In the beginning was...

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    Nov 29, 2008 1:59 AM GMT
    Hrm... *strokes zen beard*

    So I was drinking coffee and staring at the wall and then I started wondering about existence.

    So in the beginning was God since he's supposed to be the creator. Note that I am not talking about the Biblical God, but about the origin. Atheists like me simply label it origin, the original ball of matter, the beginning of the physical laws, whatnot.

    I'm going into the flowchart mode, as I was after all a programming graduate heh.

    So if God/Origin/Beginning existed then nothing must have come before him. Thus we can say that God created God. The origin originated itself. The primordial loop:

    god1mm9.jpg

    But something did escape that loop. And it is us, the universe. But if we are branches from a loop (think of it like programming code), then it goes to say that we aren't anymore IN the loop. Thus we do not owe anything to that which still belongs to the loop - namely God/origin which is forever creating itself again and again (if it stops, so does everything else, since even a linear universe can not exist without a beginning, and a beginning can not exist without it's own beginning). So making religions at best, pure exercises in logic, as nothing we do ever gets back into the loop (in simpler words, we can not affect the origin anymore, or in even simpler words, God can't hear us).

    god2eb5.jpg

    But what if we did? What if our actions do indeed affect the origin? What if God did actually hear us? Thus we become the loop within the loop. Still, if we did affect the original loop, then we become part of the creation process. We are in effect recreating ourselves infinitely. We are part of God.

    god3bm9.jpg

    How about simplifying it farther. If we did affect out origin then we become the ultimate ouroboros. We are God, and we create ourselves. The universe creates itself.

    god5rz2.jpg

    Thus then, what is the point of religion if we are worshiping only ourselves? What's the point of existence if we simply do it to exist yet again and again?

    But infinity does not have to be a loop. Infinity can be something else too. Something with a definite beginning and an indefinite end (like the Pi).

    god4im8.jpg

    It doesn't even have to be infinite, it could have an end and a beginning. In which case, we'd be back to the quandary on our origin. What begun the beginning? Thus returning us to the second model of God creating God+Universe.

    But again, I am biased. I am basing all of this on human perceptions. What if time is an illusion? What if space is an illusion? What if we are still actually a single being, a single thing, the singularity that began it all? What if everything is still happening all at once at the same place with the same amount of energy and the same single piece of matter replicated by the illusions of time and space and individuality? Something already glimpsed in the Quantum Entanglement Theory.

    god6sy5.jpg

    Hrm...

    So what's my point? LOL. Simply to say that I don't even begin to understand these things, so how come religions claim to have found the ultimate truth? Infinity is a terrible concept to contemplate, so is definiteness.

    My coffee is cold... hrm...

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    Nov 29, 2008 2:36 AM GMT
    My, we do have time on our hands, don't we?

    Sometimes these thoughts interest me for a moment, but then I remember that regardless of their answer, I am myself mortal. I will die, and all that I knew, all that I ever was, ever thought and experienced, will cease and be lost.

    So that in the final analysis, it doesn't matter what I think about these things. Nor do I expend a great deal of energy & effort on them anymore, as I once did when I was young. I'm past the point of chasing my tail like a puppy. My focus these days is more practical and immediate, based on the realities of life as I find them.
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    Nov 29, 2008 2:56 AM GMT
    Red_Vespa saidMy, we do have time on our hands, don't we?

    Sometimes these thoughts interest me for a moment, but then I remember that regardless of their answer, I am myself mortal. I will die, and all that I knew, all that I ever was, ever thought and experienced, will cease and be lost.

    So that in the final analysis, it doesn't matter what I think about these things. Nor do I expend a great deal of energy & effort on them anymore, as I once did when I was young. I'm past the point of chasing my tail like a puppy. My focus these days is more practical and immediate, based on the realities of life as I find them.


    Exactly. hehe. But it is interesting to contemplate nonetheless.

    But as I sipped my cold coffee I had an epiphany and discovered the ultimate answer...
























    42


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    Nov 29, 2008 3:06 AM GMT
    Sedative saidBut as I sipped my cold coffee I had an epiphany and discovered the ultimate answer...

    42




    How miraculous that the ultimate answer should come to us in the base-10 number system. Rather considerate of the Almighty, wouldn't you think?
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    Nov 29, 2008 3:15 AM GMT
    Sedative said
    So what's my point? LOL. Simply to say that I don't even begin to understand these things, so how come religions claim to have found the ultimate truth?

