What Happens If You're on the Gay "Enemies List"

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    Nov 16, 2008 4:57 AM GMT
    "...."It's really awful," says Frank Schubert, campaign manager for Yes on Proposition 8. "No matter what you think of Proposition 8, we ought to respect people's right to participate in the political process. It strikes me as quite ironic that a group of people who demand tolerance and who claim to be for civil rights are so willing to be intolerant and trample on other people's civil rights." "

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1859323,00.html?cnn=yes

    I dont see any irony. ...It's tolerance for the tolerant. ...Dont expect to be treated better than they treat others.



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    Nov 16, 2008 9:04 AM GMT
    Sounds like the golden rule at work to me.
  • EricLA

    Posts: 3461

    Nov 16, 2008 9:16 AM GMT
    Democracy in action. We have free speech to react to their free speech. And as an open society, we have the right to review election donations. If you don't like America, then leave!
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    Nov 16, 2008 1:30 PM GMT
    I think this is great. Wonderful to see well-organised protests. We have civil partnerships in the UK and Britain is a much better place for it.
  • GQjock

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    Nov 16, 2008 2:39 PM GMT
    Karma's a Bitch .... ain't it? icon_cool.gif
  • cowboyathlete

    Posts: 1346

    Nov 16, 2008 2:45 PM GMT
    GQjock saidKarma's a Bitch .... ain't it? icon_cool.gif
    Amen to that.
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    Nov 16, 2008 3:29 PM GMT
    p83.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 16, 2008 3:57 PM GMT
    So he thinks that we should just sit here and deal with it? Oh hell no! What did he expect? That we say " Oh sure Mr. you donated tons of money so gays would be oppressed but I'll still come to your business and make you richer so you can continue to donate to oppressing causes?"

    Give me a break, these bigots are the most hypocritical people on the planet. Keep boycotting and keep protesting boys (and girls)!
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    Nov 16, 2008 4:08 PM GMT
    Caslon7000 said"...."It's really awful," says Frank Schubert, campaign manager for Yes on Proposition 8. "No matter what you think of Proposition 8, we ought to respect people's right to participate in the political process. It strikes me as quite ironic that a group of people who demand tolerance and who claim to be for civil rights are so willing to be intolerant and trample on other people's civil rights." "

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1859323,00.html?cnn=yes

    I dont see any irony. ...It's tolerance for the tolerant. ...Dont expect to be treated better than they treat others.





    He may be a hypocrite, and me is definitely a liar, but he's saying exactly what we need to hear - he's shown exactly what his methods are and where we are going wrong. The ministers and activists that spoke with their neighbors and congregants told them they have something to be afraid of. Prior to yesterday, we gave them more ammunition. Today they will tell their congregants, "See, their out there telling us to burn! I told you had to be afraid!" They will get more money than ever because of a few people's actions.

    The protests aren't an issue, but making the focus of the protests about one particular sect, church, or race, has only hurt our cause. I'm glad that yesterdays' protests did not look as disarray as the previous protests, but we need to continually be reminded to act out of love and not out of anger. Everyone needs to put away the blame, and reach out to people that have been told they need to fear us - we need to let them know that they are loved and that we should be loved, not feared.
  • MuslDrew

    Posts: 463

    Nov 16, 2008 4:18 PM GMT
    That's awesome! I was tied up at work yesterday, but I'm anxious to hear how all the protests from yesteray worked out.
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    Nov 16, 2008 4:20 PM GMT
    "we need to let them know that they are loved and that we should be loved, not feared."

    Thanks for that, Looknrnd
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    Nov 16, 2008 4:35 PM GMT


    Looknrnd said,

    " The protests aren't an issue, but making the focus of the protests about one particular sect, church, or race, has only hurt our cause. I'm glad that yesterdays' protests did not look as disarray as the previous protests, but we need to continually be reminded to act out of love and not out of anger. Everyone needs to put away the blame, and reach out to people that have been told they need to fear us - we need to let them know that they are loved and that we should be loved, not feared."

    all meninlove can say to looknrnd is

    Wow!


    and in the 70s Stevie Wonder said,

    ".....So make sure when you say you're in it, but not of it
    You're not helpin' to make this earth
    A place sometimes called hell
    Change your words into truths
    And then change that truth into love
    And maybe our children's grandchildren
    And their great grandchildren will tell"

    ...do you guys know each other? heh
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    Nov 16, 2008 6:08 PM GMT
    I personally want to know what businesses not to do business with. I wouldn't do business with a company that is known to have a policy of discrimination. Wah, Wah, we are taking away their business, they took away our rights.

