I've never taken steroids but....

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    Nov 24, 2008 7:22 AM GMT
    A majority of my Chem class is on Adderal, a ADHD drug that allows you to concentrate more, work longer. It's often discussed and I have had several opportunities to partake. I never have as of yet.

    Taking it doesn't magically fill there heads with more chemistry information or raise their IQ. It allows them to work longer and harder. They can maintain a productive effort longer.

    I use any "natural" methods I can to help me stay productive while studying for a particular test, Electrolyte water, caffeine, skittles, exercising, breathing exercises etc

    Theoretically if they are working as hard as they can "naturally" and then take this drug they could achieve grades above their natural capabilities.

    It's competitive, grading is on a curve so the same effort will be less if the higher the proportion of students taking this drug. If the average grade is inflated in this way and i don't take this drug I am at a disadvantage.

    I admire all these people greatly, they are intelligent, dedicated and committed people. They are doing what it takes to get an edge in a competitive environment where there is huge pressure for results and I don't view them as weak in any way....

    How is this not exactly the same situation?

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    Nov 24, 2008 7:29 AM GMT

    from Adderal's website;

    Do not take Adderall if you have used an MAO inhibitor such as isocarboxazid (Marplan), tranylcypromine (Parnate), phenelzine (Nardil), rasagiline (Azilect), or selegiline (Eldepryl, Emsam) within the past 14 days. Serious, life-threatening side effects can occur if you take Adderall before the MAO inhibitor has cleared from your body. Do not use this medication if you are allergic to amphetamine and dextroamphetamine, or if you have hardened arteries (arteriosclerosis), heart disease, moderate to severe high blood pressure (hypertension), overactive thyroid, glaucoma, severe anxiety or agitation, or a history of drug or alcohol addiction. Some stimulants have caused sudden death in children and adolescents with serious heart problems or congenital heart defects. Before taking Adderall, tell your doctor if you have any type of heart problems.

    Long-term use of Adderall can slow a child's growth. Tell your doctor if the child using Adderall is not growing or gaining weight properly.
    Adderall is a drug of abuse and may be habit-forming. Keep track of how many pills have been used from each new bottle of this medicine. You should be aware if any person in the household is using this medicine improperly or without a prescription. Using this medication improperly can cause death or serious side effects on the heart.

    ay-yiy-yiy. Sounds about as safe as 'roids.icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Nov 24, 2008 7:38 AM GMT
    ^^^ I know which is exactly why I've weighed up the consequences and decided it's not worth it.

    But if the A I'm getting in chemistry should fall to a B because the rest of the class has an unnatural chemical advantage.

    That doesn't seem fair but.... it's life and I have no right to whine about my choice or expect to be measured on a different scale because of it icon_confused.gif
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    Nov 24, 2008 7:52 AM GMT


    Well, you know, your advantage is that slow and steady wins the race. It should be interesting to see what happens to some of them as time goes by.

    There's a lot of anxiety around exams, and the drug has negative aspects when coupled with that. I think if they withdraw from the drug before exam jitters the withdrawal may even the scales mightily in your favour. here's also the 'drug induced smarts' . They can't take the drug forever, so what happens when the drug is no longer enhancing things? Makes me wonder.

    It must be quite the center of sobriety there, what with alcohol being an absolute no-no when taking adderall. heheh

    Hang in!

    (personally, I think you'll ace it.)

    -Doug
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    Nov 24, 2008 8:01 AM GMT
    Well both situations are similar and they both put certain people at a disadvantage. You said so yourself: it's a bit unfair. You either take drugs that can have negative side-effects or you are at a level too low to compete.
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    Nov 24, 2008 8:03 AM GMT
    Everyone should weigh the pros and cons of drugs and decide accordingly. If I could get adderral for a decent price...I'd shell out so fucking fast...

    Two summers ago my ex manager gave me a nice amount of addys to work more efficiently and do well in school. The first time I took em nothing happened. The following times were amazing. I hate math. On adderal, mathematics is the love of my life. I'd sit for 5 hours in B&N going through books, soaking in every word. I felt confident. If I didn't know how to do something, I'd find out. And I'd succeed. Knowledge to me was the highest goal. I felt beautiful. I felt more than competent. And sex! Just thinking about sex was euphoric...


