Fukushima plant spilling contaminated water into the sea 'for years'

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Aug 12, 2013 2:04 PM GMT
    This is very worrisome.

    TEPCO has been trying to stop the leak of 300 tonnes of radioactive groundwater every day.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-12/fukushima-plant-workers-raise-safety-concerns/4879960


    And this:

    Impact to US West Coast from Fukushima disaster likely larger than anticipated, several reports indicate

    http://www.bellona.org/articles/articles_2012/fukushima-westcoast-radiation
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    Aug 12, 2013 4:10 PM GMT
    There are some things (many things) in this world I can't even read because I know I'm helpless to stop it. This is one of those things. *Sigh*
  • metta

    Posts: 39134

    Aug 12, 2013 4:28 PM GMT
    GoNYMets2012 saidThis is very worrisome.

    TEPCO has been trying to stop the leak of 300 tonnes of radioactive groundwater every day.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-12/fukushima-plant-workers-raise-safety-concerns/4879960


    And this:

    Impact to US West Coast from Fukushima disaster likely larger than anticipated, several reports indicate

    http://www.bellona.org/articles/articles_2012/fukushima-westcoast-radiation

  • metta

    Posts: 39134

    Aug 12, 2013 4:31 PM GMT
    Something a little more current than the 2nd story:

    Are infants born on the US West Coast and Hawaii in danger?
    http://www.eturbonews.com/36383/are-infants-born-us-west-coast-and-hawaii-danger

    However, I will say that I have no idea where Dr. Janette Sherman, M.D., is getting these numbers from. If there were 14,000 American deaths from radiation, I'm sure the news would have picked that up by now.

    These numbers sound ridiculous to me. There is no proof of this.


    -------------------------------------------------------


    "The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is claiming the radioactive release across the Pacific is of no concern to Americans at this point. Yet Ruccio claims U.S. citizens could feel an impact — if not now, then down the road."


    http://www.mintpressnews.com/radioactive-leaks-into-ocean-at-fukushima-deemed-an-emergency/166592/
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    Aug 12, 2013 4:46 PM GMT
    metta8 saidSomething a little more current than the 2nd story:

    Are infants born on the US West Coast and Hawaii in danger?
    http://www.eturbonews.com/36383/are-infants-born-us-west-coast-and-hawaii-danger

    However, I will say that I have no idea where Dr. Janette Sherman, M.D., is getting these numbers from. If there were 14,000 American deaths from radiation, I'm sure the news would have picked that up by now.


    And this website is truly scary. I feel very bad for those living on the west coast of North America.

    http://www.nuclearcrimes.org/fukushimaupdates.php
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    Aug 12, 2013 6:37 PM GMT
    It sounds like you never heard about the many barrels of military nerve gas that were entombed in concrete blocks and then dumped off the coast of Washington state. This was done during the Carter presidency. Scientists at the time were warning that the concrete would eventually crack and then the metal drums would corrode and the nerve gas would leak out and kill the oceans.
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    Aug 12, 2013 8:05 PM GMT
    Lumpynose saidIt sounds like you never heard about the many barrels of military nerve gas that were entombed in concrete blocks and then dumped off the coast of Washington state. This was done during the Carter presidency. Scientists at the time were warning that the concrete would eventually crack and then the metal drums would corrode and the nerve gas would leak out and kill the oceans.


    There's a difference between 300 tons of radioactive water per day entering the ocean and some concrete blocks.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Aug 12, 2013 8:33 PM GMT
    failscarf said
    GoNYMets2012 said
    Lumpynose saidIt sounds like you never heard about the many barrels of military nerve gas that were entombed in concrete blocks and then dumped off the coast of Washington state. This was done during the Carter presidency. Scientists at the time were warning that the concrete would eventually crack and then the metal drums would corrode and the nerve gas would leak out and kill the oceans.


    There's a difference between 300 tons of radioactive water per day entering the ocean and some concrete blocks.



    Yes, both of them can combine together and become more potent.

    Gives new meaning to the phrase "hell on earth."
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    Aug 12, 2013 8:51 PM GMT
    While it certainly isn't a good thing, I don't think there is cause for undue alarm. 300 tons would correspond to 300 cubic metres of water. The oceans contain 1.3 billion cubic kilometres of water. This is almost literally a drop in the ocean. So it's going to get pretty heavily diluted. I also doubt that the water is that highly radioactive to begin with, at least assuming that it hasn't dissolved any of the nastier things from the core of the reactor. And radiation isn't actually quite as dangerous as most people fear. I'd think that by the time it reaches the West Coast it would be so diluted that it wouldn't increase background radiation levels by very much and would be well within safe levels.