    Love doesn't always mean marshmallows and candy canes. Sometimes it means nonviolent resistance. To love our fellow victim (queers) means speaking out
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    Nov 16, 2008 6:23 PM GMT
    I am equally tired of hearing an oppressor who victimized the population of queers crying "I'm a victim!" It is insult to injury for any group supporting gay persecution to claim that gays are the evil ones. Then again isn't that what churches have always done? We get blamed for 9/11, hurricanes, fires and more by certain religious nutcases and they can't live up to their persecution of gays for over 2000 years.

    BTW, the catholic church or at least its leadership should also be protested. Did the gays ever lead an inquisition? We need to call this what it is persecution of a minority by a bunch of hypocrites.

    Not that we have or should be committing violence against anyone, but these religious people need to mind their scriptures (which they don't anyway), they are not being protested because of their beliefs, but for meddling with our rights. They are not exempt from judgement:

    1 PeterIf you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
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    Nov 16, 2008 7:10 PM GMT
    Caslon7000 saidIt strikes me as quite ironic that a group of people who demand tolerance and who claim to be for civil rights are so willing to be intolerant and trample on other people's civil rights."


    This line is as old as time.

    When your opinion is that I should not have the same rights as you because an innate characteristic I have is different than yours, your opinion is shit.
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    Nov 16, 2008 7:29 PM GMT
    I have to roll my eyes though when the officials of religious organizations claim gays are being intolerant of them. Here are some quotes from mormons:

    Various Mormons"Being gay in ... [the Mormon] culture is beyond hell … I wanted to be cured so badly. The family is the center of Mormonism -- it is the sacred, potent unit. … It is a great failure that family can only be the family almost by the Ozzie and Harriet definition, and anything outside that is not family at all."
    Trevor Southey, artist

    "The only marriage sanctioned by God is of a man to a woman. In the case of a gay person, they really have no hope. … And to live life without hope on such a core issue I think is a very difficult thing."
    Marlin Jensen, official LDS historian.

    "Homosexuality Is Sin: Next to the crime of murder comes the sin of sexual impurity."
    Excerpt from a 2002 Mormon pamphlet.

    "We do not intend to admit to our campus any homosexuals. If any of you have this tendency and have not completely abandoned it, may I suggest that you leave the university immediately after this assembly.... We do not want others on this campus to be contaminated by your presence."
    Ernest Wilkinson, president of Brigham Young University, in a 1965 lecture to the BYU student body, titled: "Make Honor your Standard."
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    Nov 17, 2008 3:37 AM GMT
    Active, I have much regard for your posts on the issue, but a pamphlet from 1965 isn't really representative. Even the New York Times wouldn't use the word "gay" for homosexual until the late 70s or early 80s. icon_wink.gif

    BYU may have the same policy today, I can't say. Anyone know?
    I'm sure many campuses still have official policies, while on others (even public institutions) the policy may be tolerance, but the actuality may still be ppretty hostile to out students and faculty.
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    Nov 18, 2008 2:57 AM GMT
    I think it varies who you talk to, but what I see is that homosexuals are still deviant and sinful, even if they say Gays must be loved .. here is some more recent stuff ..

    2002: An article in the FEB-25 edition "The Nation" by Katherine Rosman titled "Mormon Family Values" described a two LDS pamphlets and one speech on homosexuality by a Mormon leader:

    One pamphlet allegedly says that "Homosexuality Is Sin: Next to the crime of murder comes the sin of sexual impurity."

    A former (unidentified) LDS president and prophet has stated: "Satan tells his victims that it is a natural way of life; that it is normal; that perverts are a different kind of people born 'that way' and that they cannot change. This is a base lie...it were better that such a man were never born."

    Jay Bell, Salt Lake City, UT:
    "I researched what current Mormon material says about homosexuality. The result shocked me; there are eighty-eight pieces of homophobic material readily available for church members. Here's an example, from a manual for 13-to-18-year-olds:

    'The unholy transgression of homosexuality is either rapidly growing or tolerance is giving it wider publicity. ... The Lord condemns and forbids this practice. ... God made me that way, some say, as they rationalize and excuse themselves. ... This is blasphemy. Is man not made in the image of God, and does he think God to be ‘that way'?" "

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    Nov 18, 2008 3:03 AM GMT
    I know it has been 10 years but this is interesting. Connection between a Mormon and Matthew Sheppard?

