They worked within our system. They were organized. They knew the rules and followed them. They had a different opinion......They got it done........
This issue will not disappear. The question is, how organized will people who disagree with the recent election sadness be, when the issue comes up gain.
Instead of boycott lists, chants of outrage and sorrow, why not take lead from the Mormons?
I won't congratulate any bigotry. oh, and why don't we celebrate the holocaust too! How efficient it was! ***
Just because a system of propaganda and discrimination is efficient does not mean it should be congratulated. Not to say prop 8 is the same as the gay holocaust, but the means of lies and propaganda against a minority group can lead to far worse. For more information about the gay holocaust see the following link .. http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/hsx/ ***look at the video on Paragraph 175 (above link) and how that led to the horrible persecution of Homosexuals. It basically stripped civil rights for people guilty of homosexuality. From there things got much worse for them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_homosexuals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_LGBT_people
ActiveAndFit saidI won't congratulate any bigotry. oh, and why don't we celebrate the holocaust too! How efficient it was!
ha, thread over.
No, thread not over..... If gay people and supporters had mounted the same organized, financed and well thought out plan concerning Prop 8, and if we won, we would be proud and victorious and we would have worked the system just like the Mormons.
I congratulate their effort, not their views. This is what this country is all about. Freedom of speech and freedom to asemble and get a majority to pass a law.
So no, thread not over. Instead of getting vindictive and licking our wounds, what will YOU do next time, when he issue comes up again?
Spend countless hours planning your costume and socializing activities and march in a parade?,,,,,,and later meet your friends for more socializing? I bet many Prop 8 supporters were up late at night working the phones and gathering support.
ActiveAndFit saidI won't congratulate any bigotry. oh, and why don't we celebrate the holocaust too! How efficient it was!
ha, thread over.
No, thread not over..... If gay people and supporters had mounted the same organized, financed and well thought out plan concerning Prop 8, and if we won, we would be proud and victorious and we would have worked the system just like the Mormons.
I congratulate their effort, not their views. This is what this country is all about. Freedom of speech and freedom to asemble and get a majority to pass a law.
So no, thread not over. Instead of getting vindictive and licking our wounds, what will YOU do next time, when he issue comes up again?
March in a parade?
a church sticking its head out in state issues is not what this country is all about.
read your constitution and then make that argument.
my plan is the same is it has been all along, once i get a majority of people to stop drinking the jesus juice we can get on with real issues.
We should raise 25 million and donate it all to some amazing charities and medical research and environmental organizations - all of which would get national attention.
They (the morons) can spend their millions on more nasty TV ads.
Who the better community is will eventually shine through....
BUT..until them, I will boycott and protest and hope all gays, everywhere don't spend shit this holiday season. Ask for no gifts, if anything ask that gifts be dontation sent to HRC, or Sierra Club, or Greenpeace, etc. Give no gifts, just have friends over for dinner, or give them gift cards from gay friendly and gay owned businesses. Or donate to a cause in someone's name.
Our buying power is the icing on the economy. We have so much more power than we realize and we should all be cutting back and researching on who not to buy from and support.
See no movies, buy no clothes, no new car, spend only on what you need and from a select list. Travel and support only gay friendly and supportive areas......And keep it up, not just for a day, but for months.
My intention here is not to derail conversation about it, but to show that just because something it done "democratically" does not make it right or good. Democracy can never fail!! Or can it? Here is an example of how something that is legal and democratic can still be wrong.
http://www.schoolshistory.org.uk/hitlerssuccesses.htmWhy did people support Hitler and the Nazi party? Hitler was incredibly successful at gaining support. This section looks at the appeal and successes of Hitler and the Nazi party. ... The failure of the Putsch led Hitler to realise that the only way he would achieve power was through democratic, legal, means. As soon as the Putsch was over Hitler set about reorganising the party to enable such a turn around in the parties fortunes. ... The party played on historic fears and complaints with great effect. .. Use of Propaganda, the radio, posters and film shows, was groundbreaking.
KissingPro saidThey worked within our system. They were organized. They knew the rules and followed them.
There is a very serious question regarding whether they followed the rules governing religious & non-profit organizations engaging in political campaigns. Plus, as has been already noted here, they lied and cheated.
If this is your criteria for "working within our system" for which you offer them your congratulations, then you are no better than they are.
Red_Vespa saidIf this is your criteria for "working within our system" for which you offer them your congratulations, then you are no better than they are.
Exactly. If working within the system means pandering to the basest human fears, and fanning those fears by exagerrating them...yes, kudos, not only to the Mormons, but to the Catholics and the evangelical Christian black churches. They were all in on that ad campaign.
I say it backfired on them. I have a feeling that we are concentrating on the Yes vote. Concentrate on the No vote. Here's my hypothesis, after talking to some conservative Republicans who voted No on 8. They were outraged by the way these religions "used the system".
How about this, it was a draw, in terms of the campaign, on the effect of that money for Prop 8?
How about this too....it means they will ultimately lose...because more and more people are beginning to realize what a result of hate this vote was.
ActiveAndFit saidI won't congratulate any bigotry. oh, and why don't we celebrate the holocaust too! How efficient it was!
ActiveAndFit you are a fucking retard. How dare you compare redefining marriage to mass genocide. Has a single homo been tricked/ forced into slave labor till starvation, infection, or dehydration kills him? Has a single homo been used as a lab rat to see what's the most efficient way of sterilizing gays so that they can't reproduce. Why don't you get your bitch ass on the next flight to DC and go check out the Holocaust museum. If you have the funds you should also try the Birkenau and Auschwitz concentration camps in Poland. I've been to all 3 locations and I have no reservations in telling you to go to hell. How dare you compare something as trivial as Prop 8 to something so horrific as the Holocaust. Get a fucking life you prick. Countless men, women, and children died and you would dare rank Prop 8 in the same category. You sick fuck .
