Suicide question....

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    Sep 29, 2013 6:13 AM GMT
    WHY is suicide considered "bad" or "wrong"? Of all the things in the world to own and control.....why not your own life? icon_confused.gif
    .....no, I am not looking to end it....
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Sep 29, 2013 6:16 AM GMT
    Well for one, suicide is not controlling your life, it is ending it. You don't control anything after that either. Who ever finds the body determines what to do with it then some one else determines hot to dress it and comb the hair or whether to burn it or bury it. Where is there any control. Suicide is being completely out of control. Suicide is giving up complete control.
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    Sep 29, 2013 6:16 AM GMT
    I'm not sure about labeling suicide "bad" or "wrong", but I would consider it "sad" and "tragic".
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Sep 29, 2013 6:19 AM GMT
    and if you fuck it up and end up veg out in a bed ... you can't even control what you eat or see ... while you are alive, that is the only time you are in control ... but you have to take the initiative to control it.
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    Sep 29, 2013 6:56 AM GMT
    I asked this question several times myself in the past...and one day serendipitously I found an answer to this question.

    We all are part of this world no matter how insignificant we are.
    It was mentioned in one of the yoga(discipline) scriptures called Karma-yoga(discipline of work). I can't point out to the exact text but it has been mentioned there.

    In helping the world we're helping ourselves
    In hurting the world we're hurting ourselves

    By world I mean whole human race...

    Take climate change for example, we're struggling to fight the corporations and investing a lot in scientific research, campaigns, petitions, etc....but for what? so that we can save the world. But what will we gain bt saving the world? Nothing but, indirectly we're saving ourselves. someone can say 'I don't care about my life, so what's in there that I'm saving myself'...my answer is, in helping others you'll be satisfied emotionally and spiritually too(if you're a believer). This satisfaction brings you happiness. After-all all humans struggle for this happiness consciously or unconsciously. This example can be observed at the gross level.
    It can also e seen at the minutest level...for example donating blood to a stranger, feeding a beggar.
    In this way we're helping others so that we help ourselves to attain happiness and satisfaction.

    Similarly when we hurt someone we are hurt too.
    For example at the gross level, look at Hitler and his fate
    At minutest/singular level, look at a thief and his fate, they're bound to suffer for they seek happiness by hurting someone.

    So, To answer your question "WHY is suicide considered "bad" or "wrong"?"
    Though suicide is seen at the minute level and doesn't affect the suicide of one man to the whole population, it's still considered bad because

    In helping myself I'm helping the world
    In hurting myself I'm hurting the world

    How?
    If I for example helping myself to live a moral life, I would definitely inspire at-least one person(like my BF inspired me) or whole humanity(Like Gandhi inspiring the world) towards morality.

    Lets take a man who's a chain smoker...he's hurting himself for the sake of bodily pleasures but he's also hurting the world through many ways...land pollution through crops that grow his tobacco, second hand smoking which harms others, etc.etc. all these leads to suffering of others at the end, there's no doubt in that.
    (Don't confuse pleasure with happiness/good...they both look similar but differ a lot)

    Though its after affects may not be seen in killing myself, I'm killing a small part of the world which means I'm hurting you all. This is why suicide is considered bad. It doesn't matter how insignificant its after affects are.

    Hope this clears your doubt.
  • AMoonHawk

    Posts: 11406

    Sep 29, 2013 7:27 AM GMT
    it's considered bad because of those left behind who are left to deal with the sadness and the loss of someone they loved and to deal with the 'what if's' and 'what could I have done', not just for a day but for the rest of their live's
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    Sep 29, 2013 7:32 AM GMT
    Death has never shocked me. I don't label suicide bad or wrong, it's not my business what others do with their life and it shouldn't be anyone's business.
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    Sep 29, 2013 8:02 AM GMT
    Sporty_g saidWHY is suicide considered "bad" or "wrong"? Of all the things in the world to own and control.....why not your own life? icon_confused.gif
    .....no, I am not looking to end it....


