Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples or face fines

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 07, 2013 3:41 PM GMT
    I know this court decision about the Colorado baker was mentioned at the end of a few other threads here, begun months ago when the case first surfaced. But I thought the happy outcome deserved its own thread, if it hasn't been done already.

    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/06/21795833-judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples?lite

    131206-cake-discrimination-732p.photoblo
  • Fable

    Posts: 3866

    Dec 07, 2013 4:00 PM GMT
    Are you really gonna eat something from a homophobic baker?
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    Dec 07, 2013 4:01 PM GMT


    The Christian defense is no defense. I wonder how many wedding cakes were made or sold to divorcees getting married to someone else?
    According to Matthew, Christ said, "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.’

    So any couple that divorces for any other reason than cheating (infidelity)and marries others is committing adultery....and the penalty for adultery?

    Everything from being put to death to burning in a lake of fire.

    Now isn't it fun how homosexuality makes a great distraction from this? Talk about wagging the dog.icon_lol.gif Hypocrites.
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    Dec 07, 2013 4:10 PM GMT
    If the court had ruled otherwise a possible outcome could be that businesses of public accommodation could refuse service to others besides gays, based on religions convictions.

    We'd be back to racial segregation, and every kind of discrimination.

    "We don't serve Blacks."

    "But where is that in the Bible? I don't read that."

    "You don't have to, it's what *I* believe the Bible says. Because you can't challenge my private religious beliefs. And based on those religious beliefs I can deny service to Blacks, and gays, and unmarried couples, and Jews, and anyone else I think the Christian Bible and my faith says I can."
  • a303guy

    Posts: 829

    Dec 07, 2013 4:18 PM GMT
    fable saidAre you really gonna eat something from a homophobic baker?


    This.
  • secondstartot...

    Posts: 1314

    Dec 07, 2013 4:27 PM GMT
    a303guy said
    fable saidAre you really gonna eat something from a homophobic baker?


    This.


    I am sorry but cake is not a civil right
    ......yes we deserve equal rights and we all deserve freedom of speech ...but if people cant say things you don't like there is no free speech

    and honestly I am not sure whether they should be forced to serve us or not
    but I sure as hell would want to KNOW that they did not WANT to ..I dont believe in negative things like boycotting but rather positive things like supporting a company that is HONESTLY accepting.....especially anything to do with my wedding.....I dont want any essence of bigotry and cream of hate going into my cake...

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    Dec 07, 2013 4:29 PM GMT
    fable saidAre you really gonna eat something from a homophobic baker?


    I'd make him give me the cake, then toss it at floor at his feet and be all "Lol dumb bitch..."
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    Dec 07, 2013 4:31 PM GMT
    secondstartotheright said

    and honestly I am not sure whether they should be forced to serve us



    That's the problem right there. Believing that because we are gay that makes "us" some completely SEPARATE subhuman species with separate considerations about how THEY should act in relation to US. There's no they and us. It's all a we.
  • swimbud

    Posts: 115

    Dec 07, 2013 4:34 PM GMT
    As terrible as the shop's behavior was, I feel that as a private business they should have the right to dig their own grave. Not all "freedom" is good, but a loss of freedom (on the cake shop's part) is still a violation of rights in my own opinion.

    If this happened to me, of course I'd be outraged, and I'd be telling everyone what a bigot he was. He might even eventually go out of business for building such a reputation...but by forcing someone not to discriminate, you might get him to sell a few more cakes, but you cannot change his mind. He doesn't deserve to make cakes for gay couples!
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    Dec 07, 2013 4:39 PM GMT
    secondstartotheright said
    a303guy said
    fable saidAre you really gonna eat something from a homophobic baker?


    This.


    I am sorry but cake is not a civil right
    ......yes we deserve equal rights and we all deserve freedom of speech ...but if people cant say things you don't like there is no free speech

    and honestly I am not sure whether they should be forced to serve us or not
    but I sure as hell would want to KNOW that they did not WANT to ..I dont believe in negative things like boycotting but rather positive things like supporting a company that is HONESTLY accepting.....especially anything to do with my wedding.....I dont want any essence of bigotry and cream of hate going into my cake...



    Hmmm...should your bank be able to refuse service? Your doctor? Your pharmacist? Fedex, amazon.com? Your grocery store?
    -intrigued
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    Dec 07, 2013 4:41 PM GMT
    Everyone saidNobody is forcing them, they can go do something else if they want.


    Oh absolutely, but the thing about private businesses is they fall under the rubric of a wider law, specifically city and state law. Your personal, private views don't extend indiscriminately to how you serve a customer base in a profit enterprise. I shouldn't have to go anywhere else. As a citizen under a law consuming from a business that is tied to the same blanket of that law I have a right to be served at that business.
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    Dec 07, 2013 4:43 PM GMT
    Matiz said
    Everyone saidNobody is forcing them, they can go do something else if they want.