ActiveAndFit saidI won't congratulate any bigotry. oh, and why don't we celebrate the holocaust too! How efficient it was!
ActiveAndFit you are a fucking retard. How dare you compare redefining marriage to mass genocide. Has a single homo been tricked/ forced into slave labor till starvation, infection, or dehydration kills him? Has a single homo been used as a lab rat to see what's the most efficient way of sterilizing gays so that they can't reproduce. Why don't you get your bitch ass on the next flight to DC and go check out the Holocaust museum. If you have the funds you should also try the Birkenau and Auschwitz concentration camps in Poland. I've been to all 3 locations and I have no reservations in telling you to go to hell. How dare you compare something as trivial as Prop 8 to something so horrific as the Holocaust. Get a fucking life you prick. Countless men, women, and children died and you would dare rank Prop 8 in the same category. You sick fuck .
Mind your history you uneducated bonehead .. homosexuals were one of the victims of the holocaust I was speaking of. Your self righteousness is not impressive at all. Yes I dare to speak up for any form of gay persecution, if you don't like it screw you. And by the way, I guessed you missed the fact that thousands queers were castrated, lobotomized or worse during the holocaust. All to stem the spread of the disease of homosexuality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_gaysThe harsh treatment can be attributed to the view of the SS guards toward gay men, as well as to the homophobic attitudes present in German society at large.The marginalization of gay men in Germany was reflected in the camps. Out of the 5,000 to 15,000 homosexuals who were in these concentration camps, many died from savage beatings, some of them caused by other prisoners. Nazi doctors often used gay men for scientific experiments in an attempt to locate a "gay gene" to "cure" any future Aryan children who were gay.
More than one million gay German men were targeted, of whom at least 100,000 were arrested and 50,000 were serving prison terms as convicted gay men.[4] Hundreds of European gay men living under Nazi occupation were castrated under court order.[5]
Some persecuted under these laws would not have identified themselves as gay. Such "anti-homosexual" laws were widespread throughout the western world until the 1960s and 1970s, so many gay men did not feel safe to come forward with their stories until the 1970s when many so-called "sodomy laws" were repealed.
ActiveAndFit saidI won't congratulate any bigotry. oh, and why don't we celebrate the holocaust too! How efficient it was!
ActiveAndFit you are a fucking retard. How dare you compare redefining marriage to mass genocide. Has a single homo been tricked/ forced into slave labor till starvation, infection, or dehydration kills him? Has a single homo been used as a lab rat to see what's the most efficient way of sterilizing gays so that they can't reproduce. Why don't you get your bitch ass on the next flight to DC and go check out the Holocaust museum. If you have the funds you should also try the Birkenau and Auschwitz concentration camps in Poland. I've been to all 3 locations and I have no reservations in telling you to go to hell. How dare you compare something as trivial as Prop 8 to something so horrific as the Holocaust. Get a fucking life you prick. Countless men, women, and children died and you would dare rank Prop 8 in the same category. You sick fuck .
Mind your history you uneducated bonehead .. homosexuals were one of the victims of the holocaust I was speaking of. Your self righteousness is not impressive at all. Yes I dare to speak up for any form of gay persecution, if you don't like it screw you. And by the way, I guessed you missed the fact that thousands queers were castrated, lobotomized or worse during the holocaust. All to stem the spread of the disease of homosexuality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_gaysThe harsh treatment can be attributed to the view of the SS guards toward gay men, as well as to the homophobic attitudes present in German society at large. The marginalization of gay men in Germany was reflected in the camps. Out of the 5,000 to 15,000 homosexuals who were in these concentration camps, many died from savage beatings, some of them caused by other prisoners. Nazi doctors often used gay men for scientific experiments in an attempt to locate a "gay gene" to "cure" any future Aryan children who were gay.
More than one million gay German men were targeted, of whom at least 100,000 were arrested and 50,000 were serving prison terms as convicted gay men.[4] Hundreds of European gay men living under Nazi occupation were castrated under court order.[5]
Some persecuted under these laws would not have identified themselves as gay. Such "anti-homosexual" laws were widespread throughout the western world until the 1960s and 1970s, so many gay men did not feel safe to come forward with their stories until the 1970s when many so-called "sodomy laws" were repealed.
And what does that have to do w/ prop 8? Please name me a single person who is serving a prison term in America for being gay. Please name a single gay person who has been castrated under a US court order. With the advent of Gay Pride parades and Ellen how is your response relevant? You are still a douche and irrefutably wrong for trivializing the Holocaust. Please be more careful when you are trying to illustrate your ignorant points. The entire point of this blog was to say hey the voters used their right to vote and democracy was exercised. Bravo. Perhaps it's not what the majority would like but it is what the majority at the time voted. Fucking get over it. You all should have been this active about it back when it would have made a difference. Where was all this energy then?
[quote][cite][/cite]slapaho18[/quote]ActiveAndFit you are a fucking retard. How dare you compare redefining marriage to mass genocide. Has a single homo been tricked/ forced into slave labor till starvation, infection, or dehydration kills him? Has a single homo been used as a lab rat to see what's the most efficient way of sterilizing gays so that they can't reproduce. Why don't you get your bitch ass on the next flight to DC and go check out the Holocaust museum. If you have the funds you should also try the Birkenau and Auschwitz concentration camps in Poland. I've been to all 3 locations and I have no reservations in telling you to go to hell. How dare you compare something as trivial as Prop 8 to something so horrific as the Holocaust. Get a fucking life you prick. Countless men, women, and children died and you would dare rank Prop 8 in the same category. You sick fuck . BACK TO TOP
Might I remind you that the Nazis' quite happily persecuted homosexuals and quite happily dumped them into concentration camps as well, and made them wear pink triangles as a badge identifying them as homosexuals. Jews were not the only people persecuted by the Nazis -- there were plenty of political dissidents, as well as gypsies in general, homosexuals, and a large number of others as well than just Jews. So to not equate it iwth the Holocause is wrong -- homosexuals suffered from the Holocause as well, we weren't immune. So yes, Homosexuals were forced into slave labor, and did die of infection, starvation and dehydration, and yes, they were also used as lab rats.
