An analysis of why blacks voted in favor of Proposition 8, and of how their vote possibly could be swayed next time around.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 29, 2008 4:31 PM GMT
    "...This high rate of church attendance by blacks informs a very conservative moral view. While blacks vote overwhelmingly Democratic, an analysis of three years of national data from Gallup polls reveals that their views on moral issues are virtually indistinguishable from those of Republicans. Let’s just call them Afropublicrats. ...

    [It all comes back to the god damn church ... écrasez l'infâme!]

    First, comparing the struggles of legalizing interracial marriage with those to legalize gay marriage is a bad idea. Many black women do not seem to be big fans of interracial marriage either.

    Second, don’t debate the Bible. You can’t win. Religious faith is not defined by logic, it defies it. Instead, decouple the legal right from the religious rite, and emphasize the idea of acceptance without endorsement.

    ...blacks overwhelmingly say that homosexuality isn’t morally acceptable. So many black men hide their sexual orientations and engage in risky behavior. This has resulted in large part in black women’s becoming the fastest-growing group of people with H.I.V. ... So pitch it as a health issue. ... "

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/opinion/29blow.html?ref=opinion
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    Nov 29, 2008 8:07 PM GMT
    Let me save the thread 200 replies.



    White Guy: Grrr! Black homophobes!
    Black Guy: Roar! Gay racists!
    Latin Guy: Me agree with White Guy!
    Asian Guy: Me agree with black man!
    Black Guy: ROAR!
    White Guy: GRRR!


    (Repeat 15x)


    Citizensol: Grrr. White gay racism. Grrr. Grrr. Grrr. Err. Cornel West. Grrr. Capitalism and materialism...Roar. Capitalism and materialism....err...religion...errr...I agree black people suck...errr? So do white people...grrr...white priviledge...err white arrogance and ignorance...homophobia bad...err...no ones talking about latinos, Asians and native americans...FUCK THANKSGIVING! GRRR! Educate and know thyself!

    Everyone: Silence



  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 29, 2008 8:29 PM GMT
    I think this has everything to deal with false belief systems and the views that they promote (those without any basis in fact).

    I do NOT think that this makes Blacks a victim.

    Folks with lower literacy, often through no fault of their own, have a higher tendency to believe in those false belief systems and the views that they promote.

    As one becomes more educated, one tends to question those false belief systems more openly or completely gets rid of them.

    The way they voted, I fully concur with the poster, is the result of the Religous Right, and the agenda they promote, and not so much a statement about black folks other than than they tend to embrace those false belief systems to a higher degree.

    Ironically, you'd think they'd understand the issues of prejudice, but, from where they are, religion clearly trumps common sense, and prior experience. That is, after all, why it's called faith, because it's a leap of faith to believe all the malarky that many folks feel it is (no basis in fact).

    I think as the Black Culture evolves, especially in light of a role model like Obama, some of the tie ins to the false belief systems will abate. I don't think Black folks are so much homophobes, as devout in their beliefs in their respective religon. Their religion seems to trump science and common sense, as religion most often does.

    False beliefs are always most prevalent in the lesser educated societies. I think, given some time, that viewpoint in Black Culture will become more moderate with issues like Prop 8.

    Not to long ago inter-racial marriage, sodomy, and where we sat on the bus was a matter of statute. I think, this too, in time, will fix itself.

    As people become more educated, and discard false belief systems, they become a bit more open-minded. Understand, though, that the brainwashing often begins at a young age, and it's hard to undo.

    We've come a long way, but, there's a long way to go, yet.

    In my view, the problem isn't the Blacks, as much as illiteracy, and the penetration of false belief systems within thier culture.

    Prop 8 lost because of religion and funding from outside the state and the demogaphic in California. I don't think it would lose again.

    It is, however, alarming, that the Religious Right is trying to legislate their morality at the constituational level, much as they did with Prohibition of Alcohol, and also with Black folks, and their value in The Census (3/5 person).
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    Nov 29, 2008 8:46 PM GMT
    Black women (church goers) know first hand how bad polygamy is for women and their children. Black men are drawn towards islam because of the ultra dominant role men have in that culture.