    I guess I could see why it'd be addictive. I haven't done em in more than a year but if had connections... icon_razz.gif
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    Nov 24, 2008 8:03 AM GMT
    MY BEST FRIEND WAS ON ADDERALL FOR AWHILE.

    HE BECAME IN SUCH NEED FOR IT, THAT HE HAD HEALTH PROBLEMS FROM IT.

    I THINK THE STRESSES OF GETTING THERE IS WHAT CAUSES PEOPLE TO DO THE THINGS THEY DO.

    LIKE YOU HE STARTED DOING STUFF THE NATURAL WAY, IT HELPED BUT BECAUSE HE WAS ON ADDERALL, HE MISSES IT.

    ITS A CHEMICAL THING...


    AS FOR ROIDS, GUYS WANT TO GET BIG AND GET THERE FAST. BEING 23 I WOULDNT NEED ROIDS. I WILL BE HONEST, I USED SUPPS THAT HELP RELEASH YOUR OWN TESTOSTERONE.

    I THINK THEY HAVE VITIMINS FOR ADHD AS WELL, EVER THINK OF THAT. THERE IS ALWAYS A NATURAL WAY TO GO ABOUT THINGS, YOU JUST GOT TO RESEARCH BEFORE YOU START SOMETHING.
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    Nov 24, 2008 2:59 PM GMT


    We're finding it interesting that unlike Olympics there is no drug testing for education/exams.

    Like 'roids, we feel these 'smarter person' drugs are temporary improvements and crutches. Are you still as smart and focused when you have to eventually (don't kid yourself, you will if you plan on living a long life) stop taking them?

    We don't think so.

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    Nov 24, 2008 3:04 PM GMT


    Here:

    Short and Long Term Psychological Effects

    * paranoia
    * psychotic episodes
    * anxiety
    * severe depression (upon withdrawal)

    Adverse Physical Effects from Short Term Use

    * nausea/vomiting
    * insomnia
    * weight loss
    * palpitations
    * headaches

    Chronic Physical Effects from Long Term Use

    * convulsions
    * irregular heartbeat
    * fevers
    * malnutrition/weight loss
    * tremors and muscle twitching


    ....so then, the makers of Prozac etc and the psychiatric industry will kept busy and wealthy, not to mention the entire health-care industry. No wonder so many 'business' oriented politicians up here want to see health-care go private.
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    Nov 24, 2008 3:05 PM GMT


    It's like making intelligent people a 'disposable' commodity.
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    Nov 24, 2008 3:12 PM GMT
    I'm not sure about this taking adderall (amphetamine) for people without ADD. I have taken this for my ADD and prefer it over ritalin, but besides allowing you to work more I don't know if anyone can rightly say that is will improve your grades. Also being a schedule 2 drug I would think there could be other problems.

    I have never had a problem with it being habit forming but don't know why people would take it if they didn't have to. Other than getting a really bad headache once when I accidentally took twice my dosage, there are side affects. It can make me moody sometimes and can sometimes have weird affects my energy levels if I don't take it on the right schedule. It can be tricky getting the dosages right.

    If you just need to be able to stay awake and alert I would think something like modafinil (indicated for narcolepsy sometimes) would be more appropriate, but am not sure what conditions a doctor would prescribe it for. I have had thoughts of taking it for my ADD.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ModafinilModafinil (Provigil) is a stimulant-like drug manufactured by Cephalon, and is approved by the FDA for the treatment of narcolepsy, shift work sleep disorder,[1] and obstructive sleep apnea.[2] Modafinil, like other stimulants, increases the release of monoamines but also elevates hypothalamic histamine levels,[3] leading some researchers to consider Modafinil a "wakefulness promoting agent" rather than a classic amphetamine-like stimulant (as evidenced by the difference in c-fos distribution caused by modafinil as compared to amphetamine).[4] Modafinil is also indicated, though not approved, in the treatment of Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD),[5] depression,[6] cocaine addiction,[7] Parkinson's Disease,[8] schizophrenia,[9] and disease-related fatigue.[10][11] By law, however, Cephalon is not allowed to market Modafinil for conditions other than those officially approved by the FDA. (in the U.S.)[12]
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    Nov 24, 2008 3:18 PM GMT

    Hey ActiveAndFit,

    We think Adderall is a good drug when used very carefully and under the watchful eye and monitoring of a physician.