    I'm going to spend a lot of time thinking about the topic of suicide and will save more enlightening and better written postings for a later period (as I sort of need to anyway at the moment, and I hope I can write this post clearly), but let just say that suicide is highly dependent on context (the motivation or purpose behind it), the state of mind of the individual that does it (and perhaps even who the individual is himself, like what class the person belongs to or even the person's gender) to ever be considered appropriate at individual or social levels. For example, if I was a samurai who had sworn a blood oath to my lord and had just failed him, out of honor, and to avoid shaming my name, my family, etc, I would commit seppuku, the cutting of my own bowels open, which was an acceptable practice for centuries in Japan. In Ancient Rome, there was the example of Cato the Younger who likewise cut his intestines open and bled to death as a literal F U to Julius Caesar as he won the civil war and was going to continue on to his dictatorship (before himself dying by way of murder soon after that). And why certain individuals are considered noble when they kill themselves, or in this case those who commit to their own disembowelment, is that the action is clear cut, the state of mind is not in question, there is often no case of mental illness involved, there is an element of self-sacrifice, there's a social expectation of it, there is attached honor and dignity to it, and in the case of disembowelment, it's really a lot of effort to kill yourself that way. On the other hand, and ignoring cases of euthanasia and cases of accidental suicide (like auto-erotic asphyxiation, like how some kung-fu show star killed himself by), the average case of suicide is often done as a way out from mental suffering, and the path taken is always done with ease in mind. And most people who consider suicide are the kind of people who "can't take it any more" and whether it can be seen as an active or a passive action (as indicated by others here), are suffering from some kind of low mood caused from any number of reasons, be it some kind of bad situation they got themselves in, failed expectations, some kind of regret or anguish of some kind, chronic chemical imbalance issues, etc, etc, etc, etc, but the key thing about these people is that they are not operating within a rational state of mind unlike the examples mentioned above and that their reactions are not being tempered well. And in possessing a non-rational state of mind, they can be seen as having a reduced capacity or complete incapacity for judging whether or not their suicide, or possible suicide, is an appropriate course for them to take since they really don't know any better but to simply end the pain.
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    Sep 29, 2013 8:39 AM GMT
    Harry7785 saidI asked this question several times myself in the past...and one day serendipitously I found an answer to this question.

    We all are part of this world no matter how insignificant we are.
    It was mentioned in one of the yoga(discipline) scriptures called Karma-yoga(discipline of work). I can't point out to the exact text but it has been mentioned there.

    In helping the world we're helping ourselves
    In hurting the world we're hurting ourselves

    By world I mean whole human race...

    Take climate change for example, we're struggling to fight the corporations and investing a lot in scientific research, campaigns, petitions, etc....but for what? so that we can save the world. But what will we gain bt saving the world? Nothing but, indirectly we're saving ourselves. someone can say 'I don't care about my life, so what's in there that I'm saving myself'...my answer is, in helping others you'll be satisfied emotionally and spiritually too(if you're a believer). This satisfaction brings you happiness. After-all all humans struggle for this happiness consciously or unconsciously. This example can be observed at the gross level.
    It can also e seen at the minutest level...for example donating blood to a stranger, feeding a beggar.
    In this way we're helping others so that we help ourselves to attain happiness and satisfaction.

    Similarly when we hurt someone we are hurt too.
    For example at the gross level, look at Hitler and his fate
    At minutest/singular level, look at a thief and his fate, they're bound to suffer for they seek happiness by hurting someone.

    So, To answer your question "WHY is suicide considered "bad" or "wrong"?"
    Though suicide is seen at the minute level and doesn't affect the suicide of one man to the whole population, it's still considered bad because

    In helping myself I'm helping the world
    In hurting myself I'm hurting the world

    How?
    If I for example helping myself to live a moral life, I would definitely inspire at-least one person(like my BF inspired me) or whole humanity(Like Gandhi inspiring the world) towards morality.

    Lets take a man who's a chain smoker...he's hurting himself for the sake of bodily pleasures but he's also hurting the world through many ways...land pollution through crops that grow his tobacco, second hand smoking which harms others, etc.etc. all these leads to suffering of others at the end, there's no doubt in that.
    (Don't confuse pleasure with happiness/good...they both look similar but differ a lot)

    Though its after affects may not be seen in killing myself, I'm killing a small part of the world which means I'm hurting you all. This is why suicide is considered bad. It doesn't matter how insignificant its after affects are.

    Hope this clears your doubt.