Yes, you may have visited more than one Holocaust site, but you show a lack of knowledge when it comes to understanding who all was affected by the Holocaust because the Nazis' had multiple targets, and subjected multiple groups of people to their horrors, so NO, there is nothing wrong with associating things with the Nazis' and their persecution as they considered and treated gays as they did Jews and groups of people they deemed inferior.
Why are you so intent on making the Holocaust about gays? Is it just so you can link it to Prop 8? So anybody in the Holocaust that wasn't gay? What they don't count? A lot of people died you idiot. Not just gays. Why is it so hard for you to understand that there is no comparing the gays affected by Prop 8 and the gays persecuted in the Holocaust. You are comparing a slap on the wrist to being fed into a wood chipper feet first. There is no comparing the two you douche.
Alright Slapaho ... no one is trying to diminish the atrocity that was the Holocaust in any way but the tactics that the Mormons used in their depicting us gay men and women were very similar to what the Nazis used in their depiction of jews and roma AND homosexuals back then They lied...stretched the truth and spread innuendo They made it clear that they had an agenda ... were preying on children and were a threat to the sanctity of religious tradition So you can stop with the sanctimony and the use of the bad language
slapaho18 saidAnd what does that have to do w/ prop 8? Please name me a single person who is serving a prison term in America for being gay. Please name a single gay person who has been castrated under a US court order. With the advent of Gay Pride parades and Ellen how is your response relevant? You are still a douche and irrefutably wrong for trivializing the Holocaust. Please be more careful when you are trying to illustrate your ignorant points. The entire point of this blog was to say hey the voters used their right to vote and democracy was exercised. Bravo. Perhaps it's not what the majority would like but it is what the majority at the time voted. Fucking get over it. You all should have been this active about it back when it would have made a difference. Where was all this energy then?
Maybe you have not been bashed enough because your sexuality or lost your life because of it, but when people continue as yourself to ignore the meaning and message of discrimination towards gays it just encourages bashing. WAKE UP! because queers get their heads bashed in regularly because people like you that dishonor them by TRIVIALIZING their persecution. And you are still an ignorant self loathing moron and homophobe. Your "slap a ho" screen name speaks for itself .. real classy. Tough talking haters just don't mean much too me.
##########
I think that there are many valid approaches to protest and change. Directed anger in the from of protest is one of them because it lets people know that we are there and that this is no petty matter for us. If anything, I think our campaign commercials were too weak! If we want the compassion of people in general we need to hi-light all the persecution we have had to put up with.
That is why I think gay people should learn their history about our struggles and boldly put it in the face of these people that think we have it just peachy. The psychological damage done to gays from their youth all the way through adulthood is well documented and so is the cruel physical abuse done through history. By shoving it all under the carpet we perpetuate our self degradation. Just look around here at all the "I afraid to come out stories" .. Like ANYONE should be terrified of being who they are because they have been programmed to believe they are VILE. Relationship is the core of what being homosexual is and PROP 8 strikes at the heart of our self validation.
We do a great disservice and dishonor to all the queers who have suffered at the hand of oppressors through history by not speaking out on their behalf.
Gay Holocaust Memorial in Germany it says "STRUCK DEAD - HUSHED UP" or alternatively "struck dead and silenced", and we still are to this day. Why is it that when it comes to gay persecution, we are just told to be quiet and accept it?
ActiveAndFit you are a fucking retard. How dare you compare redefining marriage to mass genocide. Has a single homo been tricked/ forced into slave labor till starvation, infection, or dehydration kills him? Has a single homo been used as a lab rat to see what's the most efficient way of sterilizing gays so that they can't reproduce. Why don't you get your bitch ass on the next flight to DC and go check out the Holocaust museum. If you have the funds you should also try the Birkenau and Auschwitz concentration camps in Poland. I've been to all 3 locations and I have no reservations in telling you to go to hell. How dare you compare something as trivial as Prop 8 to something so horrific as the Holocaust. Get a fucking life you prick. Countless men, women, and children died and you would dare rank Prop 8 in the same category. You sick fuck . BACK TO TOP
Might I remind you that the Nazis' quite happily persecuted homosexuals and quite happily dumped them into concentration camps as well, and made them wear pink triangles as a badge identifying them as homosexuals. Jews were not the only people persecuted by the Nazis -- there were plenty of political dissidents, as well as gypsies in general, homosexuals, and a large number of others as well than just Jews. So to not equate it iwth the Holocause is wrong -- homosexuals suffered from the Holocause as well, we weren't immune. So yes, Homosexuals were forced into slave labor, and did die of infection, starvation and dehydration, and yes, they were also used as lab rats.
Yes, you may have visited more than one Holocaust site, but you show a lack of knowledge when it comes to understanding who all was affected by the Holocaust because the Nazis' had multiple targets, and subjected multiple groups of people to their horrors, so NO, there is nothing wrong with associating things with the Nazis' and their persecution as they considered and treated gays as they did Jews and groups of people they deemed inferior.[/quote]
So you are also equating Prop 8 to the Holocaust. Wow... What a bunch of pussies. Uhhh as soon as a single gay American is enslaved and worked/ starved to death by today's US Government please let me know so I can apologize for calling you a fucking douche. I'm sticking by my massive guns. You can not equate the suffering that people in the Holocaust went through to what gays in America are going through with the passing of Prop 8. If you disagree with me then you sir are worse than Hitler.
