Still Want Single-Payer? Imagine A Government "Shutdown" With Single-Payer

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 04, 2013 3:34 PM GMT
    Imagine if sometime in the future we run into a situation like we have today: The Federal government responsible for making all payments to hospitals, doctors and pharmacies.

    And they don't pay because, in the words of Harry Reid (D-NV):

    "Why would we want to do that?"



    There have been 17 government "shutdowns" in the past 30 years or so. Some have occurred with a Democrat President and a Democrat Congress.

    Do you really want to give the Federal government and politicians that much power over you?
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    Oct 04, 2013 4:23 PM GMT

    Canada: single payer system.

    READ: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/national/Save+chuckle+over+America+shutdown+have+forgotten+Canada/8989503/story.html

    And yes this is an in-favour-of-Conservatives biased article, so you can shut up in advance with your accusations of lefty. I agree with the author, and you should pay attention to what he says in the beginning about your GOP.

    During these shutdowns, medical service continued as usual, just as your beloved GOP politicians continue to feed at the trough.
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    Oct 04, 2013 5:26 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    Canada: single payer system.

    READ: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/national/Save+chuckle+over+America+shutdown+have+forgotten+Canada/8989503/story.html

    And yes this is an in-favour-of-Conservatives biased article, so you can shut up in advance with your accusations of lefty. I agree with the author, and you should pay attention to what he says in the beginning about your GOP.

    During these shutdowns, medical service continued as usual, just as your beloved GOP politicians continue to feed at the trough.


    When was your last government shutdown?
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    Oct 04, 2013 6:09 PM GMT
    failscarf said
    franktats said
    meninlove said
    Canada: single payer system.

    READ: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/national/Save+chuckle+over+America+shutdown+have+forgotten+Canada/8989503/story.html

    And yes this is an in-favour-of-Conservatives biased article, so you can shut up in advance with your accusations of lefty. I agree with the author, and you should pay attention to what he says in the beginning about your GOP.

    During these shutdowns, medical service continued as usual, just as your beloved GOP politicians continue to feed at the trough.


    When was your last government shutdown?


    When the GOP tried to block their healthcare?


    Democrats shut down our government over the abortion issue.

    As I stated earlier: There have been 17 government "shutdowns" in the past 30 years or so. Some have occurred with a Democrat President and a Democrat Congress.
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Oct 04, 2013 7:13 PM GMT
    This thread just highlights the cognitive dissonance of the Republican Party. People who want single payer don't imagine a shutdown, because the people who want single payer would never shutdown the government and rob those reliant on government healthcare access to health.

    The reason the government is shutdown now is because Republicans are insisting on taking away the Affordable Care Act. If Republicans are concerned about people's health, they should fund the government and fund a healthcare bill with single payer.

    Moreover, the reason there is not single payer, or even a public medicare option, is because -- wait for it -- the Affordable Care Act is a compromise bill. Democrats gave up single payer and a public option in an attempt to negotiate with selfish, recalcitrant Republicans. Instead these Republican hypocrites are now calling the ACA -- which is based on conservative healthcare proposals -- socialism. That's how dishonest conservatives are.

    So thanks for highlighting the fact that Republicans that the Republican rationale for a shutdown is false. The conservative lie that Obama won't negotiate on healthcare is a ruse: Obamacare IS a compromise -- that's why it has no public option or single payer.
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    Oct 04, 2013 7:55 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete saidThis thread just highlights the cognitive dissonance of the Republican Party. People who want single payer don't imagine a shutdown


    What an interesting admission of naivete.


    TroyAthlete saidIf Republicans are concerned about people's health, they should fund the government and fund a healthcare bill with single payer.


    The Republicans in the House (with some Democrats joining them) voted to restore funding to NIH, among other departments and agencies. Harry Reid has said he has no interest in providing help to people in desperate need of government-funded treatment. When asked if he would fund the NIH to allow even just 1 child with cancer to get treated, he answered "Now why would we want to do that?"