    It becomes problematic when it's used for things outside it's intended purpose when it's (most often) abused. Example, in colleges etc where alcohol use is rampant, it's often used as a way to avoid the depression of hang-overs. Great. It also reduces the sensations of intoxication, meaning the drinker can drink more and impress everyone else. Cool.

    What a mess.
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    Nov 24, 2008 3:30 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    Hey ActiveAndFit,

    We think Adderall is a good drug when used very carefully and under the watchful eye and monitoring of a physician.

    It becomes problematic when it's used for things outside it's intended purpose when it's (most often) abused. Example, in colleges etc where alcohol use is rampant, it's often used as a way to avoid the depression of hang-overs. Great. It also reduces the sensations of intoxication, meaning the drinker can drink more and impress everyone else. Cool.

    What a mess.
    I agree. I was very happy with generic 30mg adderall which I would break up into quarters and take in bits as I needed. Some doctors don't seem to be very good with understanding proper dosing as ADD can vary greatly from person to person.

    I cannot say that I know what it does (other than what you pointed out) for people without ADD. But I would not recommend it as you mentioned either. If there are issues with fatigue then Modafinil prescribed by a doctor would probably be much safer (as it is not amphetamine) , and legal if prescribed by a doctor. It is sometimes given to people with odd work schedules to control fatigue associated with that.

    There have been some interesting articles about how common drug abuse can be in the academic community. Sounds like too much unhealthy pressure to excel to me.
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    Nov 24, 2008 4:49 PM GMT
    Naturally occurring hormones such as testosterone are hardly in the same class as amphetamines.

    Amphetamines are clearly destructive at virtually any dose level.

    Stuff like Provigil is a bit better (works in a different way), but is still in patent and incredibly expensive.

    I find a certain sick irony from those here (see above) that would condemn something natural, that improves overall health, performance, and assists in recovery, with Adderall.

    Not a single agency, nor report...not one...recommended to Congress that AAS be controlled, not even the DEA. Despite that, Congress voted to disregard 50 years of study by the Army (the bill was passed in 1990), and control them anyway. Now, even with another 18 years of study under their belts with the same results, and the endos docs recommending less control, the penalties were increased this past year.

    Pot and amphetamines are hardly in the same class either.

    Adderall is meth, basically, for those not in the know. It's hardly a drug that helps your own body to recovery from stress and prevents disease. To even stick it in the same discussion as meth is almost crazy. Stuff that works on your dopamine receptors (fries them), and on your adrenaline, can actually rewire your brain. Not to say that systems aren't changed in use of AAS, but, in a much different way (recovery at the cellular level). In older ages groups AAS can mean the difference between a vibrant, active healthy, lifestyle, and a lethargic, depressed one.

    Comparing something that promotes good health, with something that destroys it...I don't know.

    Certainly, amphetamines, are over-prescribed.

    This would be a case of gross distortion and what I like to call selective ethics. One of the same folks here that went on about juice, was the first to say if he could get addys (that he had gotten from his ex-manager), he'd walk down the path of being a meth head.

    Personally, I only take a bit of aspirin, and some ibuprofen, and some coffee, and get some alcohol once in a while. I've had a HRT script for years, and, after getting on it, got OFF ALL my bp (which wasn't really high to begin with), statin, drugs....and saw my BP and cholesterol IMPROVE (although my cholesterol is very good because of my diet anyway), as well as my general sense of well-being. My doctor LITERALLY threw them (the old person drugs) in the trash, in a classic example of using the power of AAS, and HRT, for disease prevention, rather than a butt load of mega-billion dollar drugs for disease treatment. My story is NOT unique.

    I'm not a person who takes well to street drugs. I'm not a person that takes well to amphetamines. I have no desire to be disconnected from reality in the way that those drugs to it. To compare AAS to those drugs is a stretch, even on the very best day. As I said, naturally-occurring testosterone is nothing like amphetamines.

