My issue with Prop 8, Welcome to the Fricken' party, it's about time!!!

  • gsh1964

    Posts: 388

    Nov 15, 2008 12:39 PM GMT
    My state was one of the first states to pass a law about marriage only being allowed between a man and a woman.
    Then several states started following suit.
    Why is it now, that it has finally hit California, people are starting to care?
    What's so special about California that I should give a crap? You guys didn't give a crap about my state and the others a few years ago.

    It hit home for me, 2 years ago. It was passed, overwhelmingly by 60%.
    It's kinda funny how California happens to be the "trendsetter" state. But in this case Missouri/Kansas happens to be.

    So sorry if I sound a little apathetic about it. But I got over this bigotted law about a year ago. I'm okay with the fact that marriage is only between a man and a woman. I have healed and moved forward. Especially since the gay community in my state and others states didn't care.

    It is my belief that we will never have full marriage benefits as long as people hide their sexuality..... blah blah blah.... whatever.... I don't care. I did once, but my voice fell upon deaf ears.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 3:33 PM GMT
    I hear you. Nebraska passed theirs in 2000 with a overwhelming of 70%. Plus, the wording is considerred one of the worst for gays in the nation. Its sad, I feel most of the gays here act like a defeated people, with no hope. Sometimes, I don't think they even want help themslves. I brought up todays nationwide protest, most never even heard about. And when asked if they'd go, I got dirty looks. Now, these are people in the bar scene, the ones who probably sit and bitch about it the most!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 3:52 PM GMT
    I have considerable sympathy with your argument: when the same things passed in Ohio, and Florida, and so many other states, what did Californians do for us? And so why are we now asked to protest Prop 8 them?

    But this is to ignore the nature of LGBT campaigning as a self-assembled phenomenon of individuals. And it is also to ignore the role of the notion of California in the more widespread LGBT american society. On the former, there are very many LGBT people in California who are directly affected and so how can one condemn people who are fighting for their rights? On the latter, it seems to me that many LGBT people have a conception of California as an Arcadia better than their own tenuous relationship with society. Et in Arcadia Ego, and so this attack on an ideal seems to resonate. This is not about marriage, it is about legitimacy and power, and I think that is why people are inspired to protest it.

    Where were you when your state passed that ban? and what did you do? The reality is that your battle was, I imagine, far more unequal, and the LGBT people in your state far less empowered. They imagined the battle as unwinnable and so they did not fight. The antidote to this is not to refuse to participate, or to refuse to speak, but to utilize the momentum from Prop 8 to empower ourselves.

    Here's the rub: Gay society is classist, racist, misogynistic and geographically spread out. People do not care about each other enough. We desperately need to correct the first three, and we need to care more about our brothers and sisters. We need to empower ourselves to fight our own battles wherever they occur. And if we are empowered and powerful people, we need to be beacons of light in the darkness to help others empower themselves.

    And so I am going to protest, even in the pouring rain, but not because I give a jot about Californians. I care about my friends here in Ohio, and the fact they have grown up in a culture of repression and discrimination. This is a small expression of solidarity for them. You should go too.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 3:58 PM GMT
    And we will be protesting here in Connecticut where we HAVE marriage and no foreseeable threats to it in the future.

    And why? Because they've asked us to. They reached out.

    And what is more, California is a frontline in this fight more so than Missouri or any other Midwest/Southern red state could ever hope to be at this point in time.

    In some respects, I view California's gay marriage fight as akin to Spain's Civil War. We cannot let them think for a second that they can turn the tide against us.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 3:58 PM GMT
    The blame is closer to home than you think. California is home one of the countries most extensive GLBT activism and fund-raising resources. The very fact that a state issue can get so much national attention over equally abhorrent legislation elsewhere (including the far more disgusting ballot measure in Arkansas) is testament to the power of the GLBT organizations in California.

    Missouri or Nebraska just doesn't have the infrastructure to make this a national issue, though I sincerely wish each state could create powerful lobbying organizations. But, you are correct. It is a shame that we don't throw our collective weight against each state that tries to legislate hate.
  • gsh1964

    Posts: 388

    Nov 15, 2008 3:58 PM GMT
    Thank you TigerTim, very well said.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 4:03 PM GMT
    There was not a great deal of outrage in the Ohio LGBT population over our 2004 anti-gay marriage constitutional amendment. I think most Ohio LGBT people 1. are closeted/married/DL and thus don't feel impacted and 2. knew enough about our state that it would pass by large margins, which it did.

