Oh, Crap...I just discovered something disconcerting and I need some help from the brotherhood...

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 20, 2008 1:17 PM GMT
    Ugh, so I have a guy that I lift with...we're also friends outside the gym...we hang out and go to lunch, play soccer and basketball and stuff....he's pretty hot, about 5'10, 175, muscular, nice abs and totally into UFC which is one of the things we have in common...we've been friends for like 3 years. He's not my type really, otherwise I'd probably have a crush on him..lol.

    so we were working out the other day and he was telling me about this show he'd seen on tv over the weekend....it was this show about physics and the stupid string theory and the stupid membrane theory, blah blah blah...

    he actually said it like that. And I was like, ummm...you don't think any of those theories have any merit? (he is educated...with an advanced degree in a semi-scientific field...engineering...ugh), so I was kind of surprised by his reaction.

    He looked at me and said...NO, I dont believe in them,,they are just theories.

    I said...well, the Big Bang is a theory...you don't believe in that?

    No, was his response.

    Then I started to get that sick feeling in my stomach...uhh, well it's called the THEORY OF EVOLUTION...are you telling me you don't believe in that?

    And he said no...not really!!!!!

    I was like....Wha? uhh....WHAT?! So you're one of those Intelligent Design nuts? And I suppose you think the earth is only 4000 years old?!?

    And he said....umm, ya..it could be.

    I was totally floored...I didn't even know what to say. He doesn't believe in carbon dating (that's been disproven by former evolutionary scientists, he says), he doesn't believe in evolution (how could something like an EYE evolve? he said).

    I finally had to tell him we can't talk about anything besides UFC and sports anymore because he's clearly insane!

    to his credit..he let it go and agreed to talk about other topics...so at least he's not trying to 'prove' his whackjob beliefs to me.

    so now what do I do? do I discuss it with him or just let it lay there, ticking like a time bomb waiting to go off and blow crazy in my face?

    evolution101.jpg
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    Nov 20, 2008 1:24 PM GMT
    haha If I scientific Theory is called a theory it's been proven he should know that.

    Either way, If this topic wasn't a big enough issue to come up before I'd just roll with it. The Dude is still cool despite is personal views.
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    Nov 20, 2008 1:42 PM GMT
    tommysguns2000 said... do I discuss it with him or just let it lay there, ticking like a time bomb waiting to go off and blow crazy in my face?

    If this is true and you can't just let him be ignorant, drop him. Find another workout buddy.

    Johnny Damon
  • HndsmKansan

    Posts: 16311

    Nov 20, 2008 1:48 PM GMT
    Well if I had heard all this, I would have been shocked as well. I would have asked him alot of questions (and knowing me, that means ALOT) as to what he does believe and why.

    In the end, if it bothers you to the point you aren't comfortable, work out with someone else, if you just see him as some weird idiot from this point forward......

    If not and it really isn't a big deal, proceed. Its up to you, Tommy.
  • Timbales

    Posts: 13993

    Nov 20, 2008 1:50 PM GMT
    You've been friends for 3 years. What is so offensive to you about his beliefs? He hasn't tried to push them on you or convert you in anyway. He kept them to himself until you started asking the questions.

    Is it his actual opinions that bother you? Or is it the political and cultural views that are normally associated with those opinions?

    You've agreed to disagree. If you cant move past it, I think it's pretty intolerant of you.
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    Nov 20, 2008 2:06 PM GMT


    Hey tommysguns,

    This sounds like an opportunity to explore curiosity, more than dismay over differences. Yes it can be teethgrinding when a person you've buddied with suddenly displays
    a perspective that's way out there, but this site is no exception when it comes to that, so go with the flow and who knows, some of your own practical perspectives might rub off. It doesn't sound like he's being belligerent or imposing about his views, or is he? That would be a little much to take, but if it's just abstract discussion it could be interesting at times. Just steer the conversations away from it til you're in an indulgent frame of mind.

    Celebrate differences. (jes' too Canadian, eh?)

    -Doug
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    Nov 20, 2008 2:13 PM GMT
    It may be disconcerting but we all have our opinions and beliefs. True, he may be ignorant but that doesn't make him a bad person, at least not until he starts hating and attacking!

    The thing about true friendship is that you learn to love and accept people despite the differences. He respected your opinion, why can't you respect his? As Timberoo said, it may seem that you are being intolerant.
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    Nov 20, 2008 2:48 PM GMT
    yeah, take it easy man. You asked for his opinion on these things and he gave them to you. You said he didn't push the issue so I don't see any reason why you should penalize him for not being a mindless guy robot... icon_confused.gif
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    Nov 20, 2008 2:59 PM GMT
    Years ago a secretary in our office said, "oh so you think you came from monkeys?" like that was evolution and it was patently absurd. A quick followup question revealed that her father was a minister, and apparantly science was not a favorite subject growing up. Here in NYC that sort of thinking is rare indeed and I was shocked, i admit. Of course I didn't care what she believed and certainly wasn't intersted in her education, so i just shook my head and moved on. Eventually she moved back to the midwest.




