Cardio & Muscle Loss

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    Sep 14, 2007 2:21 PM GMT
    Gooda day all...love all the help everyone gives around here, thanks in advance.

    I was wondering if there is any drawback to having 30 minutes of cardio daily. I may not be recalling correctly, but I think I remember reading that TOO MUCH cardio can have a reverse effect on musclemass/gain.

    Insights?

    I do 30 minutes of cardio a day, 7 days a week. I'm hoping that I don't need to lighten up with it and only do it a few times a week because I feel perfect for the rest of the day.

    Figured who'd be better to ask then the crew around here.

    Thanks guys...
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    Sep 14, 2007 7:23 PM GMT
    just make sure its catered for in your daily calorie allowance.

    However what you need to bear in mind is that rest days should be rest days and that you are not really giving the muscles chance to fully recover.

    Muscle loss from cardio is given too much press when its all down to the numbers game of calorie balance. It also depends what that cardio is ie HIIT, sprinting or just a gentle jog (some would call the latter active recovery), It will detract from what is optimal but thats such a personal thing defining what is optimal, yuo may chose to run, others chose less than perfect nutrition and so on. What you dont wanna do is all the less than perfect things at once :-)
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    Sep 14, 2007 9:06 PM GMT
    I suggest you look at www.prime-fit.com, under Health & Fitness Calculators, "Measuring your Maximum Heart Rate".

    Joey
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    Sep 14, 2007 9:06 PM GMT
    http://www.prime-fit.com/calculators.htm
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    Sep 14, 2007 11:26 PM GMT
    Thank you bfg and joey.


    Sadly enough Joey, I don't even know my weight anymore. I don't even own a scale and I never take note of what I weigh in at at the doc.'s. I should get into that huh?!

    [quote]just make sure its catered for in your daily calorie allowance. [/quote]

    Probably goes to show that I'm rather new in caring for my body. I don't go by caloric intake. I now wonder if I really should be. I never wanted to have to dount and keep tabs, ya know. I feel as though, I've found a somewhat decent way in keeping myself where I've gotten over the past year.

    Here is my regimen...

    Mon- 30 min cardio
    Tues- 30 min cardio, 45 min weights
    Wed- 30 min cardio
    Thurs- 30 min cardio, 45 min weights
    Fri- 30 min cardio
    Sat-30 min cardio, 45 min weights
    Sun-30 min cardio

    I DO consider days I don't touch weights as days OFF, maybe that;s the wrong idea and a bad one at that? Though as I mentioned, I really feel sloppy if I don't do ANYTHING throughout the day, personally.

    Any insight, opinions and advice welcomed. Thanks a bunch again and I'm sorry for the rant!


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    Sep 15, 2007 1:45 AM GMT
    It depends on your training goals....if youre doing it to keep your heart strong...its fine...if you want to build muscle mass...it depends on your diet and your strength training regimen...i personally cant do it that much and maintain my mass...I do it 3-4 days a week...right now I am trying to lean down though and doing a bit more...but when i get to my target, ill cut back...

    Its all dependent on what you want to do with your body.

    Good Luck
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    Sep 15, 2007 12:20 PM GMT
    Thanks for your input mascjock.

    If I had pecs like yours, I'd be of sound mind. That's originally why I started gettin` bodied, because I was so tired of be small framed and not really having the torso that is so easily built upon with regards to shoulders and pecs. I dream of having a chest like that, good for you.


    I wouldn't mind cutting down, it just amazes me that I don't feel great if I don't do some sort of activity. I think it's still the paranoid part of me thinking that I'll revert if I give myself a break. I'm always scared I'll lose what I've worked for, seeing as I was so unpleased with my body.


    I guess you've made me realize I don't have any "training goals" really. I just wanted to bulk up, though stay lean for work and all the same, not look like a little wafer twink.


    Question....

    I was reading some responses from "chucky" and he was sort of on the same page as me, with regards to doing cardio any chance ya can really.

    Is it a bad idea to do cardio and then weights thereafter? Really?

    Increasing weight amount, which I've not done for months, would that benefit biulding up a bit more with proper eating and the likes?

    You're all great and thanks!
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    Sep 15, 2007 12:41 PM GMT
    An effective aerobic exercise should involve 5-10 minutes of warming up at an intensity of 50-60% of maximum heart rate, followed by at least 20 minutes of exercise at an intensity of 70-80% of maximum heart rate, ending with 5-10 minutes of cooling down at an intensity of 50-60% of maximum heart rate.