    Luckily, many employers have ignored certain aspect of our amendment and continue to provide same sex/domestic partnership benefits, despite the lawsuits brought by man krazy kristian groups.

    Still, while I get the goal of marriage rights, I'm still more concerned about being fired for being gay or being evicted over it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 4:09 PM GMT
    Gigadu said
    In some respects, I view California's gay marriage fight as akin to Spain's Civil War. We cannot let them think for a second that they can turn the tide against us.

    I agree!

    The Mormons viewed it the same way for their side, that's why they put so much time, effort and money to see it pass! Legalizing gay marriage in California is considered to be the start of a domino effect, all other states are believed to follow suit, if it ever happens.


    On the other hand, Californians don't give a rats ass about us on the Plains, yet we are going out there in the freezing cold anyway to protest Prop 8 for them. Let's see if this networking will help us out?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 4:10 PM GMT
    If I've got current events correct, California is the ONLY state where gay marriages were deemed rightful and then the right was taken away. In other states, the right never existed.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 4:22 PM GMT
    TigerTim said
    Here's the rub: Gay society is classist, racist, misogynistic and geographically spread out. People do not care about each other enough. We desperately need to correct the first three, and we need to care more about our brothers and sisters. We need to empower ourselves to fight our own battles wherever they occur. And if we are empowered and powerful people, we need to be beacons of light in the darkness to help others empower themselves.

    And so I am going to protest, even in the pouring rain, but not because I give a jot about Californians. I care about my friends here in Ohio, and the fact they have grown up in a culture of repression and discrimination. This is a small expression of solidarity for them. You should go too.


    Well said, Tiger. Since coming out almost six years ago, my chief complaint with the gay community has been what I perceive to be a trend toward hedonism. If nothing else, Prop 8 seems to be having a galvanizing effect within our community. Furthermore, as the saying goes, as goes California, so goes the nation. Given that I live in the bright red state of Texas, I have no illusion that civil unions or gay marriage will be passed, here, in the foreseeable future. That's why I think that the prop 8 protests are so important. They are bringing this issue to national awareness. Until civil unions and/or gay marriage are legalized at the federal level, those of us living in red states have no real hope of ever enjoying the benefits of our comrades in MA, CT, VT, Canada or Europe.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 4:28 PM GMT
    Here's the rub: Gay society is classist, racist, misogynistic and geographically spread out. People do not care about each other enough. We desperately need to correct the first three, and we need to care more about our brothers and sisters. We need to empower ourselves to fight our own battles wherever they occur. And if we are empowered and powerful people, we need to be beacons of light in the darkness to help others empower themselves.

    Sounds like society in general, which goes to show that gays are not so different from their straight peers, except of course in their gender of choice for intimate relations.

    Without the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms in Canada I doubt if we would have the right to marry.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 4:51 PM GMT
    Maverick75 said
    On the other hand, Californians don't give a rats ass about us on the Plains, yet we are going out there in the freezing cold anyway to protest Prop 8 for them. Let's see if this networking will help us out?


    That's not fair. Large amounts of California's population, at least in the large urban areas, come from places like the Plains and maintain ties to people & places. I'm from the north Midwest and care very deeply about what happens there on the political, social & cultural stage. I may live in S.F. but the Midwest made me.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 5:00 PM GMT
    McGay saidIf I've got current events correct, California is the ONLY state where gay marriages were deemed rightful and then the right was taken away. In other states, the right never existed.


    That is why to me the real issue is the process itself. How can a right determined by the highest court in the state be put up to a referendum vote?

    We may muse all we like about who is to blame, and the fact that the GLBT community did not fight hard enough to convince straights that this proposition was wrong, but the fact is the majority of straights just tolerate us, with a significant number of them disgusted by us. We only represent maybe 10% of the population.

