he died and hanged him!

COmale saidBecause of the puritans who were nasty religious zealots we have a tradition of conservatism in this county. They did not even let their followers celebrate Xmas of all things. I think they are nastier than our Mormons but not by much. They got chased our of England and came to this country. I think Oliver Cromwell was a puritan who was so hated that they dug him up a year after he died and hanged him!

That still doesn't answer the fact that the majority of those people's moved into the core of this countries liberal belt. Shouldn't that now be the core of social conservatism?

GQjock said, "This is why.....".

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I bet I know who she voted for....

DCEric said, "I don't get this whole the first immigrants here made the difference. Did the majority of those groups land in New England. The current core of liberal America?"


It wasn't just about how it began, but what later developed. Jonathan Edwards began the Great Awakening in 1734, which is what we would consider now, Fundamental Christianity or Evangelism. He started the idea of having very fervent sermons that fed on fear in order to motivate people into a religious based lifestyle. Ironically, his fire-breathing sermons were held in Massachussetts.

DC I disagree as I believe the puritan beliefs are ingrained in our country as a whole but are strongest in less populated areas. The reason why the NE is more liberal is that the bulk of the population resides in cities which tend to be more socially liberal. Just look at VA - its used to be the bible belt but the recent vote trending liberal seems to be a result of the growth of the eastern cities and suburbs.

COmale saidDC I disagree as I believe the puritan beliefs are ingrained in our country as a whole but are strongest in less populated areas. The reason why the NE is more liberal is that the bulk of the population resides in cities which tend to be more socially liberal. Just look at VA - its used to be the bible belt but the recent vote trending liberal seems to be a result of the growth of the eastern cities and suburbs.

Uhh.. Urban. Maine? New Hampshire? Vermont?

You are also describing what we call in mapping a MAUPing* issue. Virgina hasn't become more liberal, certain counties in the DC area have. At the same time, Missouri isn't more conservative, St. Louis and KC are more than liberal enough. Utah conservative? Yes. Salt Lake City? Not so much. You are confusing presidential elections with regional mindset.

*Map Area Unit Problem: The idea that some, such as States, geographies are arbitrary ways of carving up a larger region and that they can be deliberately, or accidentally, drawn in such a way that they provide an unrealistic way to view map data. The best deliberate of its use is gerrymandering in the US House of Representatives. The best accidental way is the Al Gore/Bush election.

Alpha13 saidTry to go to college if you are not of the upper class if you think Europe is so liberal.

the KU Leuven (a very well respected college, ranking #61 on the QS top university list) costs €540 per academy year. If you are unable to afford that, the government will help you, and your tuition will cost you €80.

If you dont qualify for government aid but still cant afford it, they will lower your tuition to €317,30.

Please be well informed before you comment next time.

(obviously these numbers are not including room and boarding, and textbooks).

I think I've got my answer...

1) Religion, lots of posters have mentioned this. Most of Northern Europe is post-christian in the same way large swathes of New York etc are, but a lot of places in the US are still religious.

2) Rural demography. More people live in the countryside than in the cities in the US.

3) American capitalism is influenced by factors 1) and 2) meaning that there is not much support for social welfare.


* A mistake in the original question was treating 'Europe' as a homogenous block and 'America' as a homogenous block. Huge swathes of America are less conservative than Europe i.e. New York.

america's equivalent to eddie?

America, post race, but not post christian.



In Europe, it's the other way round.

I don't believe America actually is more conservative than America. Certainly, I don't believe the UK is less conservative than the United States.


"Generally, however, America is more conservative than 'old' Europe with regards to.

1) Gay rights and civil unions"

I would say that the overall breakdown of member states in the EU runs about the same as the US on this issue. With the exception of the UK most states don't offer immigration rights to domestic partners.

"2) Abortion"

No material difference.

3) Religion in politics

This is a matter of style not substance. Blair was more of a lunatic than Bush.

4) Provision of state welfare.

See knife crime statistics in London. I think the US approach to this makes more sense.

Why do you think this is? What's the cause of the cultural difference?[/quote]


I don't think there are big differences. The difference is all in style and not in substance. All it takes is an economic shock and you see rampant Xenophobia and insanity run wild in Europe. To my mind the Brown government just as eagerly needs to go as the Bush government.

Ursamajor

I made a mistake by counting all of Europe as one entity...

Legal recognition of gay unions is normal in all of Northern Europe, but as far as I'm aware not in the US.