Slapaho18: What Active is doing is pointing out that gays have been persecuted in horrible ways in the past, and that does relate in how we fight for our rights currently -- we fight in part as how we have been treated in the past, so that we will no be discriminated against or treated as we have in other places and other times -- no matter how we are treated now, and there are certainly those who are still subject to hate crimes and people like Matthew Shepherd whose early death is from his sexuality.
By your reasoning Jews in this country should not appeal to or pay remembrance to the Holocaust as it has nothing to do with how they have been treated in this country -- yes, they've had some discrimmination, though overall minor compared to African Americans or Native Americans and have long played a prominent role in this country despite that descrimination which mostly prevented them from certain hotels, clubs, restaurants etc. But againt the Holocaust has NO bearing on how Jews are treated in this country today, and the same with homosexuals.
What is the same is that both of us have experienced persecution for things that are innate to us, and and identity that we have no control over. The Nazis' treated both groups the same based on a belief that both were deviants. The parallel is that we've been demonised in the past, and as of the campaign on proposition 8 demonised again in terms of wanting to corrupt innocent children into becoming homosexuals.
So I ask you slapaho18 are you guilty of wanting to convert young children into being or accepting homosexuals? Are you someone who wishes to destroy the fabric of society and the santifity of marriage to fulfill your carnal desires -- in short are you a blight on the rectitude of society and what it stands for? As that's what the Yes, was campaigning on that, Oh no, we aren't against homosexuals, just that what they are doing is their choice to live that way, and that they want to corrupt your innocent children through the state education and teachers into their debauchery. And I ask is that who you are? Someone who's made a choice and wants to bring others into your debauched 'lifestyle'.
KissingPro saidThey worked within our system. They were organized. They knew the rules and followed them. They had a different opinion......They got it done........
This issue will not disappear. The question is, how organized will people who disagree with the recent election sadness be, when the issue comes up gain.
Instead of boycott lists, chants of outrage and sorrow, why not take lead from the Mormons?
They deceived people to solicit donations to fund a tax exempt campaign of lies to pass a bill which inserts discrimination into the constitution.
I too respect them, similar to the respect I feel for, say an individual who gets away with a triple homicide on a technicality. For they too were organized, hired the right people, an exploited holes in the system to achieve their goal legitimately.
Have you guys ever talk to your gay Mormon friends about this? I know I have so many time and many of them are against them. They are not against their Mormon belief. I respect my gay Mormon friends, they don't vote vote yes on prop. 102 or prop. 8. Many of them are against it. My point is not all Mormons hate fags.
KissingPro saidThey worked within our system. They were organized. They knew the rules and followed them. They had a different opinion......They got it done........
This issue will not disappear. The question is, how organized will people who disagree with the recent election sadness be, when the issue comes up gain.
Instead of boycott lists, chants of outrage and sorrow, why not take lead from the Mormons?
They deceived people to solicit donations to fund a tax exempt campaign of lies to pass a bill which inserts discrimination into the constitution.
I too respect them, similar to the respect I feel for, say an individual who gets away with a triple homicide on a technicality. For they too were organized, hired the right people, an exploited holes in the system to achieve their goal.
GQjock saidAlright Slapaho ... no one is trying to diminish the atrocity that was the Holocaust in any way but the tactics that the Mormons used in their depicting us gay men and women were very similar to what the Nazis used in their depiction of jews and roma AND homosexuals back then They lied...stretched the truth and spread innuendo They made it clear that they had an agenda ... were preying on children and were a threat to the sanctity of religious tradition So you can stop with the sanctimony and the use of the bad language
Wow how about some freedom of speech Mr. GQjock. Talk about taking away effing freedoms lol. If LDS lied so what. It's like the news or any other media outlet. People have to be responsible enough to do their own homework. In an age when information is so easily communicated people have no excuse. If people were manipulated by commercials or whatever then hey who's fault is that. The greasy salesman or the naive shopper. Don't put all the blame on the Mormons in order to escape personal responsibility. Anyway it's late and I'm tired. Peace out everybody. Good debating but I still win
GQjock saidAlright Slapaho ... no one is trying to diminish the atrocity that was the Holocaust in any way but the tactics that the Mormons used in their depicting us gay men and women were very similar to what the Nazis used in their depiction of jews and roma AND homosexuals back then They lied...stretched the truth and spread innuendo They made it clear that they had an agenda ... were preying on children and were a threat to the sanctity of religious tradition So you can stop with the sanctimony and the use of the bad language
Don't put all the blame on the Mormons in order to escape personal responsibility.
slapaho18Wow how about some freedom of speech Mr. GQjock. Talk about taking away effing freedoms lol. If LDS lied so what. It's like the news or any other media outlet. People have to be responsible enough to do their own homework. In an age when information is so easily communicated people have no excuse. If people were manipulated by commercials or whatever then hey who's fault is that. The greasy salesman or the naive shopper. Don't put all the blame on the Mormons in order to escape personal responsibility. Anyway it's late and I'm tired. Peace out everybody. Good debating but I still win
You win only in your own mind, as for your probable RJ standing or vote you loose, but I doubt you could understand or see that as to the depth or your denial.