    Ummmm.....kinda arrogant to think that because you "don't even begin to understand these things," that a whole bunch of other minds couldn't thought it out and understood it, doncha think? ... icon_eek.gif


    Red_Vespa said
    Sedative saidBut as I sipped my cold coffee I had an epiphany and discovered the ultimate answer...

    42




    How miraculous that the ultimate answer should come to us in the base-10 number system. Rather considerate of the Almighty, wouldn't you think?

    Why does that have to be base 10?
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    Nov 29, 2008 3:30 AM GMT
    Caslon8000 saidWhy does that have to be base 10?


    What else would it be with those numerals? Base 3? We both know he used the common numerical system. But perhaps he will enlighten us regarding the cosmic significance of the number 42.
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    Nov 29, 2008 8:14 AM GMT
    Sed,

    Have you ever seen the movie 'What the Bleep Do We Know'? I think you would find it interesting.

    Jason
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    Nov 29, 2008 11:05 AM GMT
    Red_Vespa said
    Caslon8000 saidWhy does that have to be base 10?


    What else would it be with those numerals? Base 3? We both know he used the common numerical system. But perhaps he will enlighten us regarding the cosmic significance of the number 42.


    Base 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ad infinitum

    base 5

    0,1, 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 40, 41, 42
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    Nov 29, 2008 11:12 AM GMT
    42 is the 22nd base 5 number counting in a base 10 system. Does 22 represent a double duality?

    Just kidding!!icon_wink.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_redface.gificon_lol.gif
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    Nov 29, 2008 11:42 AM GMT
    Caslon8000 said
    Sedative said
    So what's my point? LOL. Simply to say that I don't even begin to understand these things, so how come religions claim to have found the ultimate truth?

    Ummmm.....kinda arrogant to think that because you "don't even begin to understand these things," that a whole bunch of other minds couldn't thought it out and understood it, doncha think? ... icon_eek.gif


    Don't you know yet? I'm a Bodhisattva. icon_rolleyes.gif

    Seriously, I meant to say 'we'. And no, a whole bunch of other minds can also theorize but never grasp the concept of infinity, of ultimate nothingness, of the origin, and of the end. icon_razz.gif

    Even the most powerful computer can't compute it for us, as understanding infinity itself requires infinite time. By understanding, I meant seeing it for what it really is. If someone can last for an eternity then perhaps our minds can grasp it. icon_razz.gif

    It's interesting how religions promise eternity after death. Doesn't eternity mean death itself? Any mind, if granted infinite memory (since forgetting itself is also a form of death, we exist only in what we remember after all) and immortality dies if subjected to infinity. Despair, ennui, insanity. Just goes to show how little the author of holy scriptures have really thought about it. Though Buddhism does have a different POV, in which their salvation means breaking from the loop (thus defeating eternity) and 'true death'.

    If I was offered immortality with no chance to withdraw, I'd decline it. icon_razz.gif

    Anyway, yeah, why does 42 have to be base10? It could be 26 in base6 for all you know. icon_biggrin.gif

    What is forty-two's cosmic significance?

    • 4 and 2 in Japanese, if pronounced together (Shi-Ni) sounds like 'going to death'.

    • The oldest rule in the King's court in Alice' Adeventures in the Wonderland is Rule Forty-two: All persons more than a mile high to leave the court

    • There are 42 lines on each page of the Gutenberg Bible, the first printed book in the Western World.

    • Lao Tzu says in Chapter 42 of the Tao Te Ching 'The Tao gave birth to One. The One gave birth to Two. The Two gave birth to Three. The Three gave birth to all of creation.'

    • The Beast shall rule Earth for 42 years according to Revelations

    • There are 42 negative confessions of Maat, Egyptian Goddess of Truth, who determines which souls are granted passage into the Underworld

    • 42 is a composite number, sphenic number, 15-gonal number, catalan number, meandric number, open meandric number, Harshad number, and a self number.

    • God has a 'forty-two lettered name' according to the Talmud which can only be known by the purest of the pure.

    • In Kabbalah, God creates the Universe using the number 42.

    • In ASCII, 42 represents the asterisk (*) which originated from Greek ἀστερίσκος (asteriskos) for 'little star'.

