No need for bailout, say diners near thriving car plant

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    Nov 20, 2008 8:01 PM GMT
    Story Highlights

    Thriving Ohio Honda plant gives people different view of car industry in U.S.

    Tavern owner credits factory for helping business in the area

    Diners oppose bailout: "If you just give them money, you will get same-old, same-old"

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/20/honda.town/index.html

    I know I would like to see what the big 3 intend to do differently before we give them money.

    Of course, you heard that the 3 CEOs all flew into Washington on their private corporate jets for the hearings yesterday....going broke but they are too precious to travel First Class even.
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    Nov 20, 2008 10:38 PM GMT
    Makes me wonder who advises these CEOs on political astuteness. If the big 3 go belly up the number of Japanese car plants will likely increase substantially in the US.
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    Nov 20, 2008 10:59 PM GMT
    Dems want automakers to show bailout spending plan

    Story Highlights
    NEW: Lawmaker: We must take time to make sure there are safeguards

    NEW: Members of Congress from Michigan offer bipartisan proposal

    "Until [automakers] show us a plan we cannot show them the money," Pelosi says

    Reid opens door for last-minute compromise, but says "we have to face reality"


    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/20/congress.auto.bailout/index.html
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    Nov 20, 2008 11:08 PM GMT
    I dont think we should bail them out.
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    Nov 20, 2008 11:12 PM GMT
    What? "Change?"
    Of course, everyone thinks that means that everyone else should be the ones to change.

    BTW: West coast ports are filling up with unwanted asian cars. They're running out of room to store them.
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    Nov 21, 2008 12:40 AM GMT
    Mitt Romney had some good words about the bailout.

    From Romney:
    First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

    That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=mitt%20romney&st=cse&oref=slogin

    I think he's right on the money. If we give GM money nothing will change. If we give them money and demand more fuel efficient cars things will only get worse and we'll need to keep giving them money to operate.

    Chap. 11 and a reorganization under new management is the best option for everyone.


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    Nov 21, 2008 12:41 AM GMT
    Well crap I forgot how to link icon_confused.gif
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    Nov 21, 2008 1:33 AM GMT
    Trance24 saidMitt Romney had some good words about the bailout.

    From Romney:
    First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

    That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=mitt%20romney&st=cse&oref=slogin

    I think he's right on the money. If we give GM money nothing will change. If we give them money and demand more fuel efficient cars things will only get worse and we'll need to keep giving them money to operate.

    Chap. 11 and a reorganization under new management is the best option for everyone.




    Romney has and always will screw over the American worker at any chance he gets.

    People who are retired in the 60s or older sure cant go back to work to make up the difference.
  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Nov 21, 2008 11:31 AM GMT
    It's a HONDA Plant ....

    Of Course they don't want a bailout
    Why do you think ALL these republicans from TN and SC .... Yes Lindsey you closeted hypocrite
    want no bailout ?
    Because they all have foreign plants in their states...

    We cannot let American manufacturing go under like this if we want to continue to be the leader on the world stage
    We've already have lost MILLIONS of manufacturing jobs that went overseas
    we cannot afford to lose anymore

    That said... we also MUST get rid of these dinosaurs who are heading these companies
    We have Toyota and Honda and BMW making Flex fuel cars ... cars that run on bio diesel and electricity
    They even have a prototype out that can run on COMPRESSED AIR !

    And what do we get? Friggin' pick up trucks
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    Nov 21, 2008 12:41 PM GMT
    And don't forget the man-commercials GQJock, the man-commercials. How lame is that crap?

    Those big three jerks certainly didn't seem very humble when they came to ask for our money. I don't want the companies to go under, but throwing good money after bad is stupid.
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    Nov 21, 2008 12:53 PM GMT
    I hope the Big Three do go bankrupt - it would be for their own good in the long run. They are saddled with a cost structure that makes them uncompetetive before they can even get their products out. Also a restructuring would allow them to focus more on matching their product mix.to what people want (or need). and bring some of their overseas brands to the US. There are only a handful of Big Three cars that rate well against the imports. Those cars with a few exceptions are often at the extremes of the spectrum.
  • twostroke

    Posts: 184

    Nov 21, 2008 12:59 PM GMT
    The time of guzzlers is (hopefully) over. Nobody seems to want them anymore. New ones are piling up and lots of people are putting theirs for sale.