    Now, I've said this many times: if we're concerned about saving lives, we need to deal with fat people. They cost the most. Nearly 7 MILLION fat folks die needlessly every year, as compared to 3000 from all illicit drug use COMBINED. AAS have NEVER had a death attributed to them, and AAS, rank near dead last on ER visits. (Watch the movie, Bigger, Stronger, Faster, or research this on your own.) The endos docs certainly would not be recommending the non-control of AAS it they thought it was a risk to their malpractice insurance, And, finally, rumor, after rumor, has been debunked on the garbage / misinformation campaign on AAS, time after time.

    I don't think the U.S. takes the proper approach on pyscho-drugs. As in most of Europe, and as in Canada, putting folks in jail is draconian. It should be treated as a health care issue.

    When I take my shirt off, the fat person says I'm flaunting it. When the fat person takes his shirt off, he's just staying cool.

    Folks throw logic and science out the door in their thought process. They believe fables, and myth. E.g. false value systems / cults / religion. Yet, something that can most clearly kill you and or make you sick, say tobacco, or being fat is o.k., when beyond any reasonable doubt, they are major killers in our society.
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    Nov 24, 2008 4:57 PM GMT
    My first boyfriend was on this. He abused it, though.

    Even on his normal dosage he was prone to mood swings. When he was off of the pills he was fine.

    He eventually had to ween himself off of them. Went though all of the typical withdrawl symptoms.

    Why anyone would take this stuff just to focus more in school is beyond me. It's a really harsh drug, essentially a lower version of speed with all of the drawbacks.
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    Nov 24, 2008 6:20 PM GMT
    meninlove said

    We're finding it interesting that unlike Olympics there is no drug testing for education/exams.

    Like 'roids, we feel these 'smarter person' drugs are temporary improvements and crutches. Are you still as smart and focused when you have to eventually (don't kid yourself, you will if you plan on living a long life) stop taking them?

    We don't think so.



    In sports there are drug tests, in the world there are not, all the world focuses on is who takes home the gold.

    Something like an MCAT, GMAT, LSAT the fact that they people are doing it means they have the capacity to do well in grad school. So if they take something to push your self up a percentage point or two you can gain a competitive edge, one that might make all the difference in out preform someone else.

    These tests aren't designed to make sure you meet basic requirements they are to be competitive.

    Think of it this way, In the Olympics everyone has already passed they qualifier to run the race. They only need a second or two competitive edge
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    Nov 24, 2008 6:30 PM GMT
    I might add that technology has been part of sport since the beginning.

    The technology of sport is quite a bit different from meth, and its cousins, though. True, some folks ARE helped by Adderall, but, I'm of a strong opinion that those drugs are over-prescribed and over used. Meth cooks your brain, period. That's NOT to say that AAS don't effect the brain, too. The former seems to be in a more destructive way, however.

    I suppose one could make the argument of using technology to do better in school (meth).

    I also suppose that one decides risks versus benefits (that real meat of the issue).

    We all benefit from technology....computers, penicillin, birth control, surgery, insulin therapy, and so on.

    Interesting ethics questions. Who gets to decide?

    I think a general rule is that do the benefits outweigh the risks? With AAS the risks are very minimal (almost like coffee), where with meth, the risks would be substantially higher. Nonetheless, for 100K a year MBA job...is it worth the risk? I don't know that I would be the one to say no, or yes. It's a hard question when you really get to the heart of it.

    One man's poison is another man's joy.

    One thing I do know: folks shouldn't rot in jail for using, or possessing, either.

    Folks SHOULD be copable for stupid shit: property destruction, violence, driving and drinking and so on. Putting someone in jail over AAS, or Adderall, is just nuts.

    The movie "Bigger, Stronger, Faster a product of American life" is themed along these very lines.
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    Nov 24, 2008 6:41 PM GMT
    So case in point society says it's acceptable take a highly destructive drug if your motives are considered moral, ie. competing academically.

    But it's unacceptable to take drugs proven a lot safer if your motives are considered possibly shallow. When competing in fact, life is so much about aesthetics and a dedication to health and fitness is considered a mirrored in a dedication to other pursuits.
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    Nov 24, 2008 6:47 PM GMT


    we'd suggest anyone talking steroids for a prolonged period of time go for a dye-contrast CT and MRI to determine how badly the heart's left ventricle has been damaged or restructured.

