It was deliberate from the beginning - Americans are losing their coverage by political design

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 30, 2013 11:09 PM GMT
    The ObamaCare Awakening
    Americans are losing their coverage by political design.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304200804579163541180312658?mod=ITP_opinion_2

    For all of the Affordable Care Act's technical problems, at least one part is working on schedule. The law is systematically dismantling the individual insurance market, as its architects intended from the start.

    The millions of Americans who are receiving termination notices because their current coverage does not conform to Health and Human Services Department rules may not realize this is by design. Maybe they trusted President Obama's repeated falsehood that people who liked their health plans could keep them. But Americans should understand that this month's mass cancellation wave has been the President's political goal since 2008. Liberals believe they must destroy the market in order to save it.

    ...........see link for body

    None of this is an accident. It is the deliberate result of the liberal demand that everyone have essentially the same coverage and that government must dictate what that coverage is and how much it costs. Such political control is the central nervous system of the Affordable Care Act, and it is why so many people can't keep the insurance they like.
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    Oct 30, 2013 11:21 PM GMT
    Related article

    The Outrage Arrives

    You can't keep your insurance because Democrats don't want you to control your own health-care spending.

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304655104579165323213243280?mod=ITP_opinion_0

    The White House has issued a clarification. When the president said if you like your insurance plan you can keep it, what he meant was you can keep it if he likes it.

    Hundreds of thousands of Americans who are getting policy cancellation notices this month can't be as surprised as they pretend to be. President Obama made it clear at his 2010 health care summit what he thought of their taste in insurance.

    "It's the equivalent of Acme Insurance that I had for my car. . . . It's basically not health insurance," he explained. "It's house insurance. . . .

    "I'm buying that to protect me from some catastrophic situation; otherwise, I'm just paying out of pocket. I don't go to the doctor. I don't get preventive care. There are a whole bunch of things I just do without. But if I get hit by a truck, maybe I don't go bankrupt."

    Notice his disdain for those who buy high-deductible policies to protect themselves only from unexpected and unmanageable health-care costs. They are too cheap or too dumb to reach into their own pockets for necessary care that isn't covered by their policy or triggers the deductible.

    These customers might like their plan. Their plan might even be the best cure, as many experts believe, for what ails our health-care system, namely too much incentive for Americans to overconsume health care. But Mr. Obama doesn't like their plans so they can't keep them.

    More on site...
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Oct 30, 2013 11:26 PM GMT
    leatherblond saidWhy should I believe you when Joe wrote that the Tea Party "cut the individual mandate." That must be the truth because Joe wrote that in the other Obama care topic.


    Qft
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    Nov 01, 2013 2:54 AM GMT
    leatherblond said
    HottJoe said
    leatherblond saidWhy should I believe you when Joe wrote that the Tea Party "cut the individual mandate." That must be the truth because Joe wrote that in the other Obama care topic.



    Qft


    How did the tea party cut the individual mandate Joe?

    I'd also be interested in hearing that explanation.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Nov 01, 2013 3:21 AM GMT
    You guys are asking the wrong questions. This whole "healthscare" debate is irrelevant and over. It's a law, even if it needs a little tweaking still, but it's becoming a sideshow, distracting us from more pressing issues. Have you not been following the news??? Russia is harboring America's enemy number one: SNOWDEN. And now China is insinuating dubious threats of their own. There are spies on both sides, and the cold war seems to be warming up again. President Reagan would roll over in his grave if he knew about this. Now, it's time we sit down and have a bipartisan discussion about how we're going to deal with this mess.
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    Nov 01, 2013 3:41 AM GMT
    This is comedy gold right here.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3279

    Nov 01, 2013 4:34 AM GMT
    Pass a deliberately defective law? I dont think so. That is just to Alex Jones for me. But I think there will be a call to take advantage of a "crisis".

    It would be a logical next step for the proponents of a single payer system to try to use this situation to their political advantage. Little do they realize ( because they do not get information outside their "democratic underground" world ) they HAVE NO POLITICAL ADVANTAGE.