    Ghandi went on numerous hunger strikes though and would have undoubtedly died if things didn't turn out they way he wanted them to be...
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    Sep 29, 2013 8:50 AM GMT
    I'll save a later time talking about Orphelia from Shakespeare's Hamlet and how many men are like Orphelia themselves, but let me just reiterate that the act of suicide is truly reserved for people of reason (which the vast majority of people are not, and combined possibly with deliberate patience and expectation towards duty), much how I view voting should be. And generally, from what I could observe from reading things and just knowing people, is that those who consider suicide and are not people of reason, don't possess an internal capacity to deal or react well to their situations or to their chronic depression, and must seek and acquire exogenous means to deal with this (or in other words, they need help from other people, or possibly 10 other ways like medication).
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    Sep 29, 2013 8:59 AM GMT
    Useless_Trollileo saidI've unfortunately fallen back into the mentality that I shouldn't kill myself because I'd be a bigger burden on people dead than alive.


    Good.



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    Sep 29, 2013 9:01 AM GMT
    It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. It does create a lot of pain, suffering, grieving and loss for those left behind.

    Plus, they have to settle and deal with all your physical stuff (i.e. pay off debts, pay for the funeral - a lot of life insurance policies disqualify suicide, figure out what to do with all the physical items you've accumulated.) Many times they are left dealing with the problem you didn't want to tackle.

    And yes, I have had to have that same pep talk with myself - lately.

    So in the end, sometimes we have to choose to accept the circumstances we are in. Do our best to make the right choices that will lead us out of them, then wait to see the next curve ball life throws at us.



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    Sep 29, 2013 9:04 AM GMT
    TheQuest said
    Useless_Trollileo saidI've unfortunately fallen back into the mentality that I shouldn't kill myself because I'd be a bigger burden on people dead than alive.


    Good.





    You probably have me on ignore, but if you know how he's used this statement before, it's a "bad" thing as it indicates one thing, but it's a "good" thing that it indicates that he has a way of coping with it.
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    Sep 29, 2013 9:08 AM GMT
    Unnamed5 said
    Harry7785 said

    Ghandi went on numerous hunger strikes though and would have undoubtedly died if things didn't turn out they way he wanted them to be...

    And your point is....?
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    Sep 29, 2013 9:10 AM GMT
    Sporty_g saidWHY is suicide considered "bad" or "wrong"? Of all the things in the world to own and control.....why not your own life? icon_confused.gif
    .....no, I am not looking to end it....



    ^ Great, questionicon_exclaim.gificon_exclaim.gificon_exclaim.gificon_idea.gificon_exclaim.gificon_idea.gif


    - Needless to also ask why it goes as far as actually being " - Against the law - " .. . Wtf are they gunna do, sue youicon_question.gificon_question.gificon_question.gificon_idea.gificon_eek.gif

    ^ - I mean other than insurance-fraud I just don't understand why the need for ridiculousness within the wild-extent of the law regarding this, - logically made it as far as it actually did by - ' not being allowed to kill yourself, because its against the law '
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    Sep 29, 2013 9:13 AM GMT
    Unnamed5 said
    TheQuest said
    Useless_Trollileo saidI've unfortunately fallen back into the mentality that I shouldn't kill myself because I'd be a bigger burden on people dead than alive.


    Good.





    You probably have me on ignore, but if you know how he's used this statement before, it's a "bad" thing as it indicates one thing, but it's a "good" thing that it indicates that he has a way of coping with it.


    It's good that he had chosen to live. Whatever the reason.
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    Sep 29, 2013 9:36 AM GMT
    Not sure how to answer your question but as a healthcare worker, I've taken care of patients with suicidal tendencies. In my opinion, these people should automatically have a Do Not Resuscitate order. Think about it! If someone's intention is to die and if he/she goes through cardiopulmonary arrest, then why do CPR on them? Doesn't make any sense!
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    Sep 29, 2013 9:41 AM GMT
    TheQuest said
    Unnamed5 said
    TheQuest said
    Useless_Trollileo saidI've unfortunately fallen back into the mentality that I shouldn't kill myself because I'd be a bigger burden on people dead than alive.


    Good.





    You probably have me on ignore, but if you know how he's used this statement before, it's a "bad" thing as it indicates one thing, but it's a "good" thing that it indicates that he has a way of coping with it.


    It's good that he had chosen to live. Whatever the reason.


