Brutal Honesty Requested

  • Tadman

    Posts: 5

    Sep 16, 2007 2:50 PM GMT
    I’m looking for a bit of brutal honesty, where better than on the internet.

    I know I’m not great looking and all that… on the skinny side, and not built like a brick house but I do think I’m in pretty good shape, have a decent build, and am average looking. With that said… why is it when I go out to a gay bar (I do get plenty of looks especially when wearing a tight t-shirt), no-one will talk to me. I’ve been told before that I appeared snobby so I make it a conscience effort to smile and look friendly. But I can spend all night standing there by myself. I’ll get the smiles and such and return them but that’s pretty much all I ever get. I’m pretty shy so I don’t walk up to talk to many men, I usually let them make the first move… I know that’s part of it… but it can’t be all of it.
    I guess what I’m asking is am I not interesting enough to approach or just that dam ugly that I better get use to being alone.

    I’m masculine, and was told that I was very “non-gay acting”, whatever the hell that is suppose to mean.

    Hope that didn’t come off as whining, just really interested to hear what objective people have to say.

    Great website by the way 
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    Sep 16, 2007 3:14 PM GMT
    What you describe is me while sober. Shy, inhibited, and passive in a bar is a great recipe for a lonely pathetic evening.
  • cityguy39

    Posts: 967

    Sep 16, 2007 3:35 PM GMT
    First off, Tadman don't beat yourself up about meeting guys in your city at the bars. Your complaints are the same ones as other gays have everywhere. The thing is, if you want to experiance life with guys and meet them, you have to take the bull by the horns and grab it. What I mean by that is, try different venues for meeting them, try joing a book club or a movie group with other gay men, other gay men can sometimes be a resource to meeting other men. As for your looks, buck up! If you don't think your all that great what other guy will, beauty is in the eye of the beholder to be sure. There is some guy out there who might think your next best thing to Brad Pitt. I'm saying all this to say, try different venues and change you perspective, see what happens. What do you have to loose.

    Doug
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    Sep 16, 2007 3:44 PM GMT
    If you are going to go to bars on your own then you need to put aside your shyness and save it for the library.
  • Tadman

    Posts: 5

    Sep 16, 2007 3:54 PM GMT
    Hey thanks for responding,

    I'm usually sober these days, I can't afford to lose any more brain cells...

    I am starting a Martial Arts class this week,(book clubs arn't my style) I've always been interested to try it out but none of my friends have ever wanted to so I'll be doing it on my own.

    I'm working on the shyness thing but It's really hard. I can strike up a conversation with anyone and have no problem unless there gay and I'm interested in them, then it becomes awkward and I end up looking like an idiot.

    Thanks for the advise.
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    Sep 16, 2007 4:05 PM GMT
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, lets get real though. The Beholder/s can be majority or not anywhere near. You either have mass appeal, sex appeal or minimal outward appeal. In no way does that have anything to do with your character- this is where society gets lost.

    Everyones outer appeal will drop eventually. Dont fret if you have never been mass appeal, being that makes it harder to age. People that are mass appeal tend to put all there eggs in the "I look good therefore I am good" basket. Then when they age its harder for them to accecpt it because they put alot of there life motivation in how they look.

    I cant give a honest answer though because your pics are dark and blurry. You look alright from what I can see. Your profile says 39 so expect for the minimal outward appeal to keep dropping. And compensate it by maximizing your inner appeal, of course thats by being a compassionate understanding unselfish person.

    Becareful where you put all your eggs-
    Do you want to put them in a basket that will eventually break?
    Or one that is ethereal and everlasting?
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    Sep 16, 2007 5:01 PM GMT
    "I'm usually sober these days, I can't afford to lose any more brain cells..."

