The "Other" 9/11

  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 11, 2013 6:34 PM GMT
    40 years ago today, on September 11 1973, the United States Government backed a coup in which Augusto Pinochet overthrew the democratically elected president of Chile, Salvador Allende.

    During Pinochet's almost two-decade-long reign of terror, more than 3,000 people were murdered or "disappeared" under his US-backed dictatorship. Ironically, just about the same number of people who were murdered on "our" 9/11.

    Lest we forget.
  • aax_aax_aax

    Posts: 80

    Sep 15, 2013 1:05 PM GMT
    sadly enough, you're the only one to comment it here.
    but even in my contry, tv news are more concerned with flood in US than with (simultaneously happening) floods in my own contry..
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 16, 2013 2:44 PM GMT
    Aristoshark said
    WrestlerBoy said40 years ago today, on September 11 1973, the United States Government backed a coup in which Augusto Pinochet overthrew the democratically elected president of Chile, Salvador Allende.

    During Pinochet's almost two-decade-long reign of terror, more than 3,000 people were murdered or "disappeared" under his US-backed dictatorship. Ironically, just about the same number of people who were murdered on "our" 9/11.

    Lest we forget.

    I don't forget.
    Ronni Moffitt was a friend of my brother's.


    Our family is well friended with Heraldo Muñoz, who was on his way to DC to work Letelier, and Joyce Horman - Charles Horman's widow - is one of my parents best friends. I'm looking at a painting she did for them right now.
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 16, 2013 5:56 PM GMT
    failscarf saidSo are you saying the US put dictators in power and these dictators killed people?


    Clearly. The evidence is now totally incontrovertible.
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    Sep 16, 2013 6:02 PM GMT


    Mr Nixon, eh?
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 16, 2013 6:16 PM GMT
    Aristoshark said
    failscarf saidSo are you saying the US put dictators in power and these dictators killed people?

    The CIA recently confirmed its complicity in the overthrow of Mossadegh. It's not exactly a secret that they orchestrated the Chilean coup.


    A Chilean judge last year formally charged a US Naval Officer (still alive, apparently suffering from "dementia" in Florida) with the murder of Charles Horman, a U.S. citizen (I don't see the U.S. Govt whining about his extradition the way they are over Snowden's??). Both Charles and this officer are thoroughly portrayed in the 1982 Academy Award-winning Costa Gavras film, "Missing."

    Mrs Horman has been suing Kissinger for years, and our former glorious Secretary of State will be arrested if he sets foot in Chile.

    See:

    1)
    http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2013/9/10/the_pinochet_file_how_us_politicians_banks_corporations_aided_chilean_coup_dictatorship

    2)
    Peter Kornbluh: "The Pinochet File: A Declassified Dossier on Atrocity and Accountability;

    3)
    Heraldo Muñoz: "The Dictator's Shadow: Life Under Augusto Pinochet"
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 16, 2013 7:44 PM GMT
    Aristoshark saidIt would give me a permanent chubby to see Henry Kissinger in chains. I fear that he will die without coming to justice.


    Ditto, on both counts. The biggest fake who ever lived: He conned his way thru his doctorate and was never anything like the "intellectual" he pretended to be, just a sycophantic wimp who went whichever way the wind was blowing.
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    Sep 16, 2013 8:28 PM GMT
    To this day, there are quite a few on the right who claim that Pinochet saved Chile from communism and was a great leader. In reality, Pinochet committed as many human rights abuses as the Warsaw Pact countries. If a dictator wasn't communist, the United States either supported them or just ignored them. Marcos in the Philippines was another leader the US tolerated and he did some terrible things.
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 16, 2013 9:19 PM GMT
    blkapollo saidTo this day, there are quite a few on the right who claim that Pinochet saved Chile from communism and was a great leader. In reality, Pinochet committed as many human rights abuses as the Warsaw Pact countries. If a dictator wasn't communist, the United States either supported them or just ignored them. Marcos in the Philippines was another leader the US tolerated and he did some terrible things.


    I saved this from another poster (not in this thread) but because it was so concise and all true. Pinochet and Marcos? Here is "The List" of the dictatorial, murderous thug we have supported/do support. The only thing that always amazes me when I look at this list is that....not more people hate us?

    • Juan Vicente Gomez, Venezuela, 1908-1935.
    
• Jorge Ubico, Guatemala, 1931-1944.

    • Fulgencio Batista, Republic of Cuba 1952-1959.
    
• Syngman Rhee, Republic of Korea (South Korea), 1948-1960.
    
• Rafael Trujillo, Dominican Republic, 1930-1961.
    
• Ngo Dinh Diem, Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam), 1955-1963.

    • Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Iran, 1953-1979.
    
• Anastasio Somoza Garcia, Nicaragua, 1967-1979.
    