As for manipulation the Nazis' were masters of manipulation and lies, and took a whole nation with them. And how is it that a minority which is already questioned and looked at with suspiscion not subject to manipulation? Is it no easy to manipulate and raise suspiscion about those who people are already suspiscious -- worked with the Jews in Nazi Germany, and worked with homosexuals and the percious children of straights in the current campaign. My guess is based on your profile you are not out in the open and honest about your sexuality -- for one you don't show your face, and you state that you are in the armed forces. That is my supposition, but based on what you show what I have to assume, as such I doubt your experience is what many have experienced. Until you are honest with who you are and are honest with those on a day to day experience and work level can you say you have experienced what it is to be homosexual, and how they will respond to you.
wrerick saidSlapaho18: What Active is doing is pointing out that gays have been persecuted in horrible ways in the past, and that does relate in how we fight for our rights currently -- we fight in part as how we have been treated in the past, so that we will no be discriminated against or treated as we have in other places and other times -- no matter how we are treated now, and there are certainly those who are still subject to hate crimes and people like Matthew Shepherd whose early death is from his sexuality.
By your reasoning Jews in this country should not appeal to or pay remembrance to the Holocaust as it has nothing to do with how they have been treated in this country -- yes, they've had some discrimmination, though overall minor compared to African Americans or Native Americans and have long played a prominent role in this country despite that descrimination which mostly prevented them from certain hotels, clubs, restaurants etc. But againt the Holocaust has NO bearing on how Jews are treated in this country today, and the same with homosexuals.
What is the same is that both of us have experienced persecution for things that are innate to us, and and identity that we have no control over. The Nazis' treated both groups the same based on a belief that both were deviants. The parallel is that we've been demonised in the past, and as of the campaign on proposition 8 demonised again in terms of wanting to corrupt innocent children into becoming homosexuals.
So I ask you slapaho18 are you guilty of wanting to convert young children into being or accepting homosexuals? Are you someone who wishes to destroy the fabric of society and the santifity of marriage to fulfill your carnal desires -- in short are you a blight on the rectitude of society and what it stands for? As that's what the Yes, was campaigning on that, Oh no, we aren't against homosexuals, just that what they are doing is their choice to live that way, and that they want to corrupt your innocent children through the state education and teachers into their debauchery. And I ask is that who you are? Someone who's made a choice and wants to bring others into your debauched 'lifestyle'.
Uhhh I pretty much only read the last paragraph and even that I skimmed through. What it all boils down to is the majority of those who voted, voted in favor of Prop 8. Make whatever comparisons you want. The reality is democracy is the basis of the US government. If you don't like it I'm sure China, N. Korea, or perhaps France will have you. I don't always agree with the majority but that is how the US government works. It's a government of the people for the people and I guess by the people. I forget how the expression goes. Anyway like I said time for bed. Btw I don't have kids. If I had a gay son I wouldn't love him any less as long as he's masc and a top hahaha. He also has to go to jiu jitsu lessons and learn how to fire a hand gun. You know. Just in case... Good night
The question wasn't as to whether you had a child or how you would treat that child, but how you relate to yourself as gay, and begs the question are you gay or some fake? -- that you would relate it to whether or no you had a child tells volumes as to how you see yourself. I was also being sarcastic, which in your skimming you failed to see, but pointing out that the yes on 8 was playing on fears of what we might do to their children in influencing their cause, and not an example of how people let alone you would treat a child.
Your mistake is in assuming that democracy is not open to abuse or manipulation, and that it is perfect in its decisions -- it is not, and has not been in it's long and imperfect history. Our argument is that the decisions of the majority are not necessarily a measure of equality and are not the outcome that should be accepted. And that despite that outcome we should still fight for our equality. That democracy while preferable is not perfect, and that we need to work for a better democracy and one that respects our rights as humans and equal to other humans.
wrerick said yes on 8 was playing on fears of what we might do to their children in influencing their cause, and not an example of how people let alone you would treat a child.
Yes, we should never forget how institutionalized prejudice can lead to far worse things.
Slapaho, honey, walking off the stage in a debate does not a winner make.
Yes, democracy is the basis of our government... but it does have boundaries in place to protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority.
But you know what? If we always went by majority rule Black and Whites would have to go to separate, but not equal, schools. They wouldn't be legally allowed to drink from the same water fountains, use the same doors, or sit in the same area on a bus.
If it always went by majority rule interracial marriage wouldn't have been made legal.
Get the idea here?
Also, please, learn to type on paragraphs. Walls of text are not fun to read, and make it difficult to render your points.
So, all thise BLAH BLAH BLAH nonsense...hypothetical comparisons....hurt feelings.....fighting among ourselves............changing the subject....like a bunch of schoolgirls fighting.....
There have been a few intelligent responses to this thread that spoke of how to proceed.
The majority of what has been written is a waste of time to read.
Still, I will ask again.....
WHAT NEXT? What will YOU do when the issue comes up again?
Wow how about some freedom of speech Mr. GQjock. Talk about taking away effing freedoms lol. If LDS lied so what. It's like the news or any other media outlet. People have to be responsible enough to do their own homework. In an age when information is so easily communicated people have no excuse. If people were manipulated by commercials or whatever then hey who's fault is that. The greasy salesman or the naive shopper. Don't put all the blame on the Mormons in order to escape personal responsibility. Anyway it's late and I'm tired. Peace out everybody. Good debating but I still win [/quote]
Ah... then it's okay to be lied to gays will sway your children and jews are Christkillers all the same then right? They can say it It's up to US to realize that they are "manipulating" us because we have no excuse otherwise
Sometimes I think the gays were too chicken shit to venture into big bad scary inner city black neighborhoods, and yet the Mormons manned up and did it and are reaping the rewards for their supposed difficult work.
It's a sad day when we seem more xenophobic than Mormons. Or maybe we're just more classist.
Or maybe we were so fixated on seeing our fabulousness in a bunch of TV ads that we were getting actual meaningful results.
Im an out-of-stater and havent followed this vote, but i did read that blacks and hispanics voted overwhelmingly for the proposition. Was that a product of the Mormons efforts?...just a question
Shit, how did the Holocaust get drug into this. The mormon's circled the wagons. The Hollywood power players got into it too late. The mormon's had done their damage already.
