Hypocricy in the Gay Community

  • allamericantx

    Posts: 140

    Sep 16, 2007 10:10 PM GMT



    Living in San Francisco for 5 years was an interesting experience - this isn't meant badly to anyone who lives there since I still consider it to be a second home, but this is just food for thought and something that needs to be addressed.

    As a Texan who moved there to sell medicine, I found it odd how many people talked about San Francisco being "liberal". As an outsider, what I saw were a bunch of people who chose to live in segregated neighborhoods after screaming for years that society should integrate and accept them. huh??? I was confused.

    The Castro for the gays, Noe Valley for the lesbians, Chinatown for the Chinese (oh, and don't forget the Sunset district), the Marina for the yuppies, Mission for the Mexicans and Latinos, Little Italy for the Europeans, etc etc I mean, is that what liberal was supposed to be about? It confused me. And yes, there is a Japantown too.

    When I would walk the streets of the Castro, I wasn't welcomed there. I got some weird stares at times and a few under the breath not-so-nice comments. I know I'm tall, but it wasn't my height. It was an appearance thing. I looked, well, conservative, and on a number of occasions, with my drug bag in tote, I was snickered at by 'leather daddies' or muscle-ripped boys standing around doing nothing with their Starbucks in hand (slow afternoon boys??), and told to go back to my own neighborhood. And where was my neighborhood? Did I not belong in a city of liberals, too?

    I didn't find San Francisco to be liberal. I found it to be a very intolerant place where people expect you to look a certain way - and if you didn't, you weren't accepted....if you were in the "wrong" neighborhood.

    The same can be said of other cities and the gay community in general (what's up, Dallas?!). We're not accepting of others unless they're ripped or have a 6 pack....or better yet, a 12 pack. They better wear Calvins and a closet full of A & F if this is going anywhere.

    What happened along the way that the people who screamed the most for tolerance and open mindedness are now the ones most guilty of being judgmental and condescending based on nothing more than shallow appearances and skin-deep attraction?!

    Interstingly enough, I found San Francisco to be just as guilty as radical Right Wing conservatives. Both believe they are doing the right thing for society, but that is ONLY to the extent YOU go along with THEIR agenda. So I didn't dress in leather or chains, and I never wore a piss gag (well, in public). But because I "looked" conservative, I was not accepted fully for who I was, but rather as people assumed I was - a Bush loving, war mongering, poor people hating rightwinger.

    I thought, and still think, that liberals are just as off base as conservatives. If you don't go along with their agenda the way they believe you should be, you are not accepted - which is the antithesis of being open minded and tolerant.

    I'll never forget the mass "shit-ins". No, not "sit-ins"......."shit-ins". Mass defications in protest of Bush and the war. Oh, yes, they do it, to make a point. Crapping on your own sidewalks always makes a wonderful point of just how right you must be (idiots). When in doubt, crap in the streets and piss off the tourists!

    I am glad I have done what I have done. I'm not picking on San Francisco, it's happened to me before in NY too. Yeah, got kicked out of line at Twilo one night cause I was told by the doorman "Um, it's gay night, honey" and showed the curb. "Um, yeah, well, I am gay" I said......another story......



    I am happy to report that regardless of the intolerance from the gay community as well as other cities across this intolerant nation of ours, I did keep my piss gag.


    ;>
  • MikePhilPerez

    Posts: 4357

    Sep 17, 2007 12:41 AM GMT
    Why post what you did then about picture less profiles?

    Why reject people like you were rejected?

    Respect people and encourage them to come out.

    What you are doing does not help, it makes things worse.

    Mike
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    Sep 17, 2007 1:33 AM GMT
    I can totally relate to AllAmerican TX's observation of how closed-minded San Francisco can be while a bunch of queens cry hysterically for equality and tolerance. Even straight friends of mine note the hypocrisy of liberal San Francisco being no different with their political-mentality of shunning and ostracizing those who differ in their liberal and conservative opinions.

    Not to mention, San Francisco activists always -- and wholeheartedly -- believe they are taking their passion of free speech to the next level by being vulgar, crass, lewd, sexually overt regardless of the presence of children and individuals they intentionally wish to offend and horrify with these unconventional "freedom of speech" antics.