    I have seen no evidence that moderate aerobic exercise has any 'reverse effect' on musclemass/gain. However...

    When generalized fitness is a professional operational requirement, as for athletes, combat services, police and fire personnel, aerobic exercise alone may not provide a well-balanced exercise program. In particular, muscular strength, especially upper-body muscular strength, is usually neglected. Also, the metabolic pathways involved in anaerobic metabolism (glycolysis and lactic acid fermentation) that generate energy during high intensity, low duration tasks such as sprinting, are not exercised at peak rates. Aerobic exercise is, however, an extremely valuable component of a balanced exercise program and is good for cardiovascular health.

    There are however many health drawbacks to extended- long terms of cardio or aerobic exercise. Maximum benefit is derived by 30-40 minute sessions of cardio seperated by at least 8 hours. Many trainers therefore recommend a half hour session of cardio in the morning, then another in the late afternoon or evening; as a way of maximising cardio exercise programs.
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    Sep 15, 2007 2:55 PM GMT
    Interesting, thank you.

    Well, I certainly consider my cardio intense (by my own standards) and I'm glad to hear that from your end of the rope, that you see no evidence that one can reverse muscle gain from doing cardio daily. I'll look into this more myself also.

    I hear you about the torso getting somewhat neglected, I'm hoping that is not something that coems to be down the road for me. I've no intentions, as I assume no one would, to let that happen.

    One never knows though.
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    Sep 17, 2007 6:26 AM GMT
    Again we are back to this world is flat mentality that the only way to maintain good CV ability is to run. CV has been bastardised bt the industry into a literal translation of running.

    Now wether you subscribe to it or not as maany in the body building world despise him, as it cuts away alot of the bullshit, go google HIT and Dr Darden. OK its just another approach and they all have the same effect when emplyed correctly with all the aspects of improving your body catered for ie diet/hydration/training/rest

    But running is not the only way to strengthen your heart, as much as sweating does not mean you are an efficient machine. Weights can be employed to achieve the same effect by supersets,triples and quadsets to failure, slow cadence and minimal rest.

    Its just another tool to the arsenal.

    As to the running before working out I look at it like this:

    When you run its a full body exercise it takes alot of immediate energy and immediate effort, and places a great demnd on the body. If that energy has been spent as your primary exercise then your weight training becomes secondary.

    OK so you could probably outrun me in a sprint, but sprinting is not my goal and neither does it appear it is yours.
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    Sep 17, 2007 11:57 PM GMT
    Valid point, great insight.

    You're right, running is not something that I am hooked on, though I do my own version of running/cardio indoors anyway (less impact on my knees for work).

    Twice now, I've worked out and have not done cardio in that day. It was nice and felt great that I could dedicate my time to one task rather than seeing it as, I've got to get through these two tasks. I didn't/don't feel for the worse. This is cool.

    With regards to people busting their ass gettin bodied via sweating/cardio, I can't live without it, though I do understand that even your work out, should provoke a rise in internal temp, sweating and heart rate.

    I have, since the atricle came out here on realjock, been doing super sets with my workouts each time I work out every other day. It makes a big difference and god am I truckin` through my workouts with more effort and power alike. Not heavy weights by any means, though I can feel the difference hopping from one movement to the next. So doing supersets, for me, has done much of what my ass sweatin cardio does though it focus on the areas it's directed at.

    This point in time....

    I've decided to not jog/cardio if I'm going to be working out that day and leave the working out as a dedicated activity with nothing else. We'll see how that goes.

    Good point man. Thank you again.
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    Sep 19, 2007 9:21 AM GMT
    No probs and if my bod was half as good as yours I wouldnt worry unduly anyway

    Awesome abs you bastard! :-)
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    Sep 19, 2007 9:27 AM GMT
    if yuo want to up the anti on a superset or more based routine then the way to do that as you increase fitness is to reduce rest times between the supers.

    I tend to favour:

    Compound
    1 min rest
    triple
    2 minutes rest
    isolation
    1 minute rest
    isolation
    1 min
    isolation 1 min
    and to wind down:
    superset ab workout

    Work your way down the muscle groups from large to small and by the end of the workout you will feel like you have just ran a marathon at sprint speed !
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    Sep 19, 2007 12:48 PM GMT
    Thanks, you've been quite helpful.