    Gays need to stop being so selfish in regard to opening up marriage. Gays don't need marriage. Women and children need the closed definition of marriage. You can't open up marriage half way,that is, only open it up to two gay people. Why, because church decreed polygamists should have EQUAL RIGHTS TOO.
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    Nov 29, 2008 8:54 PM GMT
    Most black men hate gays, period. It's that simple, no need to make things complicated.

    The very few gay black men aside, I've rarely met a black man who wasn't into straight macho crap, at the expense of gays. The same is true of males of other minorities. Why this is I'll leave to others to sort out.

    As for finding the reasons so they can be addressed, I wouldn't bother. The hatred & prejudice is so deep-seated that it's not likely to change for generations to come. This is a waste of our time & political energy.

    Rather, I'd focus on white US voters while this more receptive group still has some political influence, so that gay-positive laws get enacted quickly and become accepted over time as "normal" with the general population. Blacks are a write-off for gays, and we shouldn't squander our political capital on dead ends.
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    Nov 29, 2008 9:00 PM GMT
    It's not a pleasant thing...voting along racial lines but lets spare the rhetoric and tell it like it is.

    I voted for Obama because I really like the way he does business; his eloquence; his speeches; and...I think McCain would have been horrible. I watched as I saw Obama develop and become more and more presidential. I think he'll be great.
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    Nov 29, 2008 9:04 PM GMT
    CitizenSol saidLet me save the thread 200 replies.



    White Guy: Grrr! Black homophobes!
    Black Guy: Roar! Gay racists!
    Latin Guy: Me agree with White Guy!
    Asian Guy: Me agree with black man!
    Black Guy: ROAR!
    White Guy: GRRR!


    (Repeat 15x)


    Citizensol: Grrr. White gay racism. Grrr. Grrr. Grrr. Err. Cornel West. Grrr. Capitalism and materialism...Roar. Capitalism and materialism....err...religion...errr...I agree black people suck...errr? So do white people...grrr...white priviledge...err white arrogance and ignorance...homophobia bad...err...no ones talking about latinos, Asians and native americans...FUCK THANKSGIVING! GRRR! Educate and know thyself!

    Everyone: Silence





    Thank you for saving us the time! It seems pretty accurate! LOL icon_wink.gif
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    Nov 29, 2008 9:08 PM GMT
    Caslon8000 said...blacks overwhelmingly say that homosexuality isn’t morally acceptable. So many black men hide their sexual orientations and engage in risky behavior. This has resulted in large part in black women’s becoming the fastest-growing group of people with H.I.V. ... So pitch it as a health issue. ... "


    Wait, I thought black people engaged in more "risky behavior" because in general they are more open about what they want sexually. On the contrary white people in general engage in less risky sexual behavior because their social courting rituals typically take longer (i.e. more shy, need to date first, play games, don't know how to express what they want, etc.)
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    Nov 29, 2008 9:17 PM GMT
    I work with a non-profit HIV/AIDS agency, and by far our greatest number of clients are black & Hispanic males. They simply refuse to use condoms because of a macho male image they have, as our interviews and other research has shown. There are also increasing numbers of female and pediatric HIV cases, too, caused by those same macho males.

    Therefore, I don't think pitching anything as a health issue will work. They come from a cultural value system where their male image trumps everything else.
  • coolarmydude

    Posts: 9190

    Nov 29, 2008 9:20 PM GMT
    jakebenson said, "Wait, I thought black people engaged in more "risky behavior" because in general they are more open about what they want sexually. On the contrary white people in general engage in less risky sexual behavior because their social courting rituals typically take longer (i.e. more shy, need to date first, play games, don't know how to express what they want, etc.)"