    However, should their attention be called upon to correct their immoral behavior -- or tell them to stop using a gym's steam-room or sauna as a bodily-fluid exchanging bath-house -- soon enough they scream sexual-oppression, wrap themselves up with some civil liberties legal firm, and all frivilous legal mayhem breaks loose, especially if the San Francisco authorities (i.e.: cops, health department, etc.) are involved. Oh yeah, there is no shame in how far gay liberals in San Francisco have managed to successfully desecrate the foundation of their beliefs, manipulating those values for achieving a gratifying method disgustingly unique to their selfish whims.

    Unfortunately, despite it being a beautiful city, San Francisco, politically, is a contradiction, especially within the gay community! And should their political allegiance be questioned, they come attacking aggressively with all their might. Sure, give them credit for being united, but when it comes to tolerance and understanding, they are no different than a Jesse Helms, Jerry Falwell, or Pat Robertson Republicans. Heck, they make those three I mentioned seem grandfatherly friendly in my book.
  • allamericantx

    Posts: 140

    Sep 17, 2007 1:38 AM GMT


    Dear CAdudeSF,

    Wow. You are very, very articulate. You said better what I was saying. Thanks for your input, that was very kind of you to take the time to post and contribute.

    I'm floored.



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    Sep 17, 2007 3:41 AM GMT
    The reality is there is no such thing as perfect integration. People will always gravitate towards their own kind. What liberals mean by acceptance and integration is not a fairytale land where gays and straights skip along the sidewalk holding hands, but one where the law and the social institution isn't grossly favoring one particular group: white straight males.

    And what did you mean by "conservatively dressed"? I'm a bit confused. It could have been that you were just dressed a bit awkward?
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    Sep 17, 2007 3:50 AM GMT
    This is true in any community, not just the gay one. People just trust and understand their own kind better so it is easier and more comfortable for them to live with eachother. I think trying to change this is impossible and a waste of time. The only way such things will change is if the communities themselves no longer exist as separate entities (e.g. if being gay vs. straight is the same as being blond vs. brunette). However, this too is pretty much impossible. If we get rid of the gay/straight difference some other thing will pop up. People need a way to define themselves.

    I mean, just look at us. We've all gathered on a "gay" workout community. How are we any different from the guys in SF?
  • allamericantx

    Posts: 140

    Sep 17, 2007 4:05 AM GMT



    With that attitude, I agree. What's the point. Let's all go home.


    shitty attitudes tonight. what gives?
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    Sep 17, 2007 4:13 AM GMT
    Haha, the world is great as it is man, no need for so much "change". We're not perfect after all. I suppose we can change.. if you can dig into our genetic codes and engineer our most base instincts and impulses. But then, what's the fun in that :) The challenge is for you to be as good of a person as you can. It may be slow, but we're all going in the right direction, some of us admittedly more quickly than others.
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    Sep 17, 2007 4:16 AM GMT
    NNJFitandBi said: "...But where's the community? Seems like a place devoted to "do your own thing." People coexist there, but I wanted to run back East to the ethnic neighborhoods ..."

    Egads, guys... San Francisco, Oakland and Berkeley are full of ethnic neighborhoods. Small villages within the larger urban environments, with neighborhood stores, a neighborhood movie house, library, coffee houses and local restaurants.

    I live in such a one in Oakland, and my mom still lives in the remnants of one in San Francisco.

    You're not going to find that in the Castro. That is a fabricated neighborhood of emigrated gay men, mostly, with no ties to San Francisco.

    Yes, if you live there, you're not in anything but a clone neighborhood. Seriously, walk six blocks and you are in the Mission District...Mission and 24th can pass for a similar intersection in Mexico City.

    Au contraire!!!

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    Sep 17, 2007 4:55 AM GMT
    It's a problem of perspective. If we could but solve the fundamental attribution error, we would indeed have achieved world peace.