    As my next car I wish myself a very safe, clean and practicle device.... a mono-capsule perhaps.... ?? (don´t do long distances by car).

    Are car manufacturers not capable of coming up with something like that?? (does not sound that difficult)
  • jaded57

    Posts: 85

    Nov 21, 2008 1:45 PM GMT
    Im all about the big 3 filing bankruptcy. Most of there contracts are half a century old and dont benifit the automakers at all. I feel that they need to restructer to modernize.

    However I am also tired of the big flap over giving them 25 billion of my dollars. When companies like Aig get hundreds of billions. I am also tired of people blaming the big 3 saying all they make is gas guzzling Suvs. In case people forget America we were buying those cars. And those who werent buying the cars I doubt you were ringing alarm bells. Its funny how we dont hear about all the other companies getting money from the bailout. Or how the media hasnt focused to much on the govt. shifting its focus from helping stop foreclosures to just giving banks capitol (which Im pretty sure just means throwing money at them). Instead we spend the day talking to CEOs about there mode of travel. Why were we not complaining about the presidental canidates modes of travel. I dont think either of them could do without a plane true enough. But why didnt one of them travel in a hybrid bus or at least one that ran on biodiesel.


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    Nov 21, 2008 2:39 PM GMT
    sfinboston said

    Romney has and always will screw over the American worker at any chance he gets.

    People who are retired in the 60s or older sure cant go back to work to make up the difference.


    The American workers has screwed themselves over here. How is GM supposed to be able to compete with other companies who can produce cars for less?

    GIving money is just a band-aid. It won't solve the problem if GM can't control their own workers.
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    Nov 21, 2008 3:32 PM GMT
    jaded57 saidIm all about the big 3 filing bankruptcy. Most of there contracts are half a century old and dont benifit the automakers at all. I feel that they need to restructer to modernize.

    However I am also tired of the big flap over giving them 25 billion of my dollars. When companies like Aig get hundreds of billions. I am also tired of people blaming the big 3 saying all they make is gas guzzling Suvs. In case people forget America we were buying those cars. And those who werent buying the cars I doubt you were ringing alarm bells. Its funny how we dont hear about all the other companies getting money from the bailout. Or how the media hasnt focused to much on the govt. shifting its focus from helping stop foreclosures to just giving banks capitol (which Im pretty sure just means throwing money at them). Instead we spend the day talking to CEOs about there mode of travel. Why were we not complaining about the presidental canidates modes of travel. I dont think either of them could do without a plane true enough. But why didnt one of them travel in a hybrid bus or at least one that ran on biodiesel.




    It is nice to see an American coming out and saying what I have been thinking. While the American car manufacturers are partially to blame for their problems by not switching to hybrids and other fuel efficient vehicles, the American consumers had no problems buying gas-guzzling SUVs and pick-up trucks. Partially that is a function of the low price of gas in the US (which is partially due to low gas taxes), but also American consumers have always loved big vehicles. The big 3 were producing what the consumer wanted and were sideswiped by the sudden skyrocket in fuel prices.

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    Nov 21, 2008 3:46 PM GMT
    Trance24 said
    sfinboston said

    Romney has and always will screw over the American worker at any chance he gets.

    People who are retired in the 60s or older sure cant go back to work to make up the difference.


    The American workers has screwed themselves over here. How is GM supposed to be able to compete with other companies who can produce cars for less?

    GIving money is just a band-aid. It won't solve the problem if GM can't control their own workers.


    The Japanese manufacturers pay equivalent wages and benefits to the big 3. The big difference is they do not have the legacy costs of health care and pension plans to worry about since they set up shop much later in North America.

    I can't comment on the work practices in the big 3. That is usually where unions can create inefficiencies.
  • tailgaytor

    Posts: 41

    Nov 21, 2008 4:42 PM GMT
    I love reading quotes from a multi millionaire about cutting wages for the working stiffs and retirees.

    I am only in favor of loans to these big companies who patted their upper tiers of employees on the back with huge cash bonuses. They raped their companies and now want to rape the tax payer all under the guise they can't be allowed to fail.