    The ACA barely passed, and it was amended with a budgetary trick, ( reconciliation). How is a single payer system to pass in the next 18 months?
    I can see two ways, one if Jesus Christ comes down and endorses the bill, two if the NSA threatens to publish naked pictures of each member of the republican house and Senate.

    Beyond those 2 unlikely scenarios further healthcare reform on the progressive spectrum will be impossible.

    The whole story of the ACA has not played out but it is likely to set back the progressive cause for a generation.

    What is shown over and over is that you can throw a whole lot of money and government at a problem and they manage to worsen the problem.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3279

    Nov 01, 2013 4:35 AM GMT
    HottJoe saidYou guys are asking the wrong questions. This whole "healthscare" debate is irrelevant and over. It's a law, even if it needs a little tweaking still, but it's becoming a sideshow, distracting us from more pressing issues. Have you not been following the news??? Russia is harboring America's enemy number one: SNOWDEN. And now China is insinuating dubious threats of their own. There are spies on both sides, and the cold war seems to be warming up again. President Reagan would roll over in his grave if he knew about this. Now, it's time we sit down and have a bipartisan discussion about how we're going to deal with this mess.


    The ACA is a law, how in the world is it to be amended without bipartisan help? What republican would touch that in this situation? It is radioactive......


    As for the foreign policy information.....
    Ok maybe you can tell President Obama, apparently no one has told him about that yet.

    Every important thing that happens he reads it in the paper or finds out last.

    As for bipartisan talk, Obama and his advisers don't even talk to their own party. Could I ever hope for a day of President Biden? I think we are at the point were that idiot at least is plugged into Washington.

  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Nov 01, 2013 5:16 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    HottJoe saidYou guys are asking the wrong questions. This whole "healthscare" debate is irrelevant and over. It's a law, even if it needs a little tweaking still, but it's becoming a sideshow, distracting us from more pressing issues. Have you not been following the news??? Russia is harboring America's enemy number one: SNOWDEN. And now China is insinuating dubious threats of their own. There are spies on both sides, and the cold war seems to be warming up again. President Reagan would roll over in his grave if he knew about this. Now, it's time we sit down and have a bipartisan discussion about how we're going to deal with this mess.


    The ACA is a law, how in the world is it to be amended without bipartisan help? What republican would touch that in this situation? It is radioactive......


    As for the foreign policy information.....
    Ok maybe you can tell President Obama, apparently no one has told him about that yet.

    Every important thing that happens he reads it in the paper or finds out last.

    As for bipartisan talk, Obama and his advisers don't even talk to their own party. Could I ever hope for a day of President Biden? I think we are at the point were that idiot at least is plugged into Washington.


    I sense your frustration, but we can't wait until 2016 to make progress. Other nations aren't waiting.

    The ACA really isn't as radioactive as you think, or at least it doesn't have to be. The republicans are blaming Obama---by siding with corrupt insurance companies!!! Now that's radioactive, and they don't seem to realize that.

    If you're not ready to support the ACA, I say you just drop it, before the country suspects the tea party of being funded by the most loathed industry in America.
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3279

    Nov 01, 2013 6:03 AM GMT
    HottJoe said
    musclmed said
    HottJoe saidYou guys are asking the wrong questions. This whole "healthscare" debate is irrelevant and over. It's a law, even if it needs a little tweaking still, but it's becoming a sideshow, distracting us from more pressing issues. Have you not been following the news??? Russia is harboring America's enemy number one: SNOWDEN. And now China is insinuating dubious threats of their own. There are spies on both sides, and the cold war seems to be warming up again. President Reagan would roll over in his grave if he knew about this. Now, it's time we sit down and have a bipartisan discussion about how we're going to deal with this mess.


    The ACA is a law, how in the world is it to be amended without bipartisan help? What republican would touch that in this situation? It is radioactive......


    As for the foreign policy information.....
    Ok maybe you can tell President Obama, apparently no one has told him about that yet.

    Every important thing that happens he reads it in the paper or finds out last.