    Obligatory Wikipedia reference:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error#Why_the_fundamental_attribution_error_occurs

    There is something deep within our species -- probably some artifact of evolution -- that compels us toward conformity. Consider the red-faced street preacher and the leather clad shit-in organizer. Their missions may differ but their methods are the same.
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    Sep 17, 2007 5:00 AM GMT
    I developed very mixed feelings about SF myself. I did my psychotherapy training in Sonoma County -- a month in Atlanta, a month there, for three years. There was much about the city I loved, but I did start to find it oppressive. There was so much to...worry about before you expressed yourself.

    A former employee of mine landed a very prestigious job at The Chronicle a year ago. He's young and as gay and progressive-minded as you can be, but he lasted 9 months. His irreverence got him into continual trouble. He's come back to the South.

    I, on the other hand, love the city everyone else hates: Los Angeles.
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    Sep 17, 2007 6:03 AM GMT
    LA rocks your socks. thats right, suck it.
  • allamericantx

    Posts: 140

    Sep 17, 2007 6:08 AM GMT


    I dont think it's fair to say the world outside San Francisco is dangerous, and that being in SF is the only "safe" place to be.

    When Harvey Milk made city counsel, he was gunned down cause he was the first gay elected official....then the gays rioted, and the police came into the Castro, and pulled gays from their homes and beat them in the streets......what the hell are you talking about, Eyland, that San Franisco is the only place you feel safe??? Are you kidding me???

    Has San Francisco EVER voted for a transvestite as mayor? we in Austin did - the guy came in second place....yes, openly transvestite, walks around in panties and no one dares to give him an evil eye....because we, too, are open minded though you would write Texas off as some vast right wing conspiracy gone terrible. San Fran has given you tunnel vision where you think the world outside the city limits is evil. Not true and not a fair statement.

    For this guy I'm talking about, the link is:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Cochran


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    Sep 17, 2007 4:11 PM GMT
    NNJFitandBi opined: "...I love LA, too, fastprof. Except when I have to get in my car..."

    That would be OW who liked LA. I like it to visit.

    However, if you meant that SF has LA's transportation issues, you're partially correct. However,unlike LA, most of SF, Oakland and Berkeley's districtsd are walkable...meaning, you can walk to a show, walk to coffee, walk to a good restaurant.

    Is it utopia? Of course not. This area has lots of problems.

    But it is very livable, and for a person into outdoor fitness, has miles and miles of running trails, and has more parkland per capita than any other major urban area.

    Plus, we have great winter storms.

    Now, if only the next time you come out this way you actually think to contact me...I could show you this. Sniff. :-) Just kidding....about the sniff. Just thought I'd put some gay drama in here.

    John
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    Sep 17, 2007 5:47 PM GMT
    San Francisco is aesthetically a very beautiful and very ugly city, depending on how and where you wish to look. As the penultimate "gay mecca," it stands to reason that it would highlight the materialism, conformity, vacuousness to be found in the "gay community" nationwide.

    What most startled me about SFCastro was one, how small it is and two, (speaking to SF citywide now)how much poverty and homelessness surrounds it. Comparatively (and mind you, I adore SF), gays tend to be "more real" when you leave the ghettos and encounter them just living life, here there and everywhere.
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    Sep 17, 2007 5:58 PM GMT
    I agree 100% with AllAmericanTX and cadudesf.

    While I haven't been to San Francisco, it doesn't take a genius to figure out what kinds of people the city caters to and what kinds it doesn't. Recently (last year?) there was a gathering of ~25,000 Christian youth in the city, where they were "welcomed" by protesters displaying some of the most offensive, intolerant messages you can imagine:
    notheocracy.jpg
    Really nice, huh? For a city that prides itself on being accepting, open-minded, and inclusive, it still knows how to make CERTAIN groups of people feel very un-welcome. The point is... SF will accept you, as long as you are "one of them." Dare to be different, and you'll be in for a surprise!

    Of course, the intolerance doesn't stop at the city by the bay. On a personal note, I have seen first-hand the type of intolerance and prejudice that exists within the gay community. One of my first person-to-person experiences on this very forum included someone (who I did not know and had never spoken to before) drawing sweeping conclusions about me. It was an "interesting" experience, to say the least!

    I think, as a general rule, people should strive to practice basic courtesy and respect. Be open to ideas, even if they are from some of "those people," whoever they may be.
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    Sep 17, 2007 6:07 PM GMT
    twister said "...Recently (last year?) there was a gathering of ~25,000 Christian youth in the city, where they were "welcomed" by protesters displaying some of the most offensive, intolerant messages you can imagine..."