Religion plays a much bigger role in American politics than Northern Europe. When I was watching the US election, I was amazed to see campaigning in churches etc etc

Blair is religious, but everyone thought he was nuts for it. When Sarah Palin says she's waiting for God to tell her to run for president, that seems normal. Also the 'Muslim' issue is a bigger deal in the US. When asked if Obama was a Muslim, John McCain replied, 'no he is decent family man.'

Abortion/the morning after pill is free on the National health service in England and many European countries. There is no real movement to ban it.

In Europe the norm is free health care/free higher education/free access to law.

There are exceptions, but generally Northern Europe is less conservative in social and sexual terms and all of Europe is less conservative in economic terms.

Brown's rubbish. Damp squib

Sorry, I lived in Italy for 7 years. Don't see Europe from a Nordic or even English point of view.

Legal recognition of gay unions is legal in many cities and states in the US and marriage is legal in two states (if I am not mistaken). It was three before the current boondoggle.

Access to gay unions in France or other so-called liberal countries (I know because it is a matter of intense personal interest) is a confusing maze of conflicting regulations and immigration laws that are mostly xenophobic in intent.

Religion plays a much smaller role in the politics of a part of the EU, just as it does in a part of the United States. Parts of the EU (even parts of the UK) have ongoing religious wars where people are being slaughtered or were being slaughtered in the very recent past (as in ten years ago).

Muslims are not popular or accepted in Europe (Danish cartoon story, French virgin trial, etc.)

I believe the Irish want to have a referendum on Abortion, it is a constant issue in Italy and Spain.

Excuse me but free health care is not free. The money doesn't just fly out of monkey's asses. You pay taxes for that health care, and the standards are abysmal. My friends in London who can afford it get their health care in New York or Geneva.

Tony Blair was no less dangerous than George Bush or Sarah Palin, and neither is Gordon Brown. Those nutty guys in Poland had some mighty nice religious convictions (especially about Gay people) upon which they wanted to run their country.

Free access to law? Tell that to the boys who went to jail in the Spanner travesty in the UK.

It depends on your definition of conservative economics. Having done business in Europe for a good long while (27 years now) I am sort of shocked at the basic level of corruption.

Northern Europe isn't conservative socially or sexually if you happen to be another Northern European. If your moroccan or a scientologist then you might find it less tolerant than say Santa Monica California.

I sort of think your thesis speaks for itself. You are fairly emblematic of how most Europeans and most UK citizens in particular like to view America.

I know people from Gloucestershire who have never been to London, their opinions aren't significantly more informed than any given luddite one might find in Lancaster Pennsylvania. Likewise, there are a good number of MP's and Lords who have just as little candlepower as Sarah Palin.

People in glass houses should stick to shrimp cocktail.

Lost_In_Space saidUrsamajor

I made a mistake by counting all of Europe as one entity...

Legal recognition of gay unions is normal in all of Northern Europe, but as far as I'm aware not in the US.

Religion plays a much bigger role in American politics than Northern Europe. When I was watching the US election, I was amazed to see campaigning in churches etc etc

Blair is religious, but everyone thought he was nuts for it. When Sarah Palin says she's waiting for God to tell her to run for president, that seems normal. Also the 'Muslim' issue is a bigger deal in the US. When asked if Obama was a Muslim, John McCain replied, 'no he is decent family man.'

Abortion/the morning after pill is free on the National health service in England and many European countries. There is no real movement to ban it.

In Europe the norm is free health care/free higher education/free access to law.

There are exceptions, but generally Northern Europe is less conservative in social and sexual terms and all of Europe is less conservative in economic terms.

Brown's rubbish. Damp squib

DCEric said

Lost_In_Space saidThis is absolutely not a criticism of America, which I think is a great country.

I'm also aware that, my country at least, England, is a long way away from electing a black Prime Minister

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2008/nov/12/barackobama-race-abritishobama

Generally, however, America is more conservative than 'old' Europe with regards to.

1) Gay rights and civil unions
2) Abortion
3) Religion in politics
4) Provision of state welfare.

Why do you think this is? What's the cause of the cultural difference?

huh?

1) Not all of Europe have Civil Unions or Open Marriage. Austria, for one.
2) Abortions are easier to come by in the US than in Poland, Spain, Ireland, Finland and Germany.
3) You mean like Italy?
4) After WWII many Western European nations couldn't help but provide subsities to both their company's and their citizens. In the US we get a bad taste in our mouth from both. People usually don't like one or the other, but if you do one, you really need to do the other- thus nothing moves, until it has to. The east, being ex-communist, I hardly find this shocking.