    Oh absolutely, but the thing about private businesses is they fall under the rubric of a wider law, specifically city and state law. Your personal, private views don't extend indiscriminately to how you serve a customer base in a profit enterprise. I shouldn't have to go anywhere else. As a citizen under a law consuming from a business that is tied to the same blanket of that law I have a right to be served at that business.


    Pretty much this.
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    Dec 07, 2013 4:49 PM GMT
    fable saidAre you really gonna eat something from a homophobic baker?



    This is not what it's all about, it's about being treated equally as mentioned above and having the court voting in their favor let's not forget it, it's obvious they won't go there afterwards. The issue is no longer the cake but seeing its baker baking it and be like "yeah bitch" . Talking about sweet revenge icon_twisted.gif
  • secondstartot...

    Posts: 1314

    Dec 07, 2013 4:52 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    secondstartotheright said
    a303guy said
    fable saidAre you really gonna eat something from a homophobic baker?


    This.


    I am sorry but cake is not a civil right
    ......yes we deserve equal rights and we all deserve freedom of speech ...but if people cant say things you don't like there is no free speech

    and honestly I am not sure whether they should be forced to serve us or not
    but I sure as hell would want to KNOW that they did not WANT to ..I dont believe in negative things like boycotting but rather positive things like supporting a company that is HONESTLY accepting.....especially anything to do with my wedding.....I dont want any essence of bigotry and cream of hate going into my cake...



    Hmmm...should your bank be able to refuse service? Your doctor? Your pharmacist? Fedex, amazon.com? Your grocery store?
    -intrigued


    I hear you ....and I agree ...but something about it bothers me ...I just dont want to ever accidentally have a bigot bake me a wedding cake
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    Dec 07, 2013 4:53 PM GMT
    swimbud saidAs terrible as the shop's behavior was, I feel that as a private business they should have the right to dig their own grave. Not all "freedom" is good, but a loss of freedom (on the cake shop's part) is still a violation of rights in my own opinion.

    If this happened to me, of course I'd be outraged, and I'd be telling everyone what a bigot he was. He might even eventually go out of business for building such a reputation...but by forcing someone not to discriminate, you might get him to sell a few more cakes, but you cannot change his mind. He doesn't deserve to make cakes for gay couples!

    But they are NOT a private business, even if they are privately owned. They are licensed by the State of Colorado as a place of public accommodation.

    Do they have the right to violate health codes? Refuse to be inspected for cleanliness? How about following building fire codes? Decline to provide handicapped access? Can they refuse to pay their annual business license fee?

    They're not making cakes for their friends out of their home kitchen, they chose to open for public business, and so therefore voluntarily agreed to comply with all the laws and regulations governing a business serving the public.

    Now if they refuse to let a gay enter their private home that's perfectly legal. But not their publicly licensed & regulated business.

    And if you don't understand that distinction, and why failure to prosecute this owner would lead to legal segregation and widespread discrimination rearing it's ugly head in the US once again, then you must have skipped all your US history and political science classes when you were in school.
  • secondstartot...

    Posts: 1314

    Dec 07, 2013 4:56 PM GMT
    ART_DECO said
    swimbud saidAs terrible as the shop's behavior was, I feel that as a private business they should have the right to dig their own grave. Not all "freedom" is good, but a loss of freedom (on the cake shop's part) is still a violation of rights in my own opinion.

    If this happened to me, of course I'd be outraged, and I'd be telling everyone what a bigot he was. He might even eventually go out of business for building such a reputation...but by forcing someone not to discriminate, you might get him to sell a few more cakes, but you cannot change his mind. He doesn't deserve to make cakes for gay couples!

    But they are NOT a private business, even if they are privately owned. They are licensed by the State of Colorado as a place of public accommodation.

    Do they have the right to violate health codes? Refuse to be inspected for cleanliness? How about following building fire codes? Decline to provide handicapped access? Can they refuse to pay their annual business license fee?

    They're not making cakes for their friends out of their home kitchen, they chose to open for public business, and so therefore voluntarily agreed to comply with all the laws and regulations governing a business serving the public.

    Now if they refuse to let a gay enter their private home that's perfectly legal. But not their publicly licensed & regulated business.

    And if you don't understand that distinction, and why failure to prosecute this owner would lead to legal segregation and widespread discrimination rearing it's ugly head in the US once again, then you must have skipped all your US history and political science classes when you were in school.


    ok this makes sense now....fortunately I know enough fabulous bakers that in reality should I find myself getting married this wont be a problem
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    Dec 07, 2013 4:57 PM GMT
    ART_DECO saidIf the court had ruled otherwise a possible outcome could be that businesses of public accommodation could refuse service to others besides gays, based on religions convictions.