    I think that's a false perception. Look at who is mainly involved in internet hook-ups, truck stops and adult bookstores...white men. Discretion does not come close to equating to a "general engagement in less risky sexual behavior."
  • rlmcbc

    Posts: 38

    Nov 29, 2008 9:42 PM GMT
    I agree with Caslon, because of the the black church, gay marriage really is a non starter. Comparing gay marriage to interracial marriage is a non starter as well. I think that those who want gay marriage need to increase the numbers of those in the white community who will vote for these measures because in the black and latino communities will not vote for these measures because of religion. I was also wondering why is there not more talk about how this measure was rejected in that community with numbers similar to those in the black community?
  • MarvelClimber

    Posts: 511

    Nov 29, 2008 9:55 PM GMT
    Mr. Stern's "experiment" was not actually an experiment. There were no controls, no actual method. It was completely anecdotal. It did not prove that blacks voted for Obama because he was black. It could be that they support the Democratic nominee. Had the incumbent been Hillary they might have supported her the same. They could have voted Obama b/c they hate McCain, or all Republicans for that matter. Regardless of what you think might be true based on "common sense", the study has to be set up in a way for a firm conclusion to be drawn based on evidence. The statements from a handful of people that a talk show host aired is hardly evidence to that conclusion. It's not like they will air the comments of people who made educated responses.

    People of all educations levels tend to remember and seek out that which support what they believe.

    The biggest problem I see in articles like these is that they make comparisons between homogenized communities. Black/African-American/White are ubiquitous terms. There are many different nations in Africa; thousands of different cultures. Families were broken up during slave trade, no records kept, slave women bearing mixed-race children; there was cultural mixing between black cultures, islanders, Amerindians, whites with colonial ancestry, white immigrants, etc. Out of this came many different black cultures in the US. Just as there are many different white cultures based on European diaspora. There has not been a single study identifying the demographics of these cultures.

    A group of blacks acting a certain way, or voting a certain way does not represent the US black community. To take a belief found in SOME black communities and using it as an explanation for the actions, or the data derived from those actions, from a relatively small and uncategorized sample of people would be a major scientific error.
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    Nov 29, 2008 10:03 PM GMT
    omg! not again!icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Nov 29, 2008 10:13 PM GMT
    Red_Vespa saidMost black men hate gays, period. It's that simple, no need to make things complicated.

    The very few gay black men aside, I've rarely met a black man who wasn't into straight macho crap, at the expense of gays. The same is true of males of other minorities. Why this is I'll leave to others to sort out.

    As for finding the reasons so they can be addressed, I wouldn't bother. The hatred & prejudice is so deep-seated that it's not likely to change for generations to come. This is a waste of our time & political energy.

    Rather, I'd focus on white US voters while this more receptive group still has some political influence, so that gay-positive laws get enacted quickly and become accepted over time as "normal" with the general population. Blacks are a write-off for gays, and we shouldn't squander our political capital on dead ends.


    White Guy: Grrr! Black homophobes!

    Citizensol: Grrr. White gay racism. Grrr. Grrr. Grrr. Err. Cornel West. Grrr. Capitalism and materialism...Roar. Capitalism and materialism....err...religion...errr...I agree black people suck...errr? So do white people...grrr...white priviledge...err white arrogance and ignorance...homophobia bad.

    ___________________________________

    Here is a black gay man who is as equally angry yet more enlightened.

    http://ernesthardy.blogspot.com/2008/11/fuck-dan-savage.html
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    Nov 29, 2008 10:18 PM GMT
    Ducky44 saidomg! not again!icon_rolleyes.gif


    ...we shall overcooome...

    icon_razz.gif

    (Edit)

    In all seriousness, "focus(ing) on white US voters while this more receptive group still has some political influence" would be the DUMBEST fucking thing the gay community could do. Look at the Republican Party. You think they lost solely because of Bush? Please.

    Before I hit you guys with some prophetic knowledge, know I mean the best. Caucasians: A dying breed. You're a 59 year old man in Florida for the love of fuck. You can't see it all changing? The growth of European whites has halted! The Indians and Arabs moving into Europe? They fuck and breed like rabbits. Say hello to the future of Europe. The United States whites? They're intermixing with the behemoth influx of hispanic/latino people coming in and to a lesser existent, blacks, and to an even lesser extent, asians. Even blacks with all their bullshit problems are growing at a faster rate than whites, albeit, a very sluggish pace. icon_razz.gif

    By the end of this new century, 1. Latinos. 2, Caucasian. And a more populous 3. Black. and 4. Asian & Pacific Islander will be the racial makeup of this country...not counting the plentious of biracial/multiracial people waltzing around. This is the future Red Vespa. You cannot ignore it.
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    Nov 30, 2008 1:34 AM GMT
    CitizenSol saidCaucasians: A dying breed....