    TroyAthlete saidSome concluding nonsense to complete his post.

  • musclmed

    Posts: 3280

    Oct 04, 2013 8:23 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete saidThis thread just highlights the cognitive dissonance of the Republican Party. People who want single payer don't imagine a shutdown, because the people who want single payer would never shutdown the government and rob those reliant on government healthcare access to health.

    The reason the government is shutdown now is because Republicans are insisting on taking away the Affordable Care Act. If Republicans are concerned about people's health, they should fund the government and fund a healthcare bill with single payer.

    Moreover, the reason there is not single payer, or even a public medicare option, is because -- wait for it -- the Affordable Care Act is a compromise bill. Democrats gave up single payer and a public option in an attempt to negotiate with selfish, recalcitrant Republicans. Instead these Republican hypocrites are now calling the ACA -- which is based on conservative healthcare proposals -- socialism. That's how dishonest conservatives are.

    So thanks for highlighting the fact that Republicans that the Republican rationale for a shutdown is false. The conservative lie that Obama won't negotiate on healthcare is a ruse: Obamacare IS a compromise -- that's why it has no public option or single payer.



    I can hear the talking points being typed on the Ipads even now.

    ACA is a failure because we compromised with Republicans.

    It was a ONE SIDED BILL, there was 1 republican vote if that.

    Obama up front told us what his leadership style was when he told Eric Cantor "elections have consequences". So do votes. Its a DEMOCRAT BILL.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3280

    Oct 04, 2013 8:25 PM GMT
    History of Past 17 government shutdowns.


    12 days in 1977, a fight between Senate Democrats about abortion funding. see below.

    September 30 to October 11, 1976 (10 days): President Gerald Ford vetoed a bill that Departments of Education and of Health and Human Services sponsored. He claimed it did not limit spending adequately enough.

    September 30 to October 13, 1977 (12 days): Democratic Senate wanted to loosen Medicaid restrictions to pay for abortions in cases of rape and incest, whereas the Democratic House insisted that money only be used to fund abortions in which the mother’s life is in danger.

    October 31 to November, 9, 1977 (8 days): The temporary bill that ended the shutdown two weeks before had expired so another temporary bill was signed to extend congressional negotiations.

    November 30 to December 9, 1977 (8 days): Yet again, this one revolves around abortion. After the temporary bill expired for the second time, Congress was finally forced to resolve the problem. Congress decided to allow Medicaid to fund abortions for rape, incest, and when the mother’s life is in danger.

    September 30 to October 18, 1978 (18 days): President Jimmy Carter rejected funding for nuclear-powered aircraft carrier and vetoed a public works appropriations bill because he considered both wasteful. There was also another dispute over (you guessed it) abortion.

    September 30 to October 12, 1979 (11 days): For the fifth time, the same abortion debate caused this shutdown, as well as dispute over the Democratic House wanting to raise congressional and senior civil servant pay by 5.5 percent.

    November 20 to November 23, 1981 (2 days): President Ronald Reagan vowed to make drastic budget cuts, which the House claimed did not cut defense spending enough and did not raise pay for civil servants either. Reagan vetoed all proposals; the shutdown commenced.

    September 30 to October 2, 1982 (1 day): There was really no reason for the government to shut down. Congress just didn’t complete the budget in time. There may have been one too many cocktail parties that year.

    December 17 to December 21, 1982 (3 days): President Reagan had another shutdown during his administration. House and Senate negotiators wanted to dedicate $5.4 billion and $1.2 billion in public works spending to create jobs. The House also opposed funding A MX missile program, which was a priority of Reagan’s at the time. In the end, the House and Senate caved in on their plans for jobs and Reagan made a few compromises and signed a bill that ended the shutdown.

    November 10 to November 14, 1983 (3 days): House Democrats passed an amendment that added $1 billon to educational spending while cutting foreign aid below Reagan’s favored limit. Democrats in the House ended up reducing funding for education but kept the cuts to foreign aid. The compromise was seen as a win for both parties.