    Using the flash on cameras works wonders for showing cuts I guess, I'll never be comfortable with my own body ha!

    Coming home from work last night I assure you, I felt like I did a damned 100000K run!

    When I do my workout, I do supersets and I'm not sure if it's bad or not, but there may be a 5 second timeframe before I hop to the next set of movements. My muscles are not happy campers, though it seems to make a difference for me, personally.

    The only time I "rest" is after I go throguh one set of everything and I rest for about 45-60 secs.

    Ughhhhhhhh paying this price to be in shape is no fun!
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    Sep 19, 2007 1:05 PM GMT
    well again its goes back to define the word optimal as at the end of the day anything we chew the breeze over on here is optimal.

    But as you say at teh second you are not working those muscles hard and heavy to failure, if you were then it would be a different story as you would run out of steam and put in submaximal effort. (even going lighter you run the risk of that in your haste)
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    Sep 20, 2007 12:00 AM GMT
    Very true.

    I'm just a small framed skinny guy and have found so much help and good reads here, so it's been a cool journey learning a bit more.

    I NEVER want to lift heavier weights, hahahah, I'm not going to make myself red in the face, but my weight lifted is completely laughable. Though, as you mentioned it's not about "lifting" for me so I can't be THAT ashamed about my weakness!

    Cardio and working out have done wonders so I'm happy that everyone has given their advices.

    Is increasing weight something one would to to get larger and more overall strength (of course with all the nutritional factors)?
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    Sep 20, 2007 7:37 PM GMT
    muscle needs stimulation. Like anything stimulate it to the same level and not only will it not grow it will start to waste.

    Progression should always be yuor goal otherwise you are just going through the motions. The way you address it is up to you you can either do more reps, slow the speed down of the rep to increase the time under tension (TUT) or increase the weight.

    I like to know I have worked out so I lift at 5/5 cadence (speed) and do one set to failure, you shouldnt go red in teh face as if you do it means you are holding your breath and for that I will kick your arse :-)
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    Sep 22, 2007 11:55 AM GMT
    Holding my breath is something I don't do...thankfully. I know that feeling well though, I'll never break the habit of holding my breath while I perform (in certain cases) though. THAT is a complete failure on my part.





    [quote]you address it is up to you you can either do more reps, slow the speed down of the rep to increase the time under tension (TUT) or increase the weight.[/quote]

    Ah, yes. Thank you. I'm pretty sure, that my TUT is spot on during certain movements. That makes a boatload of sense and I had done some reading about that in the past. Works well. Until my TUT becomes a little dull, I think I'll (with gusto) avoid 10 more pounds of weights until spring!

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    Sep 29, 2007 6:38 AM GMT
    Hi,

    There is little, if anything, that I can contribute to this thread.

    However, it is my understanding that cardiovascular training will not produce atrophy (muscle loss). Removing cardiovascular training from the equation - You need to allow your muscles time to rest and recover - It is essential - along with maintaining correct diet, as these will effect muscle improvement.

    The other aspect is to ensure that you're eating enough carbohydrates and protein in your diet. Carbohydrates are definitely a large requirement for you, especially as you're engaging in cardiovascular training. The reason behind this, is that if you utilise all of your efficient energy (glucose from CHO), you're body will turn to muscle for energy - and THIS is where your muscle degradation will occur.

    Beyond this, if you train for hypertrophy at the same time you train for cardiovascular benefits - your muscles will still grow - however, the magnitude will not be as significant.

    Remember that intensity has a direct correlation with training gains.

    The only other remark I will make - is that when people participate in intensive weight resistance training, it's important to note that as the cardiovascular system supports the muscular system - your cardio system is still be utilised and activated - though just not to the same intensity as a direct cardiovascular training program.

    Cheers!
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    Oct 05, 2007 12:43 PM GMT
    agree with most points but your last which simply is not true
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    Oct 05, 2007 1:00 PM GMT
    Why don't you agree with the last point?

    I may be misunderstanding his last point but, my supersets make me feel like I've jogged/cardio for 35 minutes.

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    Oct 05, 2007 1:18 PM GMT
    Now I agree with what you are saying but I would also say mine would feel like I have just done a sprint at 100% the last point mentioned above implies it will be a submaximal cardio effort compared to a run
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    Oct 20, 2007 1:25 AM GMT
    bfg, you're always perfect for making me understand that I know not what I do!! hahahahahaahah