    Then likewise the other races will die out by interbreeding.

    Is this supposed to be a bad thing?
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    Nov 30, 2008 1:53 AM GMT

    Caslon8000 (holy toledo, 8000!) said,
    "Then likewise the other races will die out by interbreeding.

    Is this supposed to be a bad thing?"

    Nope, not a bad thing at all.
    Once the Deck of Race cards has been scattered, much can change. The devil's Deck of Religions, however, will be a tougher task.


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    Nov 30, 2008 2:16 AM GMT
    Caslon8000 said
    CitizenSol saidCaucasians: A dying breed....

    Then likewise the other races will die out by interbreeding.

    Is this supposed to be a bad thing?


    Oh no. Not at all.

    I'm not rejoicing or mourning, I'm merely informing. Allow me to explain.

    1. If 100% of every black American were homophobic, black conservativism/homophobia still wouldn't trump the gargantuan white conservative/homophobic machine. There isn't one black person in this country you could compare to James Dobson, Pat Robertson or the late Jerry Falwell. You couldn't point to a black con/homophobe movement so virulent and destructive as the lily white organizations Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, the Christian Coalition, the Moral Majority, or the Mormon Church, whom btw, poured gallons of green into black churches to get on the Yes on Prop 8 bandwagon.


    2. Despite being a community defined as homophobic (I'm not challenging that assertion) blacks oddly enough have an awesome track record electing progressive/gay friendly representatives compared to almost every group in this country. In that corner, Jews and Gays are their only rivals.

    ( Remember, most of the representatives who got up and challenged the Iraq War back then? Remember the overwhelming majority of that group were black? Do you remember that sad scene in American history? All those dignified, knowledgable, dissenting black people standing in front of the mostly white congress getting boed and laughed at as they railed against an unjust war? I do. )

    3. The black community DOES have a problem with homophobia, but the main recipients of homophobia are black LGBTQ people. I'm sure more of these people coming out would help but look at the white conservative community! The gay whites are at their prime and the white con/homophobe community continues to not only be a formidable foe but THE formidable foe. See, the black community could have voted 100% against prop 8 and it still would have passed. For non-black gays, black homophobia is an annoyance. For black gays, its daily life. For non-white gays, white homophobia is daily life. You get what I'm saying?

    (I'll write more later. I'm tired.)
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    Nov 30, 2008 2:20 AM GMT
    CitizenSol saidYou couldn't point to a black con/homophobe movement so virulent and destructive as the lily white organizations Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, the Christian Coalition, the Moral Majority, or the Mormon Church, whom btw, poured gallons of green into black churches to get on the Yes on Prop 8 bandwagon.

    Well, maybe we should be "pointing" to the Black churches as a great source of homophobia.

    And if you are saying that black churches tooks money for their position...that is double disgusting! ... icon_eek.gif
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    Nov 30, 2008 2:23 AM GMT
    ROAR! icon_wink.gif GRRR! ROAR! FUCK THANKSGIVING!
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    Nov 30, 2008 2:49 AM GMT
    At the end of the day Prop 8 was a success because people who believed that gay people should not have the right to marry put their X on the form. It doesn't matter how many of them were whatever race or religion. Because for every representative from all the races and religions who voted yes there were also representatives from the same groups who voted no.

    And for all the gays who voted for Obama there were a whack of them that voted for McCain/Palin - the same twosome who did not support gay marriage (Log Cabin Republicans anyone?). When the gay media is done castigating those awful homophobic blacks are they going to invest the same energy in lambasting those awful homophobic gays?
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    Nov 30, 2008 3:17 AM GMT
    Sedative saidROAR! icon_wink.gif GRRR! ROAR! FUCK THANKSGIVING!