    Marriage is of very sentimental, almost mythical, importance to many straights. They see gays getting the right to marry as an "attack" on this precious institution. Putting this on a ballot was always likely to pass no matter how many GLBT people live in California. It should never have gotten on one to begin with. That is why it is important the human rights of the minority are protected from the attacks of the majority.
  • Hunter9

    Posts: 1039

    Nov 15, 2008 5:11 PM GMT
    eyland said
    Maverick75 said
    On the other hand, Californians don't give a rats ass about us on the Plains, yet we are going out there in the freezing cold anyway to protest Prop 8 for them. Let's see if this networking will help us out?


    That's not fair. Large amounts of California's population, at least in the large urban areas, come from places like the Plains and maintain ties to people & places. I'm from the north Midwest and care very deeply about what happens there on the political, social & cultural stage. I may live in S.F. but the Midwest made me.


    Exactly, California's gay hotbeds like SF, LA, Long Beach, San Diego are teeming with Mid-Westerners/Eastern Seaboarders/Southerners/etc. You guys make up CA now... so if you feel neglected, its your own people turning your back.

    Also, there has been support for other states from California. In 2004, when there were about a dozen ballot measures in various states banning gay marriage, there was tons of financial (and otherwise) support to fight those battles. Primarily the money went to Oregon, since that state had the greatest chance of defeating the bill, and we didn't want to lose every contest (though we did). Do you think all that money came from Portland, Salem, or Bend??? WRONG! The money is in LA, SF, and other places of course as well. We support rights, not just for selfish reasons but for the greater good. And yes, a lot of money stays here. because things that happen HERE matter THERE too.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 5:19 PM GMT
    SurrealLife said
    Marriage is of very sentimental, almost mythical, importance to many straights. They see gays getting the right to marry as an "attack" on this precious institution. Putting this on a ballot was always likely to pass no matter how many GLBT people live in California. It should never have gotten on one to begin with. That is why it is important the human rights of the minority are protected from the attacks of the majority.


    Good points, Surreal. I'll take it one step further. For religious straights, there are apocalyptic messages being preached from the pulpit about the demise of our nation, should gay marriage be legitimized. (Lots of fall of the Roman Empire themes...) Fear mongering is as much a part of the anti-gay marriage campaign as is anything else. Last night, I was perusing Larry King's blog, which featured a couple of gay marriage-related topics. The overwhelming majority of reader comments were from our opponents. Of those, a striking majority cited biblical references for justifying their positions. Others displayed just plain ignorance about who we are and what we're like.

    It's all about education, folks. We have a PR problem. We need to improve our public image. We need to bring to the forefront emblematic gay families who prove the stereotypes wrong. After today's protests, we need to get organized and to get savvy. It's up to us. If we want it, we have to make it happen.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 5:27 PM GMT
    SurrealLife saidMarriage is of very sentimental, almost mythical, importance to many straights.
    Surreal, not to dismiss anything you wrote, but here is my view on this whole thing. I think though this is indeed mythical - that is the importance of marriage. Divorce and family issues/statistics are evidence of how important marriage is to them. What people fail to own up to is their disgust at homosexuality. THAT is the issue. It is because they think it is so against nature and so against their religious teachings that to have gays getting married is the ultimate acceptance in society that it is OK to be gay.

    People point out the issue that the gay community is flawed or even fucked up to be blunt, but no one ever REALLY considers what all the hate and condemnation from inside and outside does to the "gay psyche" Again, these laws are de-legitimize gays, and legitimize gay hate. It is not about the word marriage or the "sacredness" of "straight-love". It is about "straight love" = sacred but "gay love" = abomination/perversion.

    When younger people hate and bash gays, it is with clubs, guns, beatings. When older people hate and bash gays it is with religion and laws. Prop 8 was the baseball bat that about half of California just bashed gays with.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 14342

    Nov 15, 2008 5:38 PM GMT
    Even though there was nationwide attention on the proposition 8 in California, I just did not feel that it was any of my business because I do not live and pay taxes in California. I hoped for the defeat of proposition 8 and it did not happen. I have enough problems in my home state of New York to worry about without worrying about some anti-gay marriage ballot in California.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 5:51 PM GMT
    Very nicely stated TigerTim!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 5:53 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidEven though there was nationwide attention on the proposition 8 in California, I just did not feel that it was any of my business because I do not live and pay taxes in California. I hoped for the defeat of proposition 8 and it did not happen. I have enough problems in my home state of New York to worry about without worrying about some anti-gay marriage ballot in California.