    As for bipartisan talk, Obama and his advisers don't even talk to their own party. Could I ever hope for a day of President Biden? I think we are at the point were that idiot at least is plugged into Washington.


    I sense your frustration, but we can't wait until 2016 to make progress. Other nations aren't waiting.

    The ACA really isn't as radioactive as you think, or at least it doesn't have to be. The republicans are blaming Obama---by siding with corrupt insurance companies!!! Now that's radioactive, and they don't seem to realize that.

    If you're not ready to support the ACA, I say you just drop it, before the country suspects the tea party of being funded by the most loathed industry in America.


    Let us dispel with the myth that Republicans in this situation are siding with the "insurance companies". This law was crafted essentially by the insurance lobby. They have a captive market now with federal subsidies.

    By law now you have to buy an insurance product. END OF STORY.

    As for single payer , you may live one day to see that possibly.

    FYI from a MD blogger , http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2009/07/americas-failed-attempt-at-a-single-payer-system-the-indian-health-service.html
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Nov 01, 2013 6:08 AM GMT
    musclmed said
    HottJoe said
    musclmed said
    HottJoe saidYou guys are asking the wrong questions. This whole "healthscare" debate is irrelevant and over. It's a law, even if it needs a little tweaking still, but it's becoming a sideshow, distracting us from more pressing issues. Have you not been following the news??? Russia is harboring America's enemy number one: SNOWDEN. And now China is insinuating dubious threats of their own. There are spies on both sides, and the cold war seems to be warming up again. President Reagan would roll over in his grave if he knew about this. Now, it's time we sit down and have a bipartisan discussion about how we're going to deal with this mess.


    The ACA is a law, how in the world is it to be amended without bipartisan help? What republican would touch that in this situation? It is radioactive......


    As for the foreign policy information.....
    Ok maybe you can tell President Obama, apparently no one has told him about that yet.

    Every important thing that happens he reads it in the paper or finds out last.

    As for bipartisan talk, Obama and his advisers don't even talk to their own party. Could I ever hope for a day of President Biden? I think we are at the point were that idiot at least is plugged into Washington.


    I sense your frustration, but we can't wait until 2016 to make progress. Other nations aren't waiting.

    The ACA really isn't as radioactive as you think, or at least it doesn't have to be. The republicans are blaming Obama---by siding with corrupt insurance companies!!! Now that's radioactive, and they don't seem to realize that.

    If you're not ready to support the ACA, I say you just drop it, before the country suspects the tea party of being funded by the most loathed industry in America.


    Let us dispel with the myth that Republicans in this situation are siding with the "insurance companies". This law was crafted essentially by the insurance lobby. They have a captive market now with federal subsidies.

    By law now you have to buy an insurance product. END OF STORY.

    If republicans saw this coming, as you describe it, then why cut the public option?
  • musclmed

    Posts: 3279

    Nov 01, 2013 6:12 AM GMT
    HottJoe said
    musclmed said
    HottJoe said
    musclmed said
    HottJoe saidave to buy an insurance product. END OF STORY.

    If republicans saw this coming, as you describe it, then why cut the public option?


    Cut what public option? The republicans tried and failed numerous times to remove the individual mandate. They made their point they thought it was bad idea.

    If you are referring to the early negotiations about what type of form the ACA would take. This occured in 2009 when both houses were controlled by Democrats.

    The republicans did not craft any part of the law.

    Ask Obama why he cut out the public option, maybe he got paid, maybe he knew it wouldnt pass? Who knows. But the republicans didnt cut anything.

    [url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/ny-times-reporter-confirm_b_500999.html
    [/url]
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Nov 01, 2013 4:03 PM GMT
    If republicans saw this coming, why didn't they petition for a public option. It's like they wanted the plane the crash, so they could say I told you so. But that's what third graders do, not responsible adults.
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    Nov 01, 2013 4:05 PM GMT
    HottJoe saidIf republicans saw this coming, why didn't they petition for a public option. It's like they wanted the plane the crash, so they could say I told you so. But that's what third graders do, not responsible adults.