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    Nov 20, 2008 3:04 PM GMT
    sad and frightening. your relationship will probably fall apart now as it will always be in the back of your mind.

    either that or you could embrace the real truth of adam and steve and tiggy their pet tyrannosaurus! icon_wink.gif
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    Nov 20, 2008 3:11 PM GMT
    I will add that I think there is a big distinction between newer, quite hypothetical theories in physics and more established ones like evolution. Anthropologists continue to study and revise their thinking on how exactly natural selection works; human evolution is basically understood, but there are many questions yet unanswered -- which is why it's still a theory!

    what i find intriguing is the fact that the friend believes in a biblical-based history of the world, something only hard-core religous types get into. So is he a hard-core christian and you just didn't know, or is he mellow on religion but anti-science? that would be important for me to know, if i was gonna stay friends with him.

    also...is he gay? i take it he's not, but if he is, then it's REALLY wierd.
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    Nov 20, 2008 3:15 PM GMT
    Why don't I find these people in Canada? I have never met one unless they were a member of a fundamentalist religion. And certainly never a gay one.
  • sandiegovince

    Posts: 111

    Nov 20, 2008 3:17 PM GMT
    Sheesh Tommy, get over it. Remember, you solicited his opinion, he did NOT. So he believes in Divine Creation? Good for him. That's his right--he's not trying to convert you dude--he just expressed his opinion.Now that you hear something you don't like you want to drop him like a HOT potato. If I dropped everyone I knew that I disagreed with, I would have to disassociate myself from about a third of my family, friends, co-workers and acquaintances. Learn to agree to disagree. Find the common things that bond you together and move on.....

    Vince



  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 20, 2008 3:18 PM GMT
    These types fascinate me the same way serial killers do.

    Now correct me if I'm wrong here. Isn't a theory a postulation that's based on facts and while there's no evidence that it can't be dis-proven, there isn't sufficient evidence as yet to prove it.
    However, if it can be dis-proven, as creationism/intelligent design has been, it is no longer a theory, but a fantasy.

    Am I wrong here?

    If I am right, this is the kind of person I cannot discuss things with, since the basis of rationality is a fantasy.
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    Nov 20, 2008 3:20 PM GMT
    i'd "let it go," and make fun of him behind his back.
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    Nov 20, 2008 3:23 PM GMT
    lol i remember my first run in with a creationist- i had literally never talked about it with ppl up north because if anyone up here IS ignorant enough to throw all proven science out the window in favor of blind 'faith' in a misinterpreted metaphorical story... they have the decency to keep it to themselves. it was when i was doing a COOP for school at a design firm in Atlanta, GA, two summers ago. there was a girl my age in the firm and after work one day, after she asked me to go to church with her that sunday and i politely refused, we got into an hour long debate about such things. i was floored that anyone could be that ignorant- and by ignorant i don't mean stupid, i mean willfully ignoring of the facts in favor of fantasy- i had never heard anyone put to words, in person, those crackpot beliefs. as it turns out, i was about as rare in the deep south for believing in evolution as i was for not going to church every sunday- one of the very few in that city, it felt like lol. i was glad to flee back north where rational minds prevail.
  • Aquanerd

    Posts: 845

    Nov 20, 2008 3:34 PM GMT
    Greygull saidhaha If I scientific Theory is called a theory it's been proven he should know that.

    Either way, If this topic wasn't a big enough issue to come up before I'd just roll with it. The Dude is still cool despite is personal views.


    Ah Careful, a theory, by definition is not a fact. Check out the actual definition.Hhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theory

    While I happen to think that the Big Bang and the Theory of Evolution are the best plausible explanations, the are Theories and as such, require a bit of faith in the facts that are their basis, do in fact relate in a hypothesized manner.

    Like it or not, believing in a Theory as fact can be as dangerous to the advancement of scientific discovery as the believe in the inerrancy of the Bible!

    Just to tweak the knee jerk environmentalist out their. Scientist have never raise man's effect on "global warming" to the level of Theory.

    As far as questioning the overall intelligence of a believer in "intelligent design" of Creationist," while I do question there level of faith in the the ideas the believe to be facts, do not think that the ir though processes are any more faith based than those that are ready sell the Countries soul to "controlling global warming." Both require more blind faith that than I can understand.

    Just because you can't understand their faith don't make you any better or more intelligent that them overall.
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    Nov 20, 2008 3:45 PM GMT
    3 years is a long time to throw away a friendship over something you simply don't agree on and something your friendship wasn't initially (since you're just now finding out) based upon anyway.