Ummm......as a cultural anthropologist who has lived and spent massive amounts of time in Spain you are wrong about abortions....they are available with no limitations.

Also, Spain has approved gay marriage/adoption/inheritance with no distinction to that of heterosexual marriage.......and this is remarkable precisely because 30 years ago homosexuals were still being imprisoned. So.....your flip dismissal of "not all European countries have civil unions" doesn´t really get to the socio-political aspects of this massive change throughout most of Europe.

Also....I certainly don´t get a bad taste in my mouth with the idea of socialism.....in fact, let´s get to work on that.....socialized medicine would actually bring us into the modern world instead of letting people die from preventable and treatable diseases in the supposed most advanced country in the world!

jprichva saidEurope had hundreds of years of wars based on religious differences. Century after centruty, whole swaths of the population were regularly decimated, which held them back intellectually, since some smart and otherwise productive minds were snuffed out, agriculturally--since many of those who would otherwise provide farm labor died--and with many other effects as well. And since most European countries evolved to have a state religion (many still do), scorn for the rulers frequently translated into scorn for the symbols of religion, which were mixed up with symbols of the state.

We had none of this. Despite the best efforts of the Loony Right, we don't have a state religion, so there has been no legacy of hating the state and therefore its religion. And aside from the Civil War, which was secular, we've had very little warfare on our little slice of the planet. So our appetite for war is still (unfortunately) large, because our institutional memory is that 1) we WIN wars, and 2) we wind up benefitting from wars, as we did hugely from both World Wars.

This is one reason why losing in Vietnam was so traumatic. It went against everything we told ourselves. We didn't win that war (and to this day the Loonies think we were stabbed in the back, which is also what Hitler told the Germans in the 1920s), and we certainly didn't benefit from it. It started the inflation that spiraled out of control under Carter.

Umm.....just to point you to the issues at hand......state religion? Hell yeah we have it! There is a difference between an officially stated religion and a religion that pervades every aspect of our government! "God Bless America!" ....when senators, presidents, mayors, representatives say this crap you certainly don´t think they mean Kali? Buddha? etc? do you? We have a state religion and it continues to dictate the supposed hegemonic morality of our nation!

How are minds "snuffed out agriculturally"?

Alpha13 saidTry to go to college if you are not of the upper class if you think Europe is so liberal.

The European education system is set up to take exams so that you are allowed into certain majors. You have to receive a certain score on the standardized tests in order to enter university under a specific major. Once you enter the university it is free (unless one chooses a private school)! Not only that they pay phd students a monthly stipend to meet rent and living costs.......damn, I would prefer the European system any day!

ActiveAndFit saidThe "founding fathers" of America were far from conservative, but radical and liberal contrary to what modern religious groups say. In fact the U.S. is considered the first modern liberal state ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiberalismThe first modern liberal state was the United States of America[8], founded on the principle that "all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."[9] Pioneers of liberalism such as Adam Smith conceptualized free markets, free trade, invisible hand, spontaneous order, and claimed that they lead to prosperity. Liberals argued that economic systems based on free markets are more efficient and generate more prosperity.[10]

Here is a history of liberalism in the U.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_States
And here is a history of Conservatism in the U.S. and how if developed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism_in_the_United_States

You should probably read more books and less Wikipedia to get a full understanding of the History of the United States!

gymfunu said

Ummm......as a cultural anthropologist who has lived and spent massive amounts of time in Spain you are wrong about abortions....they are available with no limitations.

Also, Spain has approved gay marriage/adoption/inheritance with no distinction to that of heterosexual marriage.......and this is remarkable precisely because 30 years ago homosexuals were still being imprisoned. So.....your flip dismissal of "not all European countries have civil unions" doesn´t really get to the socio-political aspects of this massive change throughout most of Europe.

Also....I certainly don´t get a bad taste in my mouth with the idea of socialism.....in fact, let´s get to work on that.....socialized medicine would actually bring us into the modern world instead of letting people die from preventable and treatable diseases in the supposed most advanced country in the world!

Oops on the Spain thing. My point was that lumping all of Europe together and all of the US together and trying to say it was a single unified culture of liberalism/conservatism is not accurate and that there are variations across both regions.

gymfunu said
How are minds "snuffed out agriculturally"?

If you read the sentence carefully, you'll see that "agriculturally" refers back to the term "held back", not to "snuffed out."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising. Europe is basically