  • GQjock

    Posts: 11649

    Nov 21, 2008 5:44 PM GMT
    The problem is ...
    if they go bankrupt
    No one in their right mind is going to buy a car from a company in chapter
    11 bankruptcy So the companies will like rapidly close

    Then you have the suppliers who supply everything under the sun to Said company ... many of them will curtail operations
    making it difficult for the rest of the companies

    You're looking at around an 8% unemployment raate
    We are already stareing at a deflationary spiral in the face this will make that scenario an almost certainty

  • jaded57

    Posts: 85

    Nov 22, 2008 5:16 AM GMT
    Im not sure but didnt back in the 80s and 90s a couple of the airlines and airplane manufatures go bankrupt. I would still by another dodge truck if it went under I like the brand. Im sure that U.A.W has nothing at all to do with the $75.00 an hour jobs or the pension plans that are better than the avg. Americans.
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    Nov 22, 2008 5:50 AM GMT
    Let the chips fall where they may. The Big 3 has closed plants and laid off workers. If they get loans they will still close plants and lay off workers. Although they have improved the quality of their products the last few years, it was their arrogance while building sub-par vehicles for the previous years that has caused some of the problems now with brand image.
    The country came around after the early 80's problems and it will again. The CNN's and MSNBC's want to lead you to a negative "the world is coming to an end" financial malaise. Unemployment may be at 7%-ish but employment is 93%-ish.
    Now, maybe we are realizing (Americans, at the least) we can live comfortably and modestly without having the biggest and most expensive of everything. At the least, the current situation can be a wakeup slap.
    Things will get better, eventually.
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    Nov 22, 2008 7:15 AM GMT
    There was a big controversy back in the 80's when Chrysler asked and got a bailout. I was for it then for all the same reasons guys are for it now. Plus, I thought at the time that Chrysler was hurt by new CAFE or mileage standards that came too fast for them to really retool and compete. The bailout then worked, the gov't got repaid, workers and suppliers kept their jobs.

    But now, I am not so sure. This has been going on for 30 years. I drive a Yukon and a Suburban, though my gas usage is tiny since I work from home, bike everywhere I can, and live in a neighborhood where I can walk almost anywhere.

    I am not sure I support the Big Three anymore. Things change. The world changes. At what point do we say, hey, you cannot or will not compete based on the reality of today? You saw it coming, you did not change, you lose? That is business. Dinosaurs die. Cars will still be built by Americans in the US, just not Chevys, Fords, ect. Anyone buy a Studebaker lately?

    Whether the CEO's went to Washington in private planes or not is interesting but not really important. A bad PR move? Hell yes. But relevant? Not really. Capitalism is based on competition. A fair competition. US car makers have had that. I hate unions with a passion, but unions are not the problem. The companies have not made the decisions needed to be competitive. So, they are losing.

    JW
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    Nov 22, 2008 7:35 AM GMT
    Not sure what's the best course of action, and there are good arguments on both sides.

    The Big Three have been poorly managed and made very poor business decisions in the past, and have been paying for that in declining market share for years. But no, they haven't made cars Americans didn't want to buy, poor quality cars plus bad management yes, but Americans did want those trucks and SUV's which is why they made them and why Toyota and Honda also invested in making them.

    Ironically they have been slimming down, and are bringing better products into production -- particularly FORD, and overall quality is at it's best on par with the foreign automakers. They are also shedding their extra production costs and should by 2010 have production costs similar to Honda and Toyota's plants in the US -- which are not unionized. Healthcare has been a big issue for them, and one of the main reasons their production costs are higher, but they are shedding these as the UAW is taking over with a payout from the companies -- the foreign companies in the US don't pay for healthcare, and in their home markets the healthcare is largely socialized so again their costs are less.

    So not sure, yes they've screwed up, but not the best time for them to go bust -- would create havoc in several sectors of the economy at a time when things are already bad, but again not a reason to keep dinosaurs on life support. Then again they have made great strides and in better circumstances can be quite profitable, and probably would be if the economy were doing better. So a maybe, depending on how the deal was structured.
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    Nov 22, 2008 7:58 AM GMT
    This may be off topic, but I will ask anyway:

    Why do employers have to pay for worker's health insurance? When did that become standard? They do not pay for car insurance, homeowner's insurance, ect? Why, and when, did it become the responsibility for the employer to pay for the health insurance of the employee? It has been going on forever, but why and when it started, I do not know.

    If everyone paid for their own health insurance, like they do for their car insurance, home owner's insurance, life insurance, maybe insurance would not be so expensive. I work for myself. I pay my own health insurance. If a company wants to pay as a part of being competitive when going after the best, fine. But why does your boss owe you health insurance? I am still puzzled by that.