I would support the abolishment of all organized religions, but then I am no better than they are.
Thread after thread of this is not going to solve the issues. Get involved in your local and state governments. It's the only way to facilitate change. Know, understand, and be involved in the process.
Most all of you are blaming it on the mormons as if they are the exclusive group behind prop. 8 passing. There are alot non-morman gay guys that were for prop 8. The fact of the matter is, the majority (that voted), at this time was for prop. 8. That is democracy. We can't all have what we want, we get what the majority wants, and I can accept that because otherwise there would be chaos. Personally, I think reguardless of the Mormons and their campaigning the prop. still would have passed.
As far as comparing it to the holocaust. WOW. I would ask that you really think about what you are saying. Two completely different subjects, two completely different results.
As far as seperation of religion and government. Well, you really can't get around that. This nation is overall a christian ideological nation. That is what we were founded on, and proposition 8 is about protecting religion's marriage.
In the end, we all have our own opinion, and they all conflict each other. I respect everyones opinion, as I wish they would mine. Majority rules and the majority has spoken. Stop complaining and do something about it if you really want it to change. Stop blaming advertisements, mormons, etc. DO SOMETHING.
blinktwice4y said my plan is the same is it has been all along, once i get a majority of people to stop drinking the jesus juice we can get on with real issues.
When blinktwice4y said "ha, thread over", I assume he was referring to Godwin's Law:
Godwin said:"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
In this case, it happened in the very second post! Huzzah!
Quoting further from the Wikipedia article:
Wikipedia said:The rule does not make any statement whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.
...
There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself) than others invented later. For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress.
Predictably, once the Nazis were invoked, the thread became a debate over the appropriateness of the analogy. This is consistent with the normal pattern which Godwin was addressing when he coined the Law back in 1990.
Also, it bears mentioning that our opponents in this civil rights struggle have been accusing US of Nazi tactics. EVERYONE uses the Nazis. They're very convenient.
rotabilis saidPredictably, once the Nazis were invoked, the thread became a debate over the appropriateness of the analogy. This is consistent with the normal pattern which Godwin was addressing when he coined the Law back in 1990.
Also, it bears mentioning that our opponents in this civil rights struggle have been accusing US of Nazi tactics. EVERYONE uses the Nazis. They're very convenient.
grad20_09 saidMost all of you are blaming it on the mormons as if they are the exclusive group behind prop. 8 passing. There are alot non-morman gay guys that were for prop 8. The fact of the matter is, the majority (that voted), at this time was for prop. 8. That is democracy. We can't all have what we want, we get what the majority wants, and I can accept that because otherwise there would be chaos. Personally, I think reguardless of the Mormons and their campaigning the prop. still would have passed.
As far as comparing it to the holocaust. WOW. I would ask that you really think about what you are saying. Two completely different subjects, two completely different results.
As far as seperation of religion and government. Well, you really can't get around that. This nation is overall a christian ideological nation. That is what we were founded on, and proposition 8 is about protecting religion's marriage.
In the end, we all have our own opinion, and they all conflict each other. I respect everyones opinion, as I wish they would mine. Majority rules and the majority has spoken. Stop complaining and do something about it if you really want it to change. Stop blaming advertisements, mormons, etc. DO SOMETHING.
NO PAIN - NO GAIN.
If we reverted back into an anti-black nation and the majority decided to pass a legislation that'd roll back all the civil rights laws made in the last 100 years and someone told me all of what you said in the above, I'd probably, seriously, really, literally, beat them to near death, take their pants off, grab a stick with poison-ivy and rape them with it. Then leave them in a forest for dead.
So I guess I can understand some of the hard feelings on this thread.
CitizenSol said:If we reverted back into an anti-black nation and the majority decided to pass a legislation that'd roll back all the civil rights laws made in the last 100 years and someone told me all of what you said in the above, I'd probably, seriously, really, literally, beat them to near death, take their pants off, grab a stick with poison-ivy and rape them with it. Then leave them in a forest for dead.
So I guess I can understand some of the hard feelings on this thread.
BTW...what are you doing?
I certainly understand the hard feelings. I was and am still devastated by the results. But you're comparing 100 years of civil rights with a civil right that was first legally recognized a few MONTHS ago. A lot of people weren't ready yet. We will win eventually, but the heavy-handed tactics which some on our side are using now are NOT HELPING.
I feel that the most important thing all of us can do is strive ever harder to set a positive example. Make friends with those who voted for prop 8 (or who would be for it), and let them see that they have nothing to fear from us. The vote was based on fear and ignorance which the propaganda-meisters exploited. You can't stop propaganda in a free society. But you can make the ground for it less fertile by educating the populace, and you do that by letting them see who we REALLY are -- their friends and neighbors, who want nothing more than an equal shot at the American Dream. This is something I have endeavored to do and will strive to do more of.
CitizenSol said:If we reverted back into an anti-black nation and the majority decided to pass a legislation that'd roll back all the civil rights laws made in the last 100 years and someone told me all of what you said in the above, I'd probably, seriously, really, literally, beat them to near death, take their pants off, grab a stick with poison-ivy and rape them with it. Then leave them in a forest for dead.
So I guess I can understand some of the hard feelings on this thread.
BTW...what are you doing?
I certainly understand the hard feelings. I was and am still devastated by the results. But you're comparing 100 years of civil rights with a civil right that was first legally recognized a few MONTHS ago. A lot of people weren't ready yet. We will win eventually, but the heavy-handed tactics which some on our side are using now are NOT HELPING.