    I sincerely apologize if you thought I was suggesting that you drink. I'm a recovering alcoholic, and I treasure my 11+ years of sobriety. I was only describing how my experience in bars while sober is similar to your experience. The problem is being shy and passive, and I don't have any advice for how to deal with that. The way I deal with it is I simply don't go to bars.
  • Tadman

    Posts: 5

    Sep 16, 2007 5:44 PM GMT
    sorry, no offense taken paradox.

    I usually don't go to bars, most of my friends are straight so not alot of dating posibilities. I was feeling good about myself and I finally went to a gar bar last weekend after not having gone for over a year and didn't have a good time...


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 16, 2007 7:48 PM GMT
    Mmm I know a few hot Boston guys that you may be interested in
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 16, 2007 10:07 PM GMT
    If you're in a situation
    ..where don't know what to do,
    Do to those around you
    ..what you would have them do to you,

    Don't stand at the wall and stare at them all
    ..wondering why they don't come a-greeting.
    They are no different from you
    ..and are afraid too, their egos will get a beating.

    So set your sights on a man who delights
    ..and think it for a moment through,
    How would you want to be approached by him
    ..if only he were you?

    Wouldn't you want his confidence to show
    ..with a smile and a good handshake.
    Nobody wants a poor, poor pitiful me
    ..hanging around, for heaven's sake.

    So go up and present yourself with confidence,
    ..friendly, but forthright.
    And remember he is just as nervous as you
    ..meeting you tonight.

    Introduce yourself and ask how he is tonight
    ..or some other general question you might try.
    And make your conversation about him [IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM]
    ..but dont push until you pry

    Only you can fill in the specifics
    ..each time you are out on the town,
    But practice putting yourself in his place,
    ..and see if you don't turn your life around.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 12:57 AM GMT
    Same thing happens to me...I just stopped going to the bars!!! Problem Solved!!!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 1:36 AM GMT
    Dear Tadman,

    I think that some of the others are right -- we're just as shy and scared as you are, so we tend to stay to ourselves.

    If you look at some of my forum threads and posts, you'll see that your problem is common. If you can hold a guy's gaze for a moment longer than is comfortable for you, and smile, then hold the gaze a moment more to see how he reacts, you may get a smile back, and an opportunity to meet.

    Steve
  • NuShooz

    Posts: 6

    Sep 17, 2007 2:42 AM GMT
    "Your profile says 39 so expect for the minimal outward appeal to keep dropping. And compensate it by maximizing your inner appeal, of course thats by being a compassionate understanding unselfish person."

    All this talk about mass appeal and inner appeal is subjective and assumes that a youthful appearance is the standard mass appeal. Most men increase in outward appeal as they get older, as we end up with more time to spend on improving or maintaining your overall appeal, in mind body and spirit.

    You can attribute it to late bloomers, mid life crises or better gym memberships, but IMHO, botox is actually filling up the wrong wrinkles.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 2:44 AM GMT
    Yeah, most of my friends are straight too, which makes the meeting guys through common interests thing a little difficult.

    I don't go to bars much, so maybe I shouldn't be one to give advice here, but I think the bottom line is you really can't wait for other people to come up and talk to you in a bar. I used to be more shy in such situations and wonder why nobody talked to me, but eventually I just bit the bullet and made myself step out of my comfort zone and talk to guys. I've found that when I go and initiate conversations in bars, I also get approached a lot more by others, in addition to getting to meet the people I talk to. I know it's not the easiest thing in the world, but you really can't waste your life waiting for others to come to you, you have to talk to them. The more you do it, the easier it gets.

    I would submit that letting others make the first move IS all of it, not just part of it, contrary to your assumption. I think it's easy for guys to rationalize and say, oh, I'm not interesting enough or hot enough, but the reality is that most of the other people in that bar with you are probably thinking the exact same thing (well, the people by themselves at least). You've got to make yourself get over it and just act -- you'll feel better in the long run. I know it's easier said than done, but I think that's all it really comes down to.