    • And the fact that clinches it all, google-logo.gif the following words (all lower case):

      the answer to life the universe and everything







    icon_lol.gif





    He had forty-two boxes, all carefully packed,
    With his name painted clearly on each:
    But, since he omitted to mention the fact,
    They were all left behind on the beach.


    -The Hunting of the Snark by Lewis Carroll

    Snark_Baker_Illustration.jpg


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    Nov 29, 2008 3:31 PM GMT
    The mystical origins of 7 derive from the fact that it is composed of 4, which is twice 2, which is itself twice 1. And 42 is most of 4-2-1.

    To see its mind-numbingly circular properties, divide 1 into 7 equal parts and you get:

    1/7 = 0.142857
    2/7 = 0.285714
    3/7 = 0.428571
    4/7 = 0.571428
    5/7 = 0.714285
    6/7 = 0.857142

    Notice also that the relationship within each decimal is a permutation of the same 1-2-4 (or 4-2-1) pattern.

    It seems that 42, or some other multiple of 7, really is the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
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    Nov 29, 2008 5:51 PM GMT
    Benjamin Franklin was also fascinated with "numerology." Numbers are a human construct, whatever their base. Though many interesting outcomes can be made of them, I doubt the Universe obeys them or can be explained by them. Nor do they provide answers to greater philosophical questions, despite the values that humans arbitrarily assign to them.

    Nevertheless, I admire the scholarship of some of the posts here, in citing many examples of the historical usages of the number 42, of which I was mostly unaware.
  • EricLA

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    Nov 29, 2008 6:28 PM GMT
    OK, but what I really want to know is what came first is the chicken or the egg?
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    Nov 29, 2008 8:01 PM GMT
    EricLA saidOK, but what I really want to know is what came first is the chicken or the egg?


    There were 42 geese a-laying and 42 swans a-floating in the Twelve Days of Christmas song, the largest number of gifts if you add all the gifts received during the 12 days.

    icon_lol.gif
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    Nov 29, 2008 8:07 PM GMT
    jprichva saidThe mystical origins of 7 derive from the fact that it is composed of 4, which is twice 2, which is itself twice 1. And 42 is most of 4-2-1.

    To see its mind-numbingly circular properties, divide 1 into 7 equal parts and you get:

    1/7 = 0.142857
    2/7 = 0.285714
    3/7 = 0.428571
    4/7 = 0.571428
    5/7 = 0.714285
    6/7 = 0.857142

    Notice also that the relationship within each decimal is a permutation of the same 1-2-4 (or 4-2-1) pattern.

    It seems that 42, or some other multiple of 7, really is the answer to life, the universe, and everything.
    School house rock's case for the number seven was less compelling icon_lol.gif
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    Nov 29, 2008 8:08 PM GMT
    Below is my zen theory of creation:






























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    Nov 29, 2008 8:10 PM GMT
    Sed, I dedicate the number 12 to you:

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    Nov 30, 2008 12:26 AM GMT
    Going back to the OP, Sedative mentions God creating God. It is noteworthy that one of science's outstanding atheists, Richard Dawkins, in his book "The God Delusion" uses the same argument as our friend here. If God exists, argues Dawkins, then who created HIM? This idea is called the Infinite Regress.
    It is an apt demonstration of what the Bible suggest that God is infinite, we are finite. In a sense we can picture God as Eternal, represented as a circle, without beginning or end. We are born, and we will die, so we could be represented as a straight line, which begins and ends.
    But our awareness of an eternal existance after death is well represented by mankind's religious bent. Take a look at the Giza Pyramids, the giant Buddhas in the far east, the Islam mosques and our church buildings, even up to the modern ones. If man had evolved to develop a mind which is able to solve complicated problems, calculate numbers and make decisions, why has in it a sense of eternity and this sense is acted upon as history attests, when evidence is so crystal clear that we all die, man and worm alike?
    I'm happy with the idea that God eternally exists, and we are created by Him for the purpose of spending eternity with Him, but we have become separated from Him by our own selfishness, but God, in His love, had sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for us and reconcile us to Himself.
    The very fact that I've just written this also attest to our awareness of eternity.
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    Nov 30, 2008 12:32 AM GMT
    You again. Ralph.
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    Nov 30, 2008 12:34 AM GMT
    Where's your damned God now Fundie asshole. She has had 42 pieces of chicken in that bucket.

    tastychicken.jpg
  • EricLA

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    Nov 30, 2008 12:52 AM GMT
    I think Sed is headed to the 42 Circles of Hell.
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    Nov 30, 2008 1:40 AM GMT
    NotThatOld said
    It is an apt demonstration of what the Bible suggest that God is infinite, we are finite. In a sense we can picture God as Eternal, represented as a circle, without beginning or end. We are born, and we will die, so we could be represented as a straight line, which begins and ends.