    Give me a break. That would have occurred in any major city in the United States outside of the bible belt. Fortunately, we have free speech. The demonstrators are entitled to express themselves, just as the bible-toting throngs do.

    As for San Francisco catering...it's quite good. WE have some of the finest restaurants in the United States.

    Finally, I am willing to bet those Christians got a lot better welcome than a convention of gays say, in Casper, Wyoming, or Dubuque, Iowa.

    Please, twister, that's demagoguery.
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    Sep 17, 2007 6:18 PM GMT
    AATX Open your eyes the gay world is not just centered in SF I love Massachusetts because yes we have the prestigious neighborhoods the new england weather and we're awesome but yeah go to Northampton sometime. It's got to be one of the most diverse place to live go to Ptown yes it's full of queens but i never see anybody ostricised because they aren't wearing the same thing as everybody else. BTW you look pretty damn stereotypically gay so i don't understand why a gay club would turn you away unless you left your ID behind you. You went to SF looking for a gay community and you didn't like it. Tough shit maybe they didn't like you because you were making fun of them or staring too long. Are you conservative? Well i guess i'll never know but what is moral conservative or liberal is up to the society that views us. Just understand that everybody is different and many people judge others for there own reasons some which can't be justified. If you were coming to Massachusetts from Texas no one would really care because your you. "Just do you" be yourself.
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    Sep 17, 2007 6:19 PM GMT
    [sigh]
    That would have occurred in any major city in the United States outside of the bible belt.
    Nice excuse. It takes ownership of the bigotry off of the shoulders of its perpetrators. I believe that one's called "deflection."

    Finally, I am willing to bet those Christians got a lot better welcome than a convention of gays say, in Casper, Wyoming, or Dubuque, Iowa
    Oh, really? And tell me how you know that...

    "...that's demagoguery"Call it whatever you want. The facts speak for themselves.

    Whatever your opinions are, fastprof, I'd like you to know that I respect your right to express them, and though I may disagree, I won't resort to name calling or making presumptions about you. I hope you'll reciprocate.
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    Sep 17, 2007 6:23 PM GMT
    By the way twisterguy20 that sign they were holding up is a lot less vulgar than what the christian protesters with there pictures of dead fetuses on posters hold up at abortion clinics. That's free speech and it is simply stating that women should have all there rights and they don't like bush which to me is understandable.
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    Sep 17, 2007 6:27 PM GMT
    I think the only place this idealistic community exists is somewhere over the rainbow, in cloud cuckoo land.

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    Sep 17, 2007 6:35 PM GMT
    "...that sign they were holding up is a lot less vulgar than what the christian protesters with there pictures of dead fetuses on posters hold up at abortion clinics..."
    Yes, point taken, and I condemn those people as well. That is awful and disgusting. However, you can't justify attacks by pointing to something else you consider to be worse. Then, there is no ownership of behavior.

    "...That's free speech and it is simply stating that women should have all there rights and they don't like bush which to me is understandable..."
    Free speech, right. But there is a difference between expressing yourself in a respectful, honorable, mature way, and resorting to the inflammatory (and untrue) WOMEN-HATING CHRISTIAN FASCIST THEOCRACY-stuff. Such extremism gets nothing accomplished.
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    Sep 17, 2007 6:41 PM GMT
    Some of us feel that christianity is cuckoo, just like islam or judaism or believing in the easter bunny or santa claus. It would be ok if it was just cuckoo, but some of them are downright dangerous.
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    Sep 17, 2007 6:43 PM GMT
    hey at leats they have a scene where I live its one pub and one thats not sure.

    the London scene tho is so up its own arse its incredible at times at least theres variety tho.

    Lookin forward to hittin San Fran next year tho for my virgin visit!
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    Sep 17, 2007 6:44 PM GMT
    God my spelling!

    I totaly agree with you there McGay religion of all sorts is dangerous! I think Heaven really is the land of Oz and Dorothy is gonna be there kicking all the arses of Homophobes back to hell :-)