I feel that the most important thing all of us can do is strive ever harder to set a positive example. Make friends with those who voted for prop 8 (or who would be for it), and let them see that they have nothing to fear from us. The vote was based on fear and ignorance which the propaganda-meisters exploited. You can't stop propaganda in a free society. But you can make the ground for it less fertile by educating the populace, and you do that by letting them see who we REALLY are -- their friends and neighbors, who want nothing more than an equal shot at the American Dream. This is something I have endeavored to do and will strive to do more of.
I agree, although I don't know what "heavy-handed tactics" you're referring to. I believe the gay rights movement is nowhere near as heavy as the black civil rights movement. Then, they practiced civil disobedience to get their point across...and it worked.
Wow, seeing some of the things people are say, really kinda makes me sad to be gay.
For one why blame the Mormons for everything? grad20_09 is right in the fact there where many other people against it, granted the ones the did vote for porp8 made it with a religious affiliation. And its understand able why, which most of you seem to forget. MARRIAGE IS A RELIGIOUS CEREMONY! Argue all you want, but the fact is, its true and you need to learn to accept it.
And instead of say aiming for marriage, why not aim or something that is the exact same thing but not called marriage. "Learn to walk before you run"
Another thing slapaho18....the pejorative way you talk to people and, your just a profligate of resource and an encumbrance on the world. I mean sure comparing this situation to the events of the Nazi's rule is a little extreme, however the problem that it at hand is still a big issue, I am sure things might be safe for you in the closet faceless man, but for us out of the closet it can be dangerous.
KissingPro saidThey worked within our system. They were organized. They knew the rules and followed them. They had a different opinion......They got it done........
This issue will not disappear. The question is, how organized will people who disagree with the recent election sadness be, when the issue comes up gain.
Instead of boycott lists, chants of outrage and sorrow, why not take lead from the Mormons?
Well, I wont congratulate them...they're bigotry...especially since they aren't our only barrier. In fact, they are the last of our worries because they're beliefs are dictated from Utah and they are practically brainwashed. There is not much hope there. HOWEVER, any movement should look towards it's successful opponents on how to move next. We would be foolish to not listen to our opponents and successful past movements and ignore their successes because we're upset. No successful movement has won while alienating their opponents. You're right - boycotts, angry cries, and perceived intimidation are absolutely the wrong way to go. Anger and intimidation (according to them) only reassure them that they have something to fear. Boycotts don't change minds, they just upset greedy people - they'll come around, but as soon as they get what they want [money], they'll leave us high and dry. It's best to just talk to people, not ignore or yell at them.
I fail to see any relevence between something relatively minor like California's proposition 8 and something horrible like the Nazis sickening, unhuman treatment of both Jews and gays. Why don't you guys try to stick to the relevent issues because most of you sound like demented idiots. Pick a damned subject and stick with it.
Sportzdog said... For one why blame the Mormons for everything? grad20_09 is right in the fact there where many other people against it, granted the ones the did vote for porp8 made it with a religious affiliation. And its understand able why, which most of you seem to forget. MARRIAGE IS A RELIGIOUS CEREMONY! Argue all you want, but the fact is, its true and you need to learn to accept it.
And instead of say aiming for marriage, why not aim or something that is the exact same thing but not called marriage. "Learn to walk before you run"
...
I agree, but what the media and others have failed to forget is that we're not fighting for the "Marriage" title but what it represents...and not in what you think I'm about to say.
The reason Gay Californians and other states enjoy the title marriage is because it affords the estimated 1069 Federal rights. By using the term Marriage we have been recognized and are allowed the Federal rights. Civil Unions are not recognized by the Federal government. That's why the term means something. If the US government would recognize Civil Unions and provide the same rights, we would not be having this discussion. I personally hope this goes to the US Supreme Court and that that happens. I to believe the term Marriage is a religious act, but it's a term that has to be used to receive those 1069 rights.
GIVE US OUR RIGHTS; WE'LL GIVE YOU YOUR WORD!!!!!
Also, your last quote provides your line of thinking. If you weren't skeptical and feared failure, your knowledge would help our cause. I'd advise that you stop being cautious, and instead take intelligent action.
Sportzdog saidMARRIAGE IS A RELIGIOUS CEREMONY! Argue all you want, but the fact is, its true and you need to learn to accept it.
I was the "maid of honor" in a marriage ceremony at the courthouse for some straight friends of mine. God wasn't mentioned. Stop pissing on my back and telling me it's rain.
Sportzdog saidMARRIAGE IS A RELIGIOUS CEREMONY! Argue all you want, but the fact is, its true and you need to learn to accept it.
I was the "maid of honor" in a marriage ceremony at the courthouse for some straight friends of mine. God wasn't mentioned. Stop pissing on my back and telling me it's rain.
Okay first thing if I pissed on you and called it rain you might like it. (kidding btw)
Second how does this prove it not a religious union?
Sportzdog saidMARRIAGE IS A RELIGIOUS CEREMONY! Argue all you want, but the fact is, its true and you need to learn to accept it.
Incorrect. There is religious marriage, and there is civil marriage. The two are entirely distinct. A straight couple can get married by a public official without any religious involvement at all. A gay couple can have a religious marriage ceremony -- I've been to several -- but will still be unmarried in the eyes of the law. Being legally married has nothing to do with your religion or lack thereof: it depends only on having a piece of paper that says "marriage license".
This battle has never been about the faith-based rite of marriage. We are only concerned with CIVIL marriage, with the legal rights and responsibilities it entails. Conflating the two is exactly what the opposition did in their propaganda and sermonizing -- making people afraid that their church might be sued if it didn't perform gay marriages. Hogwash. Their freedom of religion is protected by the very constitution that they want to amend to exclude us.