• Military Junta in Guatemala, 1954-1982.
    
• Military Junta in Bolivia, 1964-1982.

    • Military Junta in Argentina, 1976-1983.
    
• Brazilian military government, 1964-1985.
    
• François Duvalier and Jean-Claude Duvalier, Republic of Haiti, 1957-1971; 1971-1986.[
    
• Alfredo Stroessner, Paraguay, 1954-1989.
    
• Ferdinand Marcos, Philippines, 1965-1986.[8][9]

    • General Manuel Noriega, Republic of Panama, 1983-1989.
    
• General Augusto Pinochet, Chile, 1973-1990.
    
• Saddam Hussein, Republic of Iraq, 1982-1990.
    
• General (military), Suharto Republic of Indonesia, 1975-1995.
    
• Mobutu Sese Seko, Zaire/Congo, 1965-1997.
    
• Hosni Mubarak, Egypt, 1981-2011.
    
• Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa, Kingdom of Bahrain, 2012.
    
• Saudi royal family, 2012.
    
• Islam Karimov, Uzbekistan, 1991-2012.[10]

    • Meles Zenawi, Ethiopia, 1995-2012.[11]

    • Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, Equatorial Guinea, 2006-2012.
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 16, 2013 9:29 PM GMT
    Aristoshark saidWhat a depressing list of murderers and thugs.


    Isn't it, though? Can you simply imagine if all of those countries had..."arranged" our affairs - and continued to do so - that often over that period of time?
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 16, 2013 9:34 PM GMT
    Aristoshark said
    WrestlerBoy said
    Aristoshark saidWhat a depressing list of murderers and thugs.


    Isn't it, though? Can you simply imagine if all of those countries had..."arranged" our affairs - and continued to do so - that often over that period of time?

    Don't laugh, but I said in 2000 that, according to the NATO pact, the other NATO countries should have invaded the US because we had been victims of an illegal coup d'etat. Which I still believe.


    No laughter from this corner!
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    Sep 17, 2013 12:08 AM GMT
    Whose car was bombed in DC in connection with this?
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 17, 2013 12:19 AM GMT
    NJDewd saidWhose car was bombed in DC in connection with this?


    Orlando Letelier, a Chilean democratic politician, and Ronni Moffitt (as Jeff pointed out in his post), his American assistant at the time.

    Our family friend, as I say, Heraldo Muñoz (now ASG at the UN), was on his way from Uni Denver to work for Letelier. Heraldo's classmate at Denver had been Condi Rice.. they had both studied at the Univ of Denver Korbel School of International Studies (Josef Korbel was....US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright's father).

    It was this event (the car was blown up within sight of the White House) that so actually "angered" Reagan and Jeane Kirkpatrick that they began to turn against Pinochet.


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    Sep 17, 2013 12:27 AM GMT
    But didnt this happen in 1976 - well before Reagan and Kilpatrick came to power?
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    Sep 17, 2013 12:35 AM GMT
    WrestlerBoy said
    blkapollo saidTo this day, there are quite a few on the right who claim that Pinochet saved Chile from communism and was a great leader. In reality, Pinochet committed as many human rights abuses as the Warsaw Pact countries. If a dictator wasn't communist, the United States either supported them or just ignored them. Marcos in the Philippines was another leader the US tolerated and he did some terrible things.


    I saved this from another poster (not in this thread) but because it was so concise and all true. Pinochet and Marcos? Here is "The List" of the dictatorial, murderous thug we have supported/do support. The only thing that always amazes me when I look at this list is that....not more people hate us?

    • Juan Vicente Gomez, Venezuela, 1908-1935.
    
• Jorge Ubico, Guatemala, 1931-1944.

    • Fulgencio Batista, Republic of Cuba 1952-1959.
    
• Syngman Rhee, Republic of Korea (South Korea), 1948-1960.
    
• Rafael Trujillo, Dominican Republic, 1930-1961.
    
• Ngo Dinh Diem, Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam), 1955-1963.

    • Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Iran, 1953-1979.
    
• Anastasio Somoza Garcia, Nicaragua, 1967-1979.
    
• Military Junta in Guatemala, 1954-1982.
    
• Military Junta in Bolivia, 1964-1982.

    • Military Junta in Argentina, 1976-1983.
    
• Brazilian military government, 1964-1985.
    
• François Duvalier and Jean-Claude Duvalier, Republic of Haiti, 1957-1971; 1971-1986.[
    
• Alfredo Stroessner, Paraguay, 1954-1989.
    
• Ferdinand Marcos, Philippines, 1965-1986.[8][9]

    • General Manuel Noriega, Republic of Panama, 1983-1989.
    
• General Augusto Pinochet, Chile, 1973-1990.
    
• Saddam Hussein, Republic of Iraq, 1982-1990.
    