    http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020225/rosman/3"We are here today as members of the LDS church and parents of gay children," David began. He had already dispersed to the various reporters copies of the pamphlets that, he asserted, promote violence against homosexuals. He pointed out that the church had reissued literature condoning violence as a response to homosexuals at the same time that Russell Hendersen, an LDS member, was being tried for the murder of Matthew Shepard (the church has since excommunicated Hendersen). David asked that Packer or a church spokesman avow or reject the language in the pamphlets--the only existing church literature directly addressing homosexuality.
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    Nov 18, 2008 3:13 AM GMT
    Here is a quote a link with a ton of information about LDS and homosexuality:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_SaintsIn The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, homosexuality is officially seen as a set of “thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.” The Church recognizes and officially welcomes its gay and lesbian members under condition that they attempt to live the church moral code. It teaches that homosexual feelings, as distinct from behavior, may sometimes be inborn, [1] and that although these feelings are sometimes unwanted, they can and should be controlled.[2] The Church’s law of chastity forbids extramarital sex, which would include all forms of sexual activity gay and straight outside of marriage. Consistently breaking the law of chastity may result in excommunication. Nevertheless, Latter-day Saints who identify themselves as gay or lesbian may remain in good standing in the Church, without ramification, if they abstain from homosexual relations.[2] [3]
  • NewDrew

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    Nov 18, 2008 1:21 PM GMT
    I'm Going Skiing in Utah in March. Working on some T-shirt ideas. Here's what I've got so far: Mormons, Suck My Cock! You selfricous FAG Haters!
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    Nov 18, 2008 7:47 PM GMT
    Following this thread, I make the following points:

    1. The far right has long tried to confuse religion with discrimination. Let’s agree not to let them set the terms for discussion. When you cloak discrimination with religion, it makes many others feel uncomfortable disagreeing with others’ religious beliefs. This is not about religion. So let’s not let the right set the agenda and tone of conversation. This is about discrimination by a minority of another minority.

    2. Let’s also not be confused that we are playing on the same field with the same rules regarding freedom of speech, democracy, and honesty. The religious right has made it clear that they intend to stuff their beliefs down other people’s throats. They do not believe in pluralism or democracy but use democracy to advance their own agenda. If they had absolute power, do you honestly believe they would put major changes to a vote or would they do it by edict?

    3. Think about their stances about abortion, birth control, sex education, and gay rights. They don’t believe in compromise or letting others decide what they want. They want to decide for everyone what is allowed. Any disagreement is looked at as attacking them. This is why a Mormon church based in Utah worked so hard to fund a California initiative.

    4. Let’s not forget that the Mormon Church looks the other way at polygamy with its associated child abuse and child brides. They could have used the $20 million to stamp out polygamy and child abuse within the Mormon community, instead of using to fight gay marriage.

    5. With all the talk about liberal media, look at what has happened over the past 8 years of the Bush administration. We have had a resurgence of right wing media who has lied and distorted more than any liberal media – knowing they would have support from Washington and their lies would be believed. Look at Fox news for one. Who owns most of the media? Even liberal bastions such as the NY Times have pulled their punches and bent over backwards in order to be perceived as “fair.” Look at CBS and the Dan Rather issue in the courts now. CBS wanted to placate the far right. The religious right has never worried about being far, only about advancing their agenda.

    6. Finally, look at what is a lie and innuendo and what is fact and truth. Look at who says what. Judge for yourselves. This is not a fair fight. Anne Richards, former governor of Texas, who was beaten by George Bush, said once that the far right talks about compassion and fairness, but don’t be deceived. They want those who disagree with them in body bags.
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    Nov 18, 2008 8:06 PM GMT
    "and in the 70s Stevie Wonder said,"

    He also said, and this says it best "when you believe in things that you don't understand then you suffer, superstition ain't the way".
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    Nov 18, 2008 8:54 PM GMT
    I agree fully that "we ought to respect people's right to participate in the political process." Those who have contibuted monitarily to the passing of Prop. 8 also need to realize that the "gay enemies list" is public knowledge.
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    Nov 19, 2008 9:01 PM GMT
    The Morman Church used to teach the unrighteousness of non-white persons. Until a prophetic revelation came along and changed their teaching. Now Afro-Americans can belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Must we wait for another word from the Lord for them to change their stance toward Gay people? Don't they know that we will inhabit our own planets all done up in Color while they will be confined to theirs done just in Black and White.
    Any bunch that teaches that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are brothers can hardly be on the level. What a good thing that Mitt Romney wasn't elected or we'd have the National Guard shooting us a la Kent-State Style.