    That said, it obviously isn't good that this is happening and needs to be dealt with immediately. That electrical company seems to have proven on multiple occasions that it is utterly incompetent at running nuclear reactors. And, even though I support nuclear power in principle, you have to wonder who in their right mind would thing it was a good idea to build nuclear power plants in a place that gets as many earthquakes as Japan.
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    Aug 12, 2013 9:02 PM GMT
    We need less of these.
    photo simpsons11_zps83951f4b.gif
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    Aug 12, 2013 9:27 PM GMT
    This explains why the guys in Cali are so fucking hot. The radiation burned off all their body fat.
  • HottJoe

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    Aug 12, 2013 10:45 PM GMT
    AstroGeek saidWhile it certainly isn't a good thing, I don't think there is cause for undue alarm. 300 tons would correspond to 300 cubic metres of water. The oceans contain 1.3 billion cubic kilometres of water. This is almost literally a drop in the ocean. So it's going to get pretty heavily diluted. I also doubt that the water is that highly radioactive to begin with, at least assuming that it hasn't dissolved any of the nastier things from the core of the reactor. And radiation isn't actually quite as dangerous as most people fear. I'd think that by the time it reaches the West Coast it would be so diluted that it wouldn't increase background radiation levels by very much and would be well within safe levels.

    That said, it obviously isn't good that this is happening and needs to be dealt with immediately. That electrical company seems to have proven on multiple occasions that it is utterly incompetent at running nuclear reactors. And, even though I support nuclear power in principle, you have to wonder who in their right mind would thing it was a good idea to build nuclear power plants in a place that gets as many earthquakes as Japan.

    Well, this is what it said in the article Metta posted:

    "A new study in April of 2013 suggests that nuclear fallout from Fukushima in March of 2011 has led to significant elevated rates of congenital thyroid illness among infants born on the West Coast and Hawaii"

    "It also appears that radiation has already killed over 14,000 Americans as Thom Hartman shockingly discovered during his 7 minute video interview with Dr. Janette Sherman, M.D., Internist and Toxicologist. These are apparently the same levels of death that were found at Chernobyl and the radiation effects could easily last over 300 years."
  • neosyllogy

    Posts: 1714

    Aug 12, 2013 10:56 PM GMT
    Haha. icon_lol.gif
    Such BS.
    This is just radiation fear mongering combined with bad science.

    Please see a dissection of the claims here:
    Researchers Trumpet Another Flawed Fukushima Death Study
    http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2011/12/20/researchers-trumpet-another-flawed-fukushima-death-study/

    Also, for those of you with some patience for reading and relating here's an excellent graph to put radiation hazards in perspective (look out for those bannanas!!! icon_wink.gif ):
    XKCD Radiation Dose Chart
    http://xkcd.com/radiation/
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Aug 12, 2013 10:56 PM GMT
    ^Looks like many of the comments on youtube are saying the story is propaganda....icon_confused.gif
  • neosyllogy

    Posts: 1714

    Aug 12, 2013 10:58 PM GMT
    HottJoe said^Looks like many of the comments on youtube are saying the story is propaganda....icon_confused.gif


    I don't doubt that.
    They say the same thing about the moonlanding videos... icon_neutral.gif

    EDIT: to elaborate the structure of the scientific community is such that there is *no motivation* to "cover up" these sorts of things. It's about as flat a structure as you get in this world. Scientists would be discussing this heavily were this an actual issue.

    I'm not a nuclear scientist, so I won't belabor the issue. But there's no cover up -- not on the analysis side at least.
    (I can't speak to the underlying data.)

    EDIT 2: Also, the paper in question is just terrible. It's statistically and deductively... a joke.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Aug 12, 2013 11:00 PM GMT
    neosyllogy said
    HottJoe said^Looks like many of the comments on youtube are saying the story is propaganda....icon_confused.gif


    I don't doubt that.
    They say the same thing about the moonlanding videos... icon_neutral.gif

    No, I mean the youtube I video I posted which claims that 14,000 Americans have died as a result of radiation....

    I think there is cause for concern, but I think there is also a lot of misinformation.
  • neosyllogy

    Posts: 1714

    Aug 12, 2013 11:04 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    neosyllogy said
    HottJoe said^Looks like many of the comments on youtube are saying the story is propaganda....icon_confused.gif


    I don't doubt that.
    They say the same thing about the moonlanding videos... icon_neutral.gif

    No, I mean the youtube I video I posted which claims that 14,000 Americans have died as a result of radiation....

    I think there is cause for concern, but I think there is also a lot of misinformation.


    I know what you mean.
    I'm pointing out that claims in "youtube comments" are apropos of nothing. By that standard the queen is a reptile from the core of the earth, the moonlanding was faked, fluoride in water was a communist plot, and lyme disease is a government superweapon that escaped...


    And, wrt the paper in question it is just terrible. It's statistically and deductively... a joke.
    If you want to believe this is all a conspiracy I don't know that there's anything I can do to dissuade you though.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Aug 12, 2013 11:06 PM GMT
    neosyllogy said
    HottJoe said
    neosyllogy said
    HottJoe said^Looks like many of the comments on youtube are saying the story is propaganda....icon_confused.gif


    I don't doubt that.
    They say the same thing about the moonlanding videos... icon_neutral.gif

    No, I mean the youtube I video I posted which claims that 14,000 Americans have died as a result of radiation....