    September 30 to October 3, 1984 (2 days): The Democratic controlled House linked the a series of amendments to stop crime, a water projects package and a civil rights measure to the spending bill. A three day spending extension was passed while the parties negotiated.

    October 3 to October 5, 1984 (1 day): Well, the three day extension clearly didn’t work out and the government was back to square one. The water projects and the civil rights measure were removed from the spending bill. A comprise was reached on the crime proposal.

    October 16 to October 18, 1986 (1 day): The shutdown was a result of several disagreements between Regan and the House including a ban for companies creating subsidiaries, requiring a portion of the goods and labor used in oil rigs to be from America and one that expands Aid to Families with Dependent Children. Democrats in the House compromised a few of their demands and passed a measure that reopened the government.

    December 18 to December 20, 1987 (1 day): The dispute sparked when Reagan and Democrats could not agree on funding for the Nicaraguan “Contra” militants. A deal was worked out where nonlethal aid would be provided to the Contras.

    October 5 to October 9 1990 (3 days): President George H.W. Bush refused to sign any budget resolution unless it included a deficit reduction plan. The House did not override his veto and the conflict persisted until both the House and Senate created a budget resolution provided an outline for reducing the deficit.

    November 13 to 19, 1995 (5 days): President Clinton’s first government shutdown lasted five days. The Republicans controlled Congress wanted to raise the Medicare premiums.

    December 5, 1995 to January 6, 1996 (21 days): The 17th shutdown was during the Clinton’s presidency and spanned across a 21-day period. At the time, the Republicans who controlled the Senate and the House demanded that the White House propose a seven-year budget plan that would balance the economy using the Congressional Budget Office instead of the Office of Management and Budget Office in the White House. There was controversy with whether or not the budget was being balanced correctly. In the end, the Republicans gave in and passed legislation that would end the shutdown. In return, President Clinton prosed an alternative plan that balanced the budget in seven years.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 04, 2013 9:30 PM GMT
    Good statement of the facts musclmed.

    God help us all if they ever get single-payer rammed through.
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    Oct 04, 2013 9:37 PM GMT
    franktats said
    meninlove said
    Canada: single payer system.

    READ: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/national/Save+chuckle+over+America+shutdown+have+forgotten+Canada/8989503/story.html

    And yes this is an in-favour-of-Conservatives biased article, so you can shut up in advance with your accusations of lefty. I agree with the author, and you should pay attention to what he says in the beginning about your GOP.

    During these shutdowns, medical service continued as usual, just as your beloved GOP politicians continue to feed at the trough.


    When was your last government shutdown?


    Read the article and you won't ask dimwit questions. icon_wink.gif
  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Oct 04, 2013 9:53 PM GMT
    franktats saidRight-wing lies and disinformation.

    The Republicans in the House (with some Democrats joining them) voted to restore funding to NIH, among other departments and agencies. Harry Reid has said he has no interest in providing help to people in desperate need of government-funded treatment. When asked if he would fund the NIH to allow even just 1 child with cancer to get treated, he answered "Now why would we want to do that?"

    More pathological lying, per usual.


    The question of funding this or that would be moot if Republicans weren't shutting down the government in the first place. This is tantamount to burning down your neighborhood then trying to complain when your neighbors won't provide you with water to save selective houses.

    If Republicans cared about children's health, they wouldn't have shut down the government in the first place. Now they want to to be the death panel to decide -- selectively -- who lives and who dies. Harry Reid is right not to let them play God.

    If Republicans are concerned about children and the rest of America, Boehner will let the budget come to a vote. His refusal to do so is why children with cancer are going without. This is the fault of Republicans, and Republicans alone.
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    Oct 04, 2013 9:57 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    franktats saidRight-wing lies and disinformation.