    Why would Republicans fight for making the system even worse than it is so that the situation could be even more calamitous afterwards?
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    Nov 01, 2013 4:10 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe saidIf republicans saw this coming, why didn't they petition for a public option. It's like they wanted the plane the crash, so they could say I told you so. But that's what third graders do, not responsible adults.


    Why would Republicans fight for making the system even worse than it is so that the situation could be even more calamitous afterwards?


    Well, YOU want it to crash and burn, so why do you ask? icon_lol.gif
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Nov 01, 2013 4:12 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe saidIf republicans saw this coming, why didn't they petition for a public option. It's like they wanted the plane the crash, so they could say I told you so. But that's what third graders do, not responsible adults.


    Why would Republicans fight for making the system even worse than it is so that the situation could be even more calamitous afterwards?

    Republicans just want to use what leverage they have to make the insurance industry more powerful and give fewer choices to its customers. The U.S. government is actually its biggest customer and has been for decades. Democrats just want to ensure that all Americans are protected and accounted for. Republicans only care about the interests of big tobacco, et al.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Nov 01, 2013 4:16 PM GMT
    leatherblond saidRiddler78. Joe hasn't got a clue of what he's talking about. He stated 2 absurd, uninformed "facts" earlier this week:

    Me: Joe, did you believe the President was being truthful when he kept saying "If you like your health plan, you can keep it?" Or did you believe what he was saying to be a "sales pitch" all along?

    HottJoe: Yes, I believed him. He believed it too. Then the tea party sabotaged it, not because they have a better plan, but because they wanted to see Obama fail.

    Me: Specifically how did the tea party sabotage it?

    HottJoe: They cut the individual mandate and shut down the government.

    Me: The individual mandate is still there and in full effect. And how did the government shutdown earlier this month change the President's pledge of "If you like your current health plan, you can keep it" to be not true?


    Joe, how did the government shutdown invalidate the President's claim that if you like your health insurance plan you can keep your health insurance plan?

    If Riddler has an issue with me, he can tell me so himself. We don't a sock puppet to mediate our disputes. Kthxbye
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    Nov 01, 2013 6:13 PM GMT
    musclmed saidPass a deliberately defective law? I dont think so. That is just to Alex Jones for me. But I think there will be a call to take advantage of a "crisis".

    It would be a logical next step for the proponents of a single payer system to try to use this situation to their political advantage. Little do they realize ( because they do not get information outside their "democratic underground" world ) they HAVE NO POLITICAL ADVANTAGE.

    The ACA barely passed, and it was amended with a budgetary trick, ( reconciliation). How is a single payer system to pass in the next 18 months?
    I can see two ways, one if Jesus Christ comes down and endorses the bill, two if the NSA threatens to publish naked pictures of each member of the republican house and Senate.

    Beyond those 2 unlikely scenarios further healthcare reform on the progressive spectrum will be impossible.

    The whole story of the ACA has not played out but it is likely to set back the progressive cause for a generation.

    What is shown over and over is that you can throw a whole lot of money and government at a problem and they manage to worsen the problem.

    The premise is the law is not defective in the progressives' view. They view these anticipated problems as a stepping stone to complete government takeover. I think the one big miscalculation was Obama and his ego, thinking he could fool people into not believing he lied and that the media would obediently go along with him.
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    Nov 01, 2013 6:28 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe saidIf republicans saw this coming, why didn't they petition for a public option. It's like they wanted the plane the crash, so they could say I told you so. But that's what third graders do, not responsible adults.


    Why would Republicans fight for making the system even worse than it is so that the situation could be even more calamitous afterwards?


    Well, YOU want it to crash and burn, so why do you ask? icon_lol.gif


    I don't need to want it to crash and burn - it's doing that quite well on its own and by design. Attempting to add a public option would only have made things fail sooner. I'm sorry you don't understand simple economics. icon_wink.gif
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    Nov 01, 2013 6:29 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe saidIf republicans saw this coming, why didn't they petition for a public option. It's like they wanted the plane the crash, so they could say I told you so. But that's what third graders do, not responsible adults.