Because the license was issued by the state, not the church. Weddings are performed by pastors, priests, justices of the peace, sea captains and notary public. No religious affiliation is required for marriage.
roadbikeRob saidI fail to see any relevence between something relatively minor like California's proposition 8 and something horrible like the Nazis sickening, unhuman treatment of both Jews and gays. Why don't you guys try to stick to the relevent issues because most of you sound like demented idiots. Pick a damned subject and stick with it.
NO ONE is equating the two What some people have brought up is that the Nazi's DID oppress homosexuals during their reign of terror ... remember the Pink triangles?
But the Mormons are taking a page right out of the Nazi propaganda book in the way they spread lies and vicious rumors to get their point across
Once and for all the Holocaust and prop 8 are no where near the same and NO One is or has said that they were
And are the mormons the first to use lie and deceit to convince people one way or another? Let's not look at how many times Obama, or McCain has lied, or twisted the "truth" to their own benefit. That is their job. It is the voters job to become educated and know whether what they are saying is credible or not.
On the point of the difference between religious marriage, and civil marriage. They are one and the same. Where do you think civil marriage, or what is recognized by the government, came from? Yes, that's right.. Religious ideals of one man and one woman. So, why can't we stop fussing and call it a civil union between two people(if we want it to be called anything)? Can you not accept the fact that marriage, the word in itself, came from religion?
Again, instead of complaining about tactics used, why not do something about it. SPREAD THE TRUTH perhaps?
I think everyone is in a hissy fit because they didnt get their way. So what? Alot of McCain voters didnt get their way. Does that mean all of us should demand a recount? No. It means the majority chose and we live with it. This is as democratic as one can get without having havoc. Welcome to United States of America.
And if we are only concerned with" having a piece of paper that says "marriage license"" Then why do you have to call it marriage? I think approval would be much higher if you called it a civil union.
"We are only concerned with CIVIL marriage, with the legal rights and responsibilities it entails", --again, a "civil union" could provide this.
grad20_09 saidOn the point of the difference between religious marriage, and civil marriage. They are one and the same.
No, they're not.
grad20_09 saidWhere do you think civil marriage, or what is recognized by the government, came from? Yes, that's right.. Religious ideals of one man and one woman.
Perhaps, but so what? Ours is a pluralist society with a secular government. Civic institutions are defined by the law, not by where they came from.
grad20_09 saidSo, why can't we stop fussing and call it a civil union between two people(if we want it to be called anything)?
Fine by me, as long as the rights are the same.
grad20_09 saidCan you not accept the fact that marriage, the word in itself, came from religion?
Can YOU not accept the fact that there is a separation of church and state in this country? And the fact that, for that reason, civil marriage is independent of religious marriage?
grad20_09 saidAgain, instead of complaining about tactics used, why not do something about it. SPREAD THE TRUTH perhaps?
I quite agree! We need more positive examples and leadership, more outreach, maybe a "gay goodwill tour". :-)
grad20_09 saidAnd if we are only concerned with" having a piece of paper that says "marriage license"" Then why do you have to call it marriage? I think approval would be much higher if you called it a civil union.
I personally don't care what it's called, as long as it is legally identical to marriage.
grad20_09 said"We are only concerned with CIVIL marriage, with the legal rights and responsibilities it entails", --again, a "civil union" could provide this.
Fine by me!
Still, though, it's uncool to write discrimination into a state constitution, and take away a civil right already recognized by the law. Very uncool. I think anyone who believes in what this country stands for should be angry about that -- justifiable anger, not a "hissy fit". At the same time, acting out of anger does not serve our aims. It's a delicate balance.
KissingPro saidThey worked within our system. They were organized. They knew the rules and followed them. They had a different opinion......They got it done........
Organized crime doesn't mean the perpetrators are less criminal.
KissingPro saidThey worked within our system. They were organized. They knew the rules and followed them. They had a different opinion......They got it done........
Organized crime doesn't mean the perpetrators are less criminal.
First of all I'm going to have to say something. You're religion is a choice. weather or not you were raised within any one religious cult. In the end it is the individuals choice weather or not they want to be taking part in that religion. Sexuality as far as i can tell is too complicated to really tell weather it is inborn nature or nurture. I'd like to believe i was definitely born how i am and being a foster kid from birth my life was documented and apparently i have always made advances to older men both sexually and emotionally since i was only three and i was raised by judeo christian type households with a strict "moral" code. THe whole holocaust argument i find to be moot and tired personally because things happen now to members of our own community all the time and not all of it is recorded. I myself have been attacked once in what i thought was a gay friendly environment, arrested by gaycist police who alleged myself as racist. By the way if you've seen my dating record this is very untrue. And i was attacked along with a closetted gay police dispatcher on a side street. The police have still done nothing even though there is possible video evidence and one of there own was attacked.
Anyways to the straights against us this is all i have to say and i quote wanda sykes. "if you are against same sex marriage then don't marry somebody of the same sex."
KissingPro saidThey worked within our system. They were organized. They knew the rules and followed them. They had a different opinion......They got it done........
This issue will not disappear. The question is, how organized will people who disagree with the recent election sadness be, when the issue comes up gain.
Instead of boycott lists, chants of outrage and sorrow, why not take lead from the Mormons?
I think they won some great consolation prizes for playing. Gay and Lesbian protesters at their front door. Right where there kids can see us. Boycotts and a chance to put their tax exempt status under a microscope. They won a battle, not the cultural war they and bigots like them started against us.
The LDS have a good record of being organised. But they did not do it on their own! I'm sure catholics had a big role in it too, ( The late Pope stated any country to give gays equality is deranged, and this was said on a world stage) and the voters played an even bigger role. It could not of been done without them!
The blame game goes on. It's the one thing that pissers me off with me American husband. Nothing is ever his fault! So the blame always belongs to another.
oh, and why don't we celebrate the holocaust too! How efficient it was! ***
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