    I'm still friends with someone who actually said that Palin is absolutely qualified to be President of the United States. I think the term she used was, "Hell yeah." We disagreed and we're still friends.
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    Nov 20, 2008 3:46 PM GMT
    czarodziej saidlol i remember my first run in with a creationist- i had literally never talked about it with ppl up north because if anyone up here IS ignorant enough to throw all proven science out the window in favor of blind 'faith' in a misinterpreted metaphorical story... they have the decency to keep it to themselves. it was when i was doing a COOP for school at a design firm in Atlanta, GA, two summers ago. there was a girl my age in the firm and after work one day, after she asked me to go to church with her that sunday and i politely refused, we got into an hour long debate about such things. i was floored that anyone could be that ignorant- and by ignorant i don't mean stupid, i mean willfully ignoring of the facts in favor of fantasy- i had never heard anyone put to words, in person, those crackpot beliefs. as it turns out, i was about as rare in the deep south for believing in evolution as i was for not going to church every sunday- one of the very few in that city, it felt like lol. i was glad to flee back north where rational minds prevail.



    fuck you, yankee.
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    Nov 20, 2008 3:49 PM GMT
    Ecology and Evolutionary Biology are the foundation of what I do for a living. When I come across a creationist I usually file it away and remember to avoid saying anything that might encourage them to elaborate. I don't want to get into a situation where I have to defend my professional existence, as that would only cause me to resent the person.

    This being said, I've met and am friends with some quality creationist-thinking guys...very thoughtful on a human scale, not the least bit self-absorbed or self-righteous, and certainly worthy of strong friendship. Frankly, there are many hardcore evolutionary theorists who don't meet that bar, even though we agree on many things.
  • Aquanerd

    Posts: 845

    Nov 20, 2008 3:59 PM GMT
    dancerjack said
    czarodziej saidlol i remember my first run in with a creationist- i had literally never talked about it with ppl up north because if anyone up here IS ignorant enough to throw all proven science out the window in favor of blind 'faith' in a misinterpreted metaphorical story... they have the decency to keep it to themselves. it was when i was doing a COOP for school at a design firm in Atlanta, GA, two summers ago. there was a girl my age in the firm and after work one day, after she asked me to go to church with her that sunday and i politely refused, we got into an hour long debate about such things. i was floored that anyone could be that ignorant- and by ignorant i don't mean stupid, i mean willfully ignoring of the facts in favor of fantasy- i had never heard anyone put to words, in person, those crackpot beliefs. as it turns out, i was about as rare in the deep south for believing in evolution as i was for not going to church every sunday- one of the very few in that city, it felt like lol. i was glad to flee back north where rational minds prevail.



    fuck you, yankee.


    What's stuns me is that you would waste an hour in debate. Just like debating on forum topics, once I understand the other persons level of ignorance in light of provable truths, I stop wasting my time, and let them go on with their ignorance.

    Make this a blanket response to anyone that thinks they won a debate with me on this website. icon_cool.gif

    And yes I agree, thank God "Delta was ready when you were." Yes there may be a level of blind faith ignorance on the part of religious people in the South, but that faith has manifested itself in kindness and charity that I continues to impress my "Yankee Friends" that stay.
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    Nov 20, 2008 4:05 PM GMT
    In effect, he just came out to you. He's still the same person he always was, but now you know something new about him. Try to get comfortable with it -- you don't have to adopt his ideas yourself, after all.
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    Nov 20, 2008 4:22 PM GMT
    It amazes me that you could have made it three years without ever having a conversation that revealed your friend's belief system.

    What I would understand from that is that your friendship is based on entirely different criteria.

    If that is correct then I don't see why there is any need to worry about it. As long as you guys are interested in weights and beating the unholy crap out of people then there is no reason to discuss string theory or even string cheese theory.

    Friends are precious (and mostly friendships are highly subject to evolutionary forces). To my mind that makes it very important to savor friendships and enjoy them in real time.

    If it were me, I wouldn't throw away a friend.

    That said, my personal limit is when people transform their beliefs into nasty action. If he was giving his cash to the Mormon Church, for example, that would be the end of my friendship.

    Short of that I don't wish to be prosecuted for thought crime and I will refrain from prosecuting my friends for their thought crimes.

    Terry
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    Nov 20, 2008 4:24 PM GMT


    *politely bows to Terry* A hero of ours has spoken!
  • Aquanerd

    Posts: 845

    Nov 20, 2008 4:27 PM GMT
    FitExecutive saidIn effect, he just came out to you. He's still the same person he always was, but now you know something new about him. Try to get comfortable with it -- you don't have to adopt his ideas yourself, after all.


    Finally another gay man that gets it.