    I know...exactly... icon_razz.gif

    I'm going to remove me "death grip" on this topic because I'm dangling between being a party pooper and a one eyed chicken in the midst of a blind coup.

    Caslon8000Well, maybe we should be "pointing" to the Black churches as a great source of homophobia


    No doubt black churches are the greatests perpetrators in spreading homophobia in the black community.

    Caslon8000And if you are saying that black churches tooks money for their position...that is double disgusting


    Oh come on Caslon. Hows that "double disgusting"? I suspect your trying to make black homophobia somehow "more deviant" than white homophobia. Taking and throwing around dirty money for all kinds of terrible shit is one of the things the white con/homophobic movement is notorious for. At least Yes-Prop8 were smart enough to invest in communities of color. No-Prop8 probably would have added a couple of percentages if they did the same thing with ethnic gay friendly organizations and ethnic gay organizations. What did the white religious conservatives say? They said, we can't win if we don't have "their" support. What did the white gays say? "Oh gives a shit?" Well...apparently they do now and looking at Vespa and guys like him, he's prepared to piss all over himself and the gay community all over again.

    Caslon8000Then likewise the other races will die out by interbreeding.

    Is this supposed to be a bad thing?


    My point. As much as RedVespa is hoping the great White Hope will come and save the gay rights struggle, I only need to point to the republican party. This mammoth of an organization that lost every group of color. They dropped blacks completely. They flirted with nonwhite latinos/hispanics and ultimately lost them too. Its safe to assume he lost the asian and native american vote too. Obama represented a future of color. McCain represented the past. Look at the conventions! I think more than half of the people of color could see. I believe the gay rights movement is in danger of doing the same. Ultimately gay people of color will have to pick up the slack in their growing racial communities but for the sake of gay rights for all, now and for the future, it'd be smart to begin investing in the future. Emphasize the gay melting pot, empower younger gay people of color as well as ethnic progressive organizations, believe it or not, exist in every ethnic community.
  • IdkMyBffJill

    Posts: 148

    Nov 30, 2008 4:05 AM GMT
    A few of the organizations I'm involved with have had this similar conversation. Here is my analogy....

    You took a huge pharmacology exam. You needed a >70 pts to pass, you scored a 60. It makes great sense to evaluate where you lost the points, and spend extra time with that material before re-take exam. If you got 20% of renal drug questions correct, and 80% of the cardiac drug questions correct. . . . Which material will you focus on for the next exam? .... you'll focus more time on the renal drugs, not try to 'perfect' the cardiac drugs.
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    Nov 30, 2008 4:47 AM GMT
    Why so much emphisis on just the Black vote in California. Blacks make up less thasn 7% of the state's population. Did the Black Church's vote equate to some kind of super delegate with unwordly powers? I would guess that Asians, Latinos and other "minority groups" have similar beliefs to the "Black Church" where gay marriage is concerned. The general perception is that we gays are a self obsessed, classist and racist group. Why would any minority group promote gay causes when there has been so little outreach by either side?
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    Nov 30, 2008 5:32 AM GMT
    Twincam saidWhy so much emphisis on just the Black vote in California.


    I dislike the focus on this thread....namely the conjecture that the success of the Yes on 8 campaign is tracable to a racial issue or divide. It's tracable to a the lock-step reactionary views of most traditional religions, not to a racial divide. I do not believe there is documented evidence that black voters felt that gay white men are racist and thus voted Yes on 8.

    What I think the evidence showed is that the power structure of conservative religious forces, be they the white "forces" of the Mormon and Catholic Church, or the hispanic "forces" of the Catholic Church, or the black "forces" of the evangelical Christian African American Churches, played on irrational fears and the homophobia rampant in those churches. And they won.

    What is common here is not the ethnicity of the voters, but the fact that the leadership of organized churches directed the membership to vote their fears.

    And what I think we need to do is to convince the people (not the churches) that their votes were made on the basis of homophobic fear. I believe also that many of these people will never be convinced or wooed in their lifetimes, but that some will....and we were so close this time...it will only take a few more to turn the tide.