    I'm of the opinion that his future is something that he could handle really well, as I'm sure he'll be equipped with ways of dealing with things properly at that point in time, but it's his handling of the present that is a problem for him (or for that matter a lot of other people here too), and more specifically of how to handle a rut that he's in.
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    Sep 29, 2013 9:53 AM GMT
    Erik101 saidNot sure how to answer your question but as a healthcare worker, I've taken care of patients with suicidal tendencies. In my opinion, these people should automatically have a Do Not Resuscitate order. Think about it! If someone's intention is to die and if he/she goes through cardiopulmonary arrest, then why do CPR on them? Doesn't make any sense!


    If only DNR's were meant to remain as DNR's and not okays for putting down people like dogs. Slow euthanasia through respiratory depression by continued morphine drip is one of America's best kept secrets, and probably is, on a technical note anyway, the largest contributory to death for people in America (I mean if the CDC can include obesity as the second largest "disease" that is responsible for death in America, one could die from a poisonous snake bite or fall out of a window, but as long as one's BMI indicates obesity at death, they died from the complications of obesity, right?, But now I'm stating that you could find a more direct cause and effect relationship between being administered morphine and death in hospitals/hospices even though the person had cancer or is in old age).
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    Sep 29, 2013 10:00 AM GMT
    Harry7785 said
    Unnamed5 said
    Harry7785 said

    Ghandi went on numerous hunger strikes though and would have undoubtedly died if things didn't turn out they way he wanted them to be...

    And your point is....?


    We'll isn't Ghandi's hunger strikes, done to otherwise help settle the problems between post independent Pakistan and India, seen as hurting himself or causing great bodily harm or distress to himself?
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    Sep 29, 2013 10:05 AM GMT
    Unnamed5 said
    Erik101 saidNot sure how to answer your question but as a healthcare worker, I've taken care of patients with suicidal tendencies. In my opinion, these people should automatically have a Do Not Resuscitate order. Think about it! If someone's intention is to die and if he/she goes through cardiopulmonary arrest, then why do CPR on them? Doesn't make any sense!


    If only DNR's were meant to remain as DNR's and not okays for putting down people like dogs. Slow euthanasia through respiratory depression by continued morphine drip is one of America's best kept secrets, and probably is, on a technical note anyway, the largest contributory to death for people in America (I mean if the CDC can include obesity as the second largest "disease" that is responsible for death in America, one could die from a poisonous snake bite or fall out of a window, but as long as one's BMI indicates obesity at death, they died from the complications of obesity, right?, But now I'm stating that you could find a more direct cause and effect relationship between being administered morphine and death in hospitals/hospices even though the person had cancer or is in old age).


    What the hell does a morphine drip, euthanasia and obesity have anything to do with my post? I'm talking about a suicidal patient who all of a sudden has a heart attack or respiratory arrest.
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    Sep 29, 2013 10:13 AM GMT
    Unnamed5 said
    Harry7785 said
    Unnamed5 said
    Harry7785 said

    Ghandi went on numerous hunger strikes though and would have undoubtedly died if things didn't turn out they way he wanted them to be...

    And your point is....?


    We'll isn't Ghandi's hunger strikes, done to otherwise help settle the problems between post independent Pakistan and India, seen as hurting himself or causing great bodily harm or distress to himself?

    That's a very good question!
    You see, when I said harming oneself...I did mentioned " for the sake of bodily pleasures" and Gandhi did harmed himself but there's no ego in it. he didn't did for himself or for his personal motives.
    He said that it's better to harm our-self through non-violence (only hunger strike is consider as non-violent) if it's required than hurting an enemy by violence. This is ego-less there is no selfish desire in it, he's working for the sake of whole nation and for the truth, not for himself.
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    Sep 29, 2013 11:17 AM GMT
    Buckyou saidDeath has never shocked me. I don't label suicide bad or wrong, it's not my business what others do with their life and it shouldn't be anyone's business.

    This right here. Most people are committing suicide daily, from smoking to eating crappy foods, knowing doing those activities will kill them, but slowly. We all die, live with it.
  • jo2hotbod

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    Sep 29, 2013 11:33 AM GMT
    Suicide is murder even if it is of yourself it's still murder
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    Sep 29, 2013 1:14 PM GMT