    If we can't show solidarity with our brethren in California, then all hope is lost. This is meant to be a wake up call to the nation. California is often the nation's cultural trendsetter. If we ever hope to see federal support for civil unions or gay marriage, we have to support California's efforts. Laws in VT, CT and MA have not had the national impact that California's struggle will eventually have.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 5:55 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob saidEven though there was nationwide attention on the proposition 8 in California, I just did not feel that it was any of my business because I do not live and pay taxes in California.


    Here's why the Proposition 8 battle has got more prominence than the similar battles for gay rights in other states. The opposition considers its fight in California to be a major stand....in much the same way that certain battles in the Second World War were considered to be pivotal.

    Read what Michael R. Otterson, the managing director of public affairs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said:

    "...“We’ve spoken out on other issues, we’ve spoken out on abortion, we’ve spoken out on those other kinds of things,” said Michael R. Otterson, the managing director of public affairs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as the Mormons are formally called, in Salt Lake City. “But we don’t get involved to the degree we did on this.”

    The California measure, Proposition 8, was to many Mormons a kind of firewall to be held at all costs.

    “California is a huge state, often seen as a bellwether — this was seen as a very, very important test,” Mr. Otterson said...."

    This is out of the New York Times.

    John
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 6:12 PM GMT
    In my previous post, I am not trying to minimize the importance of the battle in other states. But, using my analogy of the Second World War, there were many battles fought on many days. But there was only one Battle of the Bulge, one D-Day, etc.

    That doesn't minimize the suffering that occurred in all the other small battles, nor does it mean that persons that were injured or killed in these other small battles were any more or less important than those killed or injured in the more pivotal battles.

    But the Prop 8 battle is a pivotal one. It is a much more significant one in the "war" we are waging simply because of the size of California, the number of gay people who live here, and the fact that the opposition considers it pivotal.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 6:39 PM GMT
    I have a lot of sympathy for gay people in California, as well as those in the other 30 states that have amended their constitutions to prevent equal marriage rights. I can not help but notice that when other states were passing hateful anti-gay laws, it made so little national attention, but as soon as California did, then it seemed to be important. At times, it is as if the other 49 states barely exist. (Not surprising, for most Americans, the world outside the US barely exists, that is until there is a war we are involved in, but that is a different issue.)
    Here in Vermont, we have Civil Unions, but we are pushing to change that to marriage, which in reality only a name change for us, but it is very symbolic. I hope we can join our fellow New England states of Massachusetts and Connecticut in granting marriage, but I know that it will be up to those of us who live in Vermont to accomplish it, there will no help from coming from outside. We will succeed, or fail, on our own.
    I honestly hope that those of you in California, as well as those of you in the rest of the country, are successful in your fights. We all deserve the same equal rights, no matter what state, or country, we live in.



  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 7:18 PM GMT
    The frustration the original poster has is understandable...as others have said, these marriage amendments are nothing new if you look at the entire US and unfortunately, there's been too little focus by "the community" on this issue nation-wide. While in the other states these amendments are to disenfranchise gays and lesbians implicitly, with CA the discrimination is explicit, which is where the difference resides. As far as I'm concerned, discrimination against lgbtq people is the last acceptable taboo and one way we can combat this is to take the gloves off and call this shit what it is...gays have been willing to engage in pleasant dialogue too long, and this has been our downfall (that and the fact that "the community" is wildly divided among economic, racial, gender, and geographic lines). Likewise, religious institutions have been exempt from political criticism for far too long and though this won't be easy to combat in the US, gays have to be ready to call out religious hate for what it is.

    The people of CA have my support on this, definately, but we must seize this moment to call attention to the nation-wide bigotry (in the guise of marriage amendments) lgbtq people have to put up with and not just demand equal rights in CA, but in all 50 states. Let's just hope this genie won't go back into the bottle until equality is the law, not the exception.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 9:04 PM GMT
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Nov 15, 2008 9:15 PM GMT
    That was a great video. Why didn't we see anything like that prior to the vote! icon_sad.gif