    The Republicans in the House (with some Democrats joining them) voted to restore funding to NIH, among other departments and agencies. Harry Reid has said he has no interest in providing help to people in desperate need of government-funded treatment. When asked if he would fund the NIH to allow even just 1 child with cancer to get treated, he answered "Now why would we want to do that?"

    More pathological lying, per usual.


    The question of funding this or that would be moot if Republicans weren't shutting down the government in the first place. This is tantamount to burning down your neighborhood then trying to complain when your neighbors won't provide you with water to save selective houses.

    If Republicans cared about children's health, they wouldn't have shut down the government in the first place. Now they want to to be the death panel to decide -- selectively -- who lives and who dies. Harry Reid is right not to let them play God.

    If Republicans are concerned about children and the rest of America, Boehner will let the budget come to a vote. His refusal to do so is why children with cancer are going without. This is the fault of Republicans, and Republicans alone.



    Democrats - specifically ONE Democrat, Harry Reid - is refusing to fund the government. The House has passed funding bills. Reid is obstructing the process.

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    Oct 04, 2013 10:09 PM GMT


    Frankie frankie, who is now sounding more and more like a strident Southbeach:
    "Democrats - specifically ONE Democrat, Harry Reid - is refusing to fund the government. The House has passed funding bills. Reid is obstructing the process."

    ACA is part of the gov't requiring funding. Who obstructed it making all these ridiculous cherry picked bills happen? You'll have to try much much much harder to convince a few people here that what the rest of the world already knows, and much of the US as well, is incorrect. (good luck with that)

    icon_lol.gif



  • TroyAthlete

    Posts: 4269

    Oct 04, 2013 10:19 PM GMT
    franktats said
    TroyAthlete said
    franktats saidRight-wing lies and disinformation.

    The Republicans in the House (with some Democrats joining them) voted to restore funding to NIH, among other departments and agencies. Harry Reid has said he has no interest in providing help to people in desperate need of government-funded treatment. When asked if he would fund the NIH to allow even just 1 child with cancer to get treated, he answered "Now why would we want to do that?"

    More pathological lying, per usual.


    The question of funding this or that would be moot if Republicans weren't shutting down the government in the first place. This is tantamount to burning down your neighborhood then trying to complain when your neighbors won't provide you with water to save selective houses.

    If Republicans cared about children's health, they wouldn't have shut down the government in the first place. Now they want to to be the death panel to decide -- selectively -- who lives and who dies. Harry Reid is right not to let them play God.

    If Republicans are concerned about children and the rest of America, Boehner will let the budget come to a vote. His refusal to do so is why children with cancer are going without. This is the fault of Republicans, and Republicans alone.



    Democrats - specifically ONE Democrat, Harry Reid - is refusing to fund the government. The House has passed funding bills. Reid is obstructing the process.



    Random piecemeal "funding bills" is not "funding the government" anymore than paying $1 on a $1,000 bill is actually paying that bill.

    The government is not funded for one reason: John Boehner will not bring the bill funding the government to the floor for a vote. Everybody knows Republicans are responsible; nobody is fooled by conservative liars.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 04, 2013 10:22 PM GMT
    TroyAthlete said
    franktats said
    Democrats - specifically ONE Democrat, Harry Reid - is refusing to fund the government. The House has passed funding bills. Reid is obstructing the process.



    Random piecemeal "funding bills" is not "funding the government" anymore than paying $1 on a $1,000 bill is actually paying that bill.

    The government is not funded for one reason: John Boehner will not bring the bill funding the government to the floor for a vote. Everybody knows Republicans are responsible; nobody is fooled by conservative liars.