• General (military), Suharto Republic of Indonesia, 1975-1995.
    
• Mobutu Sese Seko, Zaire/Congo, 1965-1997.
    
• Hosni Mubarak, Egypt, 1981-2011.
    
• Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa, Kingdom of Bahrain, 2012.
    
• Saudi royal family, 2012.
    
• Islam Karimov, Uzbekistan, 1991-2012.[10]

    • Meles Zenawi, Ethiopia, 1995-2012.[11]

    • Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, Equatorial Guinea, 2006-2012.


    And Ngo Diem was killed by US agents when the military felt he was losing control...Always remember - keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
  • metta

    Posts: 39099

    Sep 17, 2013 12:53 AM GMT
    another one to add:

    Álvaro Uribe Velez, Colombia 2002-2010
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 17, 2013 2:28 AM GMT
    metta8 saidanother one to add:

    Álvaro Uribe Velez, Colombia 2002-2010


    There is no love lost between me and Uribe. As you know (I think?) I have been spending about 90% of my time for the last 16 months working, and living, here in Colombia.

    But to compare Uribe with the others on that list is quite an unjustified nonsense.

    I despised almost all of his policies; but your father wasn't kidnapped, brutally tortured, and murdered by the FARC (his was), and not many others on "The List" were democratically elected.....twice.

    He made infinitely many more mistakes (in MY opinion...but not in the the opinion of the majority of Colombians who elected him) than he did not. But he was an Oxford and Harvard educated lawyer, not some street-thug-cum-dictator, like most of the rest of them, and his own defense minister, Santos, who is now President here, is about to bring this Civil War to an end.

    If your point is that you completely dislike him - I wholly agree with you. But to compare him to a Somoza or military junta is not only to insult him (which I don't really care about), .... but to insult the people of the most stable (ironically) democracy in South America during the last 100 years (and that I do care about).

  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 17, 2013 3:47 AM GMT
    NJDewd saidBut didnt this happen in 1976 - well before Reagan and Kilpatrick came to power?


    Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply while they were in office, but Reagan's diaries make it clear this was a turning point for him, even as it was for Carter... IMHO, it was actually more of a turning point in Reagan's thinking THAN Carter's.... I'll agree that's debatable, though.
  • aax_aax_aax

    Posts: 80

    Sep 17, 2013 12:41 PM GMT
    WrestlerBoy said
    blkapollo saidTo this day, there are quite a few on the right who claim that Pinochet saved Chile from communism and was a great leader. In reality, Pinochet committed as many human rights abuses as the Warsaw Pact countries. If a dictator wasn't communist, the United States either supported them or just ignored them. Marcos in the Philippines was another leader the US tolerated and he did some terrible things.


    I saved this from another poster (not in this thread) but because it was so concise and all true. Pinochet and Marcos? Here is "The List" of the dictatorial, murderous thug we have supported/do support. The only thing that always amazes me when I look at this list is that....not more people hate us?

    • Juan Vicente Gomez, Venezuela, 1908-1935.
    
• Jorge Ubico, Guatemala, 1931-1944.

    • Fulgencio Batista, Republic of Cuba 1952-1959.
    
• Syngman Rhee, Republic of Korea (South Korea), 1948-1960.
    
• Rafael Trujillo, Dominican Republic, 1930-1961.
    
• Ngo Dinh Diem, Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam), 1955-1963.

    • Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Iran, 1953-1979.
    
• Anastasio Somoza Garcia, Nicaragua, 1967-1979.
    
• Military Junta in Guatemala, 1954-1982.
    
• Military Junta in Bolivia, 1964-1982.

    • Military Junta in Argentina, 1976-1983.
    
• Brazilian military government, 1964-1985.
    
• François Duvalier and Jean-Claude Duvalier, Republic of Haiti, 1957-1971; 1971-1986.[
    
• Alfredo Stroessner, Paraguay, 1954-1989.
    
• Ferdinand Marcos, Philippines, 1965-1986.[8][9]

    • General Manuel Noriega, Republic of Panama, 1983-1989.
    
• General Augusto Pinochet, Chile, 1973-1990.
    
• Saddam Hussein, Republic of Iraq, 1982-1990.
    
• General (military), Suharto Republic of Indonesia, 1975-1995.
    
• Mobutu Sese Seko, Zaire/Congo, 1965-1997.
    
• Hosni Mubarak, Egypt, 1981-2011.
    
• Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa, Kingdom of Bahrain, 2012.
    
• Saudi royal family, 2012.
    
• Islam Karimov, Uzbekistan, 1991-2012.[10]

    • Meles Zenawi, Ethiopia, 1995-2012.[11]

    • Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, Equatorial Guinea, 2006-2012.