    Why would Republicans fight for making the system even worse than it is so that the situation could be even more calamitous afterwards?

    Republicans just want to use what leverage they have to make the insurance industry more powerful and give fewer choices to its customers. The U.S. government is actually its biggest customer and has been for decades. Democrats just want to ensure that all Americans are protected and accounted for. Republicans only care about the interests of big tobacco, et al.


    The irony is that you can only see Republicans in the lens of bought partisans and yet, that's precisely what happened under ACA in order to bring onside the pharmaceutical industry, and parts of the insurance industry while selling out the medical equipment manufacturers. But that's because of how the law was written by the Democrats.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Nov 01, 2013 6:42 PM GMT
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe saidIf republicans saw this coming, why didn't they petition for a public option. It's like they wanted the plane the crash, so they could say I told you so. But that's what third graders do, not responsible adults.


    Why would Republicans fight for making the system even worse than it is so that the situation could be even more calamitous afterwards?

    Republicans just want to use what leverage they have to make the insurance industry more powerful and give fewer choices to its customers. The U.S. government is actually its biggest customer and has been for decades. Democrats just want to ensure that all Americans are protected and accounted for. Republicans only care about the interests of big tobacco, et al.


    The irony is that you can only see Republicans in the lens of bought partisans and yet, that's precisely what happened under ACA in order to bring onside the pharmaceutical industry, and parts of the insurance industry while selling out the medical equipment manufacturers. But that's because of how the law was written by the Democrats.

    Republicans hate the POTUS so much that they'd rather pay taxes to China then keep the United States united. Kind of hard to be bipartisan with people who are in that state of mind.
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    Nov 01, 2013 6:46 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe saidIf republicans saw this coming, why didn't they petition for a public option. It's like they wanted the plane the crash, so they could say I told you so. But that's what third graders do, not responsible adults.


    Why would Republicans fight for making the system even worse than it is so that the situation could be even more calamitous afterwards?

    Republicans just want to use what leverage they have to make the insurance industry more powerful and give fewer choices to its customers. The U.S. government is actually its biggest customer and has been for decades. Democrats just want to ensure that all Americans are protected and accounted for. Republicans only care about the interests of big tobacco, et al.


    The irony is that you can only see Republicans in the lens of bought partisans and yet, that's precisely what happened under ACA in order to bring onside the pharmaceutical industry, and parts of the insurance industry while selling out the medical equipment manufacturers. But that's because of how the law was written by the Democrats.

    Republicans hate the POTUS so much that they'd rather pay taxes to China then keep the United States united. Kind of hard to be bipartisan with people who are in that state of mind.


    I'm just wondering when you're going to answer leatherblond's question

    "HottJoe: They cut the individual mandate."

    When did they manage to do this? It's great news though, but I didn't hear anything about it except from you.
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    Nov 01, 2013 6:54 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe said
    riddler78 said
    HottJoe saidIf republicans saw this coming, why didn't they petition for a public option. It's like they wanted the plane the crash, so they could say I told you so. But that's what third graders do, not responsible adults.


    Why would Republicans fight for making the system even worse than it is so that the situation could be even more calamitous afterwards?

    Republicans just want to use what leverage they have to make the insurance industry more powerful and give fewer choices to its customers. The U.S. government is actually its biggest customer and has been for decades. Democrats just want to ensure that all Americans are protected and accounted for. Republicans only care about the interests of big tobacco, et al.


    The irony is that you can only see Republicans in the lens of bought partisans and yet, that's precisely what happened under ACA in order to bring onside the pharmaceutical industry, and parts of the insurance industry while selling out the medical equipment manufacturers. But that's because of how the law was written by the Democrats.

    Republicans hate the POTUS so much that they'd rather pay taxes to China then keep the United States united. Kind of hard to be bipartisan with people who are in that state of mind.


    It is curious you've chosen not to answer some pretty salient points re: tea partiers that you seem to have dug out off some extremist liberal site. It's also interesting you've chosen to evade the point of how the Administration and Democrats were bought and paid for by industry - including some in insurance in order to get the bill passed originally.