    With no offense intended to anyone using AAS, but more of concern (many medical profs in both side of our family) there is a raft of technical information available online that will explain both the pros and cons of AAS use. It's our opinion that the cons far outweigh the pros.

    Here's an example from the Mayo Clinic;
    Androstenedione

    Androstenedione (andro) is a hormone produced by the adrenal glands, ovaries and testes. It's a precursor hormone that's normally converted to testosterone and estradiol in both men and women.

    Manufacturers of synthetic androstenedione, through vigorous marketing efforts, have claimed that their products increase your body's production of testosterone. According to proponents of andro supplements, an elevated level of testosterone allows athletes to train harder and recover more quickly.

    Scientific studies that refute these claims are now emerging. In fact, these studies show that supplemental androstenedione doesn't increase testosterone and that your muscles don't get stronger with andro use. The Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 classified andro as a controlled substance, adding it to the list of banned anabolic steroids and making its use as a performance-enhancing drug illegal.

    Side effects of andro differ for men and women. In men it can actually decrease the production of testosterone while increasing the production of estrogen. Side effects in men include acne, diminished sperm production, shrinking of the testicles and enlargement of the breasts. In women, side effects include acne and masculinization, such as deepening of the voice and male-pattern baldness. Andro might also stunt your child's growth.

    In men and women, supplemental androstenedione can decrease high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol (the "good" cholesterol). Lower HDL levels put you at greater risk of heart attack and stroke.
    Creatine

    Creatine monohydrate is a compound produced by your body that helps release energy in your muscles. Creatine is a naturally occurring compound, but you also can ingest creatine from protein-rich foods such as meat or fish, or you can take a nutritional supplement. Supplements are available over the counter.

    Unlike androstenedione, scientific research indicates that creatine may have some benefit — it can produce small gains in short-term bursts of power.

    "Most of the research points to small improvements in short-term power activities like improving maximum-weight bench press or increasing speed during cycling sprints of very short duration," says Edward Laskowski, M.D., a physical medicine and rehabilitation specialist at Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn., and co-director of Mayo Clinic's Sports Medicine Center. "Some studies have shown an increase in lean muscle mass with creatine. As a result, there's a lot of press on creatine producing steroid-like results without the side effects."

    Creatine helps muscles make and circulate more adenosine triphosphate (ATP). ATP is used for quick, explosive bursts of activity, as in weightlifting or sprinting. Creatine also reduces energy waste products — such as lactic acid — that can cause muscle fatigue. As a result, creatine is purported to enhance performance and decrease fatigue. But there's no evidence that creatine enhances performance in aerobic or endurance sports.

    Your liver produces about 2 grams of creatine each day. You can also get creatine from the meat in your diet. Creatine is stored in your muscles, and levels are relatively easily maintained. Because your kidneys remove excess creatine, the value of supplements to someone who already has a high muscle creatine content is questionable.

    Possible side effects of creatine that can decrease athletic performance include:

    * Stomach cramps
    * Muscle cramps
    * Nausea
    * Vomiting
    * Diarrhea

    Weight gain is a known side effect of creatine — one that is sought after by athletes who want to increase their size. But with prolonged creatine use, weight gain is more likely the result of water retention than an increase in muscle tissue. Water is drawn into your muscle tissue, away from other parts of your body. This puts you at risk of dehydration.

    High-dose creatine use may potentially damage your:

    * Kidneys
    * Liver
    * Heart

    It's unknown what kind of effect taking creatine has over the long term, especially on teens or younger children. Dosage levels vary widely, depending on which product you use and how much creatine you take.

    Since creatine isn't regulated by the FDA, you can't be sure of the purity of creatine supplements you buy on the market. Studies have found varying mixtures of creatine in different creatine products. And some of the inactive ingredients mixed in with the creatine may cause significant side effects, such as allergic reactions.

    The bottom line is that the safety of taking creatine is questionable. Most studies involving creatine use examine the performance-enhancing aspects, and side effects are generally not well-reported.

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    Nov 24, 2008 7:21 PM GMT
    no! no more! not a-fucking-gain!!!

    i swear to god i'm getting sick of some of these convos getting repeated...

    i've heard it all before...