    Young man who only knows of government funding via CRs... Please acquaint yourself with the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974 and while you're at it, with Appropriations bills.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 05, 2013 10:30 PM GMT
    I just came across this interesting comment posted on the Obamacare FB page:

    Mel Content: Have any of you die-hard supporters of Obama and the ACA ever considered that the same tactics this pathetic excuse of a president is using with national parks and monuments might also be used on your government-controlled health care system? I wouldn't put it past Obama, Reid, and the Dems to decide that health care is "shut down" the next time they don't get their way in the budgetary process. There's a reason why many of us do NOT want the federal government involved in administering and controlling health care..
  • Apparition

    Posts: 3525

    Oct 07, 2013 6:14 AM GMT
    franktats said
    meninlove said
    Canada: single payer system.

    READ: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/national/Save+chuckle+over+America+shutdown+have+forgotten+Canada/8989503/story.html

    And yes this is an in-favour-of-Conservatives biased article, so you can shut up in advance with your accusations of lefty. I agree with the author, and you should pay attention to what he says in the beginning about your GOP.

    During these shutdowns, medical service continued as usual, just as your beloved GOP politicians continue to feed at the trough.


    When was your last government shutdown?


    Canada doesnt really have budget shut downs. In a parliamentary system, if a budget bill is voted down, everyone of the representatives LOSES THEIR JOBS and another election is held. (In a month or so...we also limit campaigning, with an average campaign fund being less than a year's salary for joe average). We also have 3 or more parties, so there is either a clear majority, or there is a kingmaker minority party, that can cause elections whenever they want if they dont get their way. There is never a need to have 60% or whatever...straight marjorites always win. Most of our reps are much closer to joe average people too...and name recognition is almost never a reason you win.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 07, 2013 4:51 PM GMT
    Apparition said
    franktats said
    meninlove said
    Canada: single payer system.

    READ: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/national/Save+chuckle+over+America+shutdown+have+forgotten+Canada/8989503/story.html

    And yes this is an in-favour-of-Conservatives biased article, so you can shut up in advance with your accusations of lefty. I agree with the author, and you should pay attention to what he says in the beginning about your GOP.

    During these shutdowns, medical service continued as usual, just as your beloved GOP politicians continue to feed at the trough.


    When was your last government shutdown?


    Canada doesnt really have budget shut downs. In a parliamentary system, if a budget bill is voted down, everyone of the representatives LOSES THEIR JOBS and another election is held. (In a month or so...we also limit campaigning, with an average campaign fund being less than a year's salary for joe average). We also have 3 or more parties, so there is either a clear majority, or there is a kingmaker minority party, that can cause elections whenever they want if they dont get their way. There is never a need to have 60% or whatever...straight marjorites always win. Most of our reps are much closer to joe average people too...and name recognition is almost never a reason you win.


    Thanks for directly answering the question, something that the other person wasn't able to do.
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    Oct 07, 2013 6:37 PM GMT


    Then there's proroguing, which happens up here.

    And Frank you're perfectly capable of reading, and you might have clicked on the link I provided. icon_lol.gificon_rolleyes.gif
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    Oct 07, 2013 6:44 PM GMT


    Speaking of Socialism, the last time the Republican government forced socialism on the public they didn't fund it, just decreed it. I suspect that's what they want this time, too.
    ACA is law, and they want to unfund it.


    Reagan in 1986.

    "Ronald Reagan set up hospital emergency rooms as socialized healthcare, and then…

    …didn’t fund them.

    It’s an unfunded mandate.

    So it’s illegal to let patients die on your doorstep. A step forward in society (Reagan at the time said it allied with American’s Christian principles and his own). But the Republicans of the time never paid for it. They kicked that particular can down the road.

    As a result, hospitals saw emergency room visits drastically increase. Insurance companies, because many of the uninsured used emergency rooms as care (to which they’re legally allowed, it’s how to collect the payment later that’s in issue), try to refuse to pay for the increase. Hospitals got clever at burying costs into healthy patient’s procedures, or anywhere else."

    So the next time you hear the conservative posters here (and they know who they are) cry socialism, simply remind them of the socialism they foisted on the US and never funded.
    http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2013/10/01/american-healthcare-was-already-socialized-by-reagan-were-just-fighting-about-how-to-pay-for-it/