    Perhaps one thing to try would be starting to go up and talk with guys you're not that attracted to, just to get yourself prepped up and more comfortable doing it, with less at stake. I'm not saying you should lead anybody on or anything, but just have a conversation, maybe make some new friends, and get the practice you need to approach the guys you want to.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 3:02 AM GMT
    This is a great thread for me to read and learn from. I was in a relationship for nearly 13 years that ended in June, and I have NO CLUE how to go about dating. I like the idea of practice runs on low-risk targets lol.

    Anyway...

    I wonder if a lot of people want to be the "wanted" one? The approached one, the emailed one, etc? Does anyone else here think there is a lot of that going on? You know what I mean? The people who stand back and wait to be approached because it means the approacher has given up a little of their power and the "wanted" has the reigns? I guess it's a pointless question. What matters is our own behavior and how we approach these things. I'm not the brave sort, not in the least, but I'm going to have to get used to being the approacher nonetheless if I ever want to date again...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 8:09 AM GMT
    Hi Tadman,

    I have to agree with Mr. Caslon on this one. What you project out there, you will attract. Stop waiting for the other guy to make the move! Show some balls and approach him first.
    Simplified:If you go to a store and see an nice t-shirt or pair of jeans you want, you don't wait for that piece of clothing to jump off the rail and come to you. You go and take it!
    Shyness has its appeal, but it's not going to bring you anywhere.

    Swogdog, I wish you all the best and good luck with getting back on that horse.
  • NickoftheNort...

    Posts: 1416

    Sep 17, 2007 8:52 AM GMT
    Tadman, you're not bad-looking (at least from what I can make out of your pictures; your face picture is blurry) and while appearance plays a role in terms of visually stimulating interest, it is far from being the only aspect you can use.

    Considering your passivity in the bar scene and your listed proclivity toward bottoming, could it be that you are applying some degree of submission to when you are on your "prowl"? In other words, could it be that you are waiting for someone (an active guy with proclivity toward topping) to sweep you off your feet, or at very least make some kind of alpha claim over you?

    (the above questions may seem odd, as well as hackneyed; I ask them because of my own experience as preferably passive bottom fellow)

    ***

    If you want something to happen, you may have to initiate it yourself. Too often, persons desire for the world and its inhabitants to change and meld in accordance with unexpressed wishes; we want the change to come from some outside source, something that leads and yet something we can react to (accepting or rejecting, or coyfully playing with as we please).

    You're going to have to act (as in "take action", not necessarily in "take deceitful action"), if you want someone to react to you.

    Most preferred method:
    If you see someone you fancy and you have met eyes with him, go up to him and greet.

    Alternative method:
    If you have the disposable income and see someone in the distance, ask a waiter to provide a drink for him at your expense (it is aggressive, but it will garner you his attention).

    ***

    I don't use the bar scenes myself, as I don't fancy doing either of those two methods, don't drink, and prefer being able to gather info about a guy before I meet him in-person for something more.

    Yet, a similar social "game" applies to the Internet, which I use (and have used for years, in terms of gay networking). Here, I make the first move through my profile, exposing my info and my take on who I am to whoever may be interested. Whoever reads it is at liberty to respond to it and reach out, if they so desire.

    It also works as a filter, allowing persons that do not mesh with my life-tapestry ("mesh"...something woven...my inner metaphor-generator is on apparent hiatus) to not respond and relieving me of their rejection.

    I also use the Hotlisting feature (in RJ's case) as a prior first move; when I Hotlist someone, I make that first eye-contact with the "subtle" move of saying "I think you're hot."

    ***

    So...yeah...cheers!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 9:38 AM GMT
    Buck up, little wallflower. Your time will come. I agree, the bar scene is rather daunting, but some day your dance card will fill. It's just hard at first.