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    Nov 24, 2008 7:27 PM GMT
    Doping with either Adderall or steroids is exactly the same in principle. They also test for the presence of stimulants at the Olympics, too.

    Adderall is a drug that will royally fuck you up if you're not careful, or you just don't agree with it. As with any amphetamine drug, long term use will make you develop intense anxiety, paranoia, compulsive behaviors, illogical patterns of thinking, unstable mood, greatly suppressed appetite, erratic behaviors, ritualistic/obsessive behaviors, sleep deprivation, emotional mismanagement, and the list goes on.

    Short term use can also screw you up pretty good when you take a heavy dose: you get hot, sweaty, your blood pressure rises, you become erratic, develop a dangerously unstable mood, and you become so obsessive you won't come away from the task at hand for hours even for eating, drinking, or using the restroom.

    Most children who are prescribed an amphetamine for ADD and ADHD normally exhibit an intense focus that allows them to get school work done, but not all of them focus towards school work. A friend of mine in high school just developed an obsession with Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

    When you think about it, it all comes down to whether the benefit exceeds the risk and who can afford the better diet, chemicals, trainers, etc.
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    Nov 24, 2008 8:43 PM GMT
    flex89Most children who are prescribed an amphetamine for ADD and ADHD normally exhibit an intense focus that allows them to get school work done, but not all of them focus towards school work. A friend of mine in high school just developed an obsession with Aqua Teen Hunger Force.


    Whoa. You said something I thought was funny. icon_wink.gif
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    Nov 24, 2008 11:05 PM GMT
    chuckystud3 saidThis would be a case of gross distortion and what I like to call selective ethics. One of the same folks here that went on about juice, was the first to say if he could get addys (that he had gotten from his ex-manager), he'd walk down the path of being a meth head.


    Oh Chuckystud, the reincarnated Roy Cohn. It'd be a waste of time to argue with you when just about everyone on this site cept your buddy hates your guts.

    But for anyone who isn't a complete jackass and doesn't know Chuckystud3 and his antics, I've always preached moderation, individuality, pursuit of knowledge and empathy, If proof is needed its all on the messageboards.
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    Nov 24, 2008 11:10 PM GMT
    Muscles
    (Michael Jackson)

    She said she wants a man
    To always understand
    But that's alright for her
    Still it ain't enough for me

    She said she wants a guy
    To keep her satisfied
    But that's alright for her
    But it ain't enough for me

    Still, I don't care if he's young or old
    (Just make him beautiful)
    I just want someone I can hold on to

    I want muscles
    All, all over his body
    (Make him strong enough from his head down to his toes)
    I want muscles
    All, all over his body
    (Make him strong enough from his head down to his toes)

    They say they have to see
    His real personality
    But that's alright for them
    Still it ain't enough for me

    I need what the eyes can see, ah
    (His anatomy)
    If that's alright for them
    Still it ain't enough for me

    I don't care if he's young or old
    Just make him beautiful
    I just want some strong man to hold on to

    I want muscles
    All, all over his body
    (Make him strong enough from his head down to his toes)
    I want muscles
    All over his body
    (Make him strong enough from his head down to his toes)

    Muscle man, I want to love you
    In the sun, oil on your body
    Come with me, high in the cascades
    Let this be, we've got this thing made
    Lost at sea, hide the desert
    Stay with me, you won't regret it
    Take this love, so deep to swim in
    Come to me, and let the love in

    She said she wants a man
    To always understand
    But that's alright for her
    Still it ain't enough for me

    I don't care if he's young or old
    (Just make him beautiful)
    I just want someone I can hold on to

    I want muscles
    All, all over his body
    (Make him strong enough from his head down to his toes)
    I want muscles
    All over him, all over him
    I want muscles
    All, all over his body
    I want muscles

    I want all I can get
    All over him, all over him
    I want muscles, muscles, muscles
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    Nov 24, 2008 11:11 PM GMT
    LVH occurs across the board in most weight-trained athletes, whether, or not, they use AAS, or not, for those who aren't in the know.

    It's easy to quote this or that, but, you have to make sure you are being honest in your statements.