    I think there is cause for concern, but I think there is also a lot of misinformation.


    I know what you mean.
    I'm pointing out that claims in "youtube comments" are apropos of nothing. By that standard the queen is a reptile from the core of the earth, the moonlanding was faked, fluoride in water was a communist plot, and lyme disease is a government superweapon that escaped...

    I get most of my news from the PBS Newshour and NPR, and The Newshour did a short segment last week about the ongoing disaster. I wish they had done a more in depth story...
  • neosyllogy

    Posts: 1714

    Aug 12, 2013 11:14 PM GMT
    HottJoe saidI get most of my news from the PBS Newshour and NPR, and The Newshour did a short segment last week about the ongoing disaster. I wish they had done a more in depth story...


    Because radiation is scary and scary things get viewers.
    Not because anything has actually happened to anyone.
    Do take a look at the chart regarding radiation exposure that I linked to up there.

    We are bombarded by radiation constantly. Slight uptics following "disasters" like this are more or less negligble even for the people living near Fukushima.

    Eating over cooked BBQ is a bigger cancer risk. Driving at night is a bigger health threat.
    Discussing infrastructural failures: important.
    But from an immediate health perspective there's no news.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Aug 12, 2013 11:30 PM GMT
    neosyllogy said
    HottJoe saidI get most of my news from the PBS Newshour and NPR, and The Newshour did a short segment last week about the ongoing disaster. I wish they had done a more in depth story...


    Because radiation is scary and scary things get viewers.
    Not because anything has actually happened to anyone.
    Do take a look at the chart regarding radiation exposure that I linked to up there.

    We are bombarded by radiation constantly. Slight uptics following "disasters" like this are more or less negligble even for the people living near Fukushima.

    Eating over cooked BBQ is a bigger cancer risk. Driving at night is a bigger health threat.
    Discussing infrastructural failures: important.
    But from an immediate health perspective there's no news.

    I looked at your chart. I'm no expert either, but I remember hearing that there are different types of radiation, and that airplane radiation is different than X ray radiation, because it passes right through you, whereas a dental X ray is absorbed into your tissues.
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    Aug 12, 2013 11:57 PM GMT
    The Pacific is the biggest ocean in the world. Its a quite a distance for this radioactive water to travel all the way to the west coast while staying radioactive enough to be considered a threat to human life. I dont think there should be any major concerns on this other side of the Pacific but the issue is still worrisome, specially for those who live in Japan and around Japan.
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    Aug 13, 2013 12:10 AM GMT
    This is from the NY Times

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/19/world/asia/steam-detected-at-damaged-fukushima-reactor.html?_r=0


    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/world/asia/japanese-nuclear-plant-may-have-been-leaking-for-two-years.html

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    Aug 13, 2013 2:57 AM GMT
    HottJoe saidWell, this is what it said in the article Metta posted:

    "A new study in April of 2013 suggests that nuclear fallout from Fukushima in March of 2011 has led to significant elevated rates of congenital thyroid illness among infants born on the West Coast and Hawaii"

    "It also appears that radiation has already killed over 14,000 Americans as Thom Hartman shockingly discovered during his 7 minute video interview with Dr. Janette Sherman, M.D., Internist and Toxicologist. These are apparently the same levels of death that were found at Chernobyl and the radiation effects could easily last over 300 years."

    Well, I could be wrong. My knowledge of this is coming mostly from a physics perspective, rather than a biological one, after all. But, if I'm not mistaken, aren't these quotes referring to the radiation released in the original disaster, and not simply the water leak? But I find the 14 000 figure to be extremely dubious, although without reading the study I can't say for certain. Nuclear power is such a contentious issue and many people bend, or break, the facts (I'm looking at you, Greenpeace) as you mention in a later post. As for the Chernobyl comparison: I've always been a bit dubious about how good our statistics really are. First of all it requires that we assume that the Soviet government was entirely honest about things at the time and that, since then, the Russian and Ukranian governments have actually been able to fully keep track of people, which may not have been the case in the chaos following the fall of the USSR. So I tend to assume the Chernobyl figure to be somewhat higher than the official numbers.
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    Aug 13, 2013 3:02 AM GMT
    HottJoe said
    I looked at your chart. I'm no expert either, but I remember hearing that there are different types of radiation, and that airplane radiation is different than X ray radiation, because it passes right through you, whereas a dental X ray is absorbed into your tissues.

    The way sieverts (the unit used in this chart work) is that they account for these differences in the types of radiation. So the same ammount of X-ray energy will give you a higher dose than the same ammount of, say, beta-ray energy. And radio-wave energy will give you none at all.
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    Aug 13, 2013 3:39 AM GMT
    Scruffypup saidThere are some things (many things) in this world I can't even read because I know I'm helpless to stop it. This is one of those things. *Sigh*

    I know it sounds wishy-washy, but as an Environmentalist in a corrupt country, I find persistance to be the key to getting anything done.