    And the twain shall never meet. Demonstrate to me exactly when and where does a tangent straight line meet once again with a circle? It does not and never will.

    NotThatOld saidI'm happy with the idea that God eternally exists, and we are created by Him for the purpose of spending eternity with Him, but we have become separated from Him by our own selfishness, but God, in His love, had sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for us and reconcile us to Himself.
    The very fact that I've just written this also attest to our awareness of eternity.



    Jeez... a parade of non sequiturs.

    Lemme simplify what you said: Man is aware of infinity therefore builds religious buildings which proves that God exists and sent his son Jesus Christ?

    icon_eek.gif Whoa!

    You must be very wise indeed to know the secrets of the Universe.

    Of course we are aware of infinity, but only as an abstract concept. Infinity does NOT prove the existence of ANY of your Gods.

    Awareness does not mean Understanding. Indeed I used the term God to signify only the origin, the primal matter, and not Jesus Christ, jeezus.

    Take for example the Christian Heaven... paradise yeah?













    NOT.

    A paradise where no one grows old, no one bears children, no one dies. Where nothing is unique, as it is eternal, everything is bound to repeat. You my friend, will go crazy of boredom long before you experience your full stay in heaven. Before long your utopia will be your prison. What happens if we get everything and nothing goes wrong, and worse, what if this lasts for eternity?

    Tell, me, why is the Biblical/Muslim/Jewish paradise so similar to OUR own desires?

    Because it was invented by man, that's what. Men who wanted immortality, fertile lands, lots of willing beautiful women, no bloodshed, and eternal sunshine. Only man would envision eternity as something that... limited. Or is your God really that unimaginative?

    I'm astounded as to how you made the leap from infinity to Jesus... nothing connects them.

    And as the Arabs say... 'All sunshine makes a desert', good luck with your eternal bliss. I have a feeling it will go stale after a few centuries.

    EricLA saidI think Sed is headed to the 42 Circles of Hell.


    Nah, just the sixth floor. ;) The City of Dis.
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    Nov 30, 2008 1:49 AM GMT
    please Sed, don't give this fundie the attention he wants.
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    Dec 01, 2008 12:10 AM GMT
    Sedative, read Revelation Chapters 21 and 22. If you don't know where it is, it's the last book of the Bible/New Testament.

    icon_sad.gif

    Ursamajor,
    I am trying to suss out what's the matter with you.

    If walking along the street, you come across a group of gutless morons on the other side of the road, who calls out in your direction:

    "BUGGER OFF, YOU SHIT-STABBING PERV!!" - and then they run off, laughing, whooping and wolf-whistling...

    Don't blame THEM for the insult. Blame YOURSELF.

    Its people like you who smear the gay community among those who are straight.

    As a member of this website, I have every right to express my opinions in the forum. That is what the forum is about. Really, it's none of your business whether I'm gay, straight, bi, troll or fundie.
    And I'll be the first one to admit, quite plainly, that I don't pretend to be the brightest member on this site. I wish I were! But I know full well that there are many members here who are much more intelligent than I am. And I respect them, whether gay or straight.
    If you think I'm straight or a troll/fundie, that is your problem, not mine. And if you don't like me being on this site - TOUGH!
    Remember this, too. You don't owe me anything and I certainly don't owe you anything. If you want to support this site financially, that is entirely your choice and it gives you no extra rights above mine.
    Ursamajor, I think you are mentally ill, you have a lot of hangups, and you may need to see a shrink. Really, I don't dislike you at all. Rather I can only pity your miserable state of mind.

    There IS one thing we both heartily agree on -your dog DOES have a lot more sense than you do. And he minds his own business!
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    Dec 01, 2008 12:15 AM GMT
    Sedative said
    Don't you know yet? I'm a Bodhisattva.


    Makes total sense.