    The word 'communist' is still a taboo in the US, no greater sin than being a communist ;) .
    Although dictatorship is awful, it's still not the worst scenario.
    Gadaffi, Mubarak, Assad.. although doing lots of crimes, still kept some things under control.. there were not much tribal violence, some religious liberties existed (numerous christian population was kept at peace there).
    I'm interested why this shift happened in american foreign policy, that in last 5 years or so they stopped supporting dictators of somewhat multicultural part of middle east (and started to support chaos there), but kept supporting dictators in far more rigid part of middle east.. Oh, they're not called dictatorships, those countries are called monarchies ;)
    I suppose that most of Americans, while dabating about evolution and creationism, are not aware of the fact that their foreign policy at the same time supports total extinction of christians across middle east.
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    Sep 17, 2013 12:53 PM GMT
    wait wait... you´re trying to judge america by the standards that everyone else has to live up to! But America is the land of the Free and by definition everything it does is morally right.

    Didn´t you get the memo?
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 17, 2013 2:24 PM GMT
    GonzoTheGreat saidwait wait... you´re trying to judge america by the standards that everyone else has to live up to! But America is the land of the Free and by definition everything it does is morally right.

    Didn´t you get the memo?


    He did not! And YOU were supposed to make sure that he did!

    I've noted in other threads the great anti-intellectual tradition we have in the United States. We're very proud of it ("farming" is a verb, a "doing" word; "thinking" is not, for us).

    We confirmed this by developing our own native philosophy. In much the same way that jazz/blues is the only indigenous United States music, Pragmatism is the only indigenous United States philosophy. The wiki entry pretty much hits the nail right on the head:

    "Pragmatism is a philosophical tradition that began in the United States around 1870. Pragmatism is a rejection of the idea that the function of thought is to describe, represent, or mirror reality. Instead, pragmatists develop their philosophy around the idea that the function of thought is as an instrument or tool for prediction, action, and problem solving. Pragmatists contend that most philosophical topics—such as the nature of knowledge, language, concepts, meaning, belief, and science—are all best viewed in terms of their practical uses and successes rather than in terms of representative accuracy."

    See? We don't "think" to "describe reality" (so fuck all of that E=mc2 and "theory" of evolution nonsense....), "thinking" is just a "tool for prediction" (the stock market.... get it?). Until, of course, all of that prediction goes down the toilet because the people doing that sort of "thinking" are as dumb as bricks (see "latest financial/banking crisis").


  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 17, 2013 10:26 PM GMT
    I don't really "remember" Bush the Elder, but someone I do know assures me that the White House once went to incredible lengths to hide the fact that he (horrors!!!) spoke.... fluent French over a private dinner with Mitterand.

    And once we found out that Kerry suffered from the same awful affliction (AND a French grandmother....WITH a castle), well, that was the end of that poncey, Ivy-educated, Eurocommie, too, right?

    Thank goodness we were saved by Bush the Younger, a good ole boy born in Dallas (I mean, New Haven), who grew up in west Texas (I mean Greenwich), and went to El Paso Community College (I mean Yale... with Kerry, more or less).

    Anyway, no more whinin', Jeff! The sun is well over the yardarm here, bring out the rum!




  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 17, 2013 10:51 PM GMT
    letsgetreadytosuckit said
    failscarf saidSo are you saying the US put dictators in power and these dictators killed people?


    be careful, man. folks will call you unamerican for saying shit that actually happened.


    Right?? How UNpatriotic can he get?? Sheesh.
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    Sep 18, 2013 12:55 AM GMT
    WrestlerBoy said
    NJDewd saidBut didnt this happen in 1976 - well before Reagan and Kilpatrick came to power?


    Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply while they were in office, but Reagan's diaries make it clear this was a turning point for him, even as it was for Carter... IMHO, it was actually more of a turning point in Reagan's thinking THAN Carter's.... I'll agree that's debatable, though.


    Actually Gerald Ford was in office then...the election that Carter squeaked out a victory over President Ford was in Nov and he took office on Jan 20 1977.
  • WrestlerBoy

    Posts: 1903

    Sep 18, 2013 2:53 AM GMT
    NJDewd said
    WrestlerBoy said
    NJDewd saidBut didnt this happen in 1976 - well before Reagan and Kilpatrick came to power?


    Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to imply while they were in office, but Reagan's diaries make it clear this was a turning point for him, even as it was for Carter... IMHO, it was actually more of a turning point in Reagan's thinking THAN Carter's.... I'll agree that's debatable, though.


    Actually Gerald Ford was in office then...the election that Carter squeaked out a victory over President Ford was in Nov and he took office on Jan 20 1977.


    We know. The point was, it changed both Reagan's political mindset about Chile, according to his diaries, and Carter's, according to Chilean policy (he actually sent Ted Kennedy down to confront Pinochet).

    It didn't have any effect, at all, on Ford or his administration: What was your point, if not to nit pick?