    I've never been approached by anyone, ever. I used to be fat, and frightfully unattractive, which didn't help, but I am always kind, and gradually that filters through to people. Now, of course, I'm just frightfully unattractive. Nevertheless, I have a fine looking man who loves me. There is hope. Nil desperandum!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 9:50 AM GMT
    I think you guys are incredibly too hard on yourselves and I also think the eye candy of RealJock does not help.

    Tadman, I suggest that you remember two things:

    1) Guys are just as shy of you as you are of them
    2) Sometimes YOU have to be the bold one. ;-)

    Daniel

  • GQjock

    Posts: 11648

    Sep 17, 2007 10:59 AM GMT
    First up ... don't make bars your single way to meet men
    It tends to skew reality a little bit
    If you wanna meet a guy make some eye contact and smile...that'll usually do it
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 12:00 PM GMT
    1. Be yourself
    2. Project confidence
    3. Be approachable


    Before you head out, you need to decide on what sort of guy you want to meet, for what reason, and then take the iniative to make it happen. Like previous posters have said, I don't think bars are the best places to meet guys unless you only want a onenightstand.

    I always get hit on in the bars. I seem to attract everyone from boot-lickin' daddies to fresh-faced college freshmen to every awkward guy that doesn't fit into a neat 'category'. And yet I do exactly as you do, Tadman, stand and pose, but I had the "confident, smiling, approachable" persona down pat.
    While trying to appeal to everyone I never had the slightest clue as to what kind of guy I wanted to meet! Being indiscriminate usually meant that the one cutey that caught my eye somehow disappearred whilst I was engaged in polite chit-chat with blokes I didn't give a shit about.

    When it was time to leave there would invariably one guy that would finally get the nerve to come over and say: "But you can't be going home alone!"
    My usual reply at that hour was "Yes. Another successful evening out." Right...

    4. be decisive

    Stick your finger out and make it happen. That guy smiling at you will be thankful that you made the first move!


  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 12:05 PM GMT
    A kick-ass leather jacket works wonders, too.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 12:35 PM GMT
    All this talk about mass appeal and inner appeal is subjective and assumes that a youthful appearance is the standard mass appeal.

    Forgot this site is international. You are in Canada, here in America like many other countries we dont reward old age. My comment is objective of the country which I am from. Its not subjective at all being you can be someone who is very attractive, moderatley attractive, or slightly attractive.

    The 20's are the most appealing time in your life. the 30's are almost as much in some cases more so. 40's is when things start to lose the appeal they did when you were 20. At 50 you lose the younger generations attention for sexual attractiveness. At 60, your not gonna tell me that there are sexually attractive 60 year olds. Mabey to other sexually active 60 year olds. But then that wouldnt be consdered mass appeal.

    In most cases in America youthful apperance is the standard of mass appeal. Its no doubt that if your close to 40 your not gonna be pulling the guys or getting the attention that you got in your 20s. As you age your outward sexual appeal drops, doesnt matter what country your from. Gandi didnt touch millions through his outward appeal into old age. He did it through inner appeal.

    Im just saying when close to no one is comming up to you somewhere as sexually drivin as a gay bar, you gotta take your age into account.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 1:10 PM GMT
    Aero has it right, just go out and have a good time and smile a lot. You will have fun and meet people. P.S. talk to everyone.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Sep 17, 2007 1:15 PM GMT
    Macho,

    The first time my partner & I went to West Hollywood together (on a vacation), we were both about 48, and I told him we'd likely be invisible...I'd lived there in my 20's, early 30's, and anyone over 35 was pretty much off the page.

    To our surprise, we couldn't even buy our own drinks. When we showed up at a bar, guys were sending them left & right. All ages - but mostly guys in their 20's.

    Yes, I do run into people online who cut me out because I'm 55. But I run into just as many who either don't care, or who are into it.

    I think the winds are changing - but with one caveat - older guys can't let themselves fall apart, either. True, some few are into the grand-dad look and could care less. Some are chasers, too. But in the main, I think guys appreciate men who take care of themselves at any age.