    We'd be back to racial segregation, and every kind of discrimination.

    "We don't serve Blacks."

    "But where is that in the Bible? I don't read that."

    "You don't have to, it's what *I* believe the Bible says. Because you can't challenge my private religious beliefs. And based on those religious beliefs I can deny service to Blacks, and gays, and unmarried couples, and Jews, and anyone else I think the Christian Bible and my faith says I can."


    Actually we're not back to the sorts of discrimination you name (not that anti-gay discrimination isn't just as vile). From the Civil Rights Act of 1964:

    TITLE II--INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST DISCRIMINATION IN PLACES OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION

    OOOSEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.
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    Dec 07, 2013 4:59 PM GMT
    secondstartotheright said
    meninlove said
    secondstartotheright said
    a303guy said
    fable saidAre you really gonna eat something from a homophobic baker?


    This.


    I am sorry but cake is not a civil right
    ......yes we deserve equal rights and we all deserve freedom of speech ...but if people cant say things you don't like there is no free speech

    and honestly I am not sure whether they should be forced to serve us or not
    but I sure as hell would want to KNOW that they did not WANT to ..I dont believe in negative things like boycotting but rather positive things like supporting a company that is HONESTLY accepting.....especially anything to do with my wedding.....I dont want any essence of bigotry and cream of hate going into my cake...



    Hmmm...should your bank be able to refuse service? Your doctor? Your pharmacist? Fedex, amazon.com? Your grocery store?
    -intrigued


    I hear you ....and I agree ...but something about it bothers me ...I just dont want to ever accidentally have a bigot bake me a wedding cake


    ...and I hear you with that. I wouldn't want some bigot spitting in my cake.
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    Dec 07, 2013 5:24 PM GMT
    meninlove said

    The Christian defense is no defense. I wonder how many wedding cakes were made or sold to divorcees getting married to someone else?
    According to Matthew, Christ said, "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.’

    So any couple that divorces for any other reason than cheating (infidelity)and marries others is committing adultery....and the penalty for adultery?

    Everything from being put to death to burning in a lake of fire.

    Now isn't it fun how homosexuality makes a great distraction from this? Talk about wagging the dog.icon_lol.gif Hypocrites.


    The flaw in your argument is that you're using the truth and actual facts. Bigots don't rely on the truth or facts, they just manipulate facts in their favor or just don't care at all. The moment you say, "wait a second..." is the moment you've wasted too much energy. These people are rarely worth your time unless you can interact with them frequently enough to truly hold them accountable.
  • a303guy

    Posts: 829

    Dec 07, 2013 6:49 PM GMT
    secondstartotheright said
    a303guy said
    fable saidAre you really gonna eat something from a homophobic baker?


    This.


    I am sorry but cake is not a civil right
    ......yes we deserve equal rights and we all deserve freedom of speech ...but if people cant say things you don't like there is no free speech

    and honestly I am not sure whether they should be forced to serve us or not
    but I sure as hell would want to KNOW that they did not WANT to ..I dont believe in negative things like boycotting but rather positive things like supporting a company that is HONESTLY accepting.....especially anything to do with my wedding.....I dont want any essence of bigotry and cream of hate going into my cake...



    You are seeing this exactly the way I do.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 08, 2013 11:14 AM GMT
    Why do gays want to order cakes from a homophobic baker? This doesn't make any sense at all. In my opinion he is now being discriminated against for his religion, which is just as bad as discriminating against gays. If his religion is against gay marriage, then he should have the right and freedom to follow his religion and not be forced to act contrary to his religion by servicing a gay marriage that his religion does not approve. If he was a barber, he would probably have no problem cutting gays hair because getting your hair cut is not against his religion. lol It's not that he doesn't want to do business with gays, but that he doesn't want to perform a service for a GAY MARRIAGE that his religion is against. The objection is to the institution of gay marriage, not to doing business with gays. He would probably have no problem baking a cake for gays for any other event that is not against his religion. (i.e your birthday) There's a big difference between baking a cake for a birthday and baking a cake for a gay wedding. Most religions would not object to anyone baking a cake for a birthday of a gay person, but many do object to baking a cake for a gay wedding, which is what they are objecting to, not the person. That's why a Christian doctor would have no problem providing health care to a gay patient. But if this Christian doctor was also a photographer or liked to bake cakes, he may not want to take pictures of your gay wedding or bake a cake for your gay wedding because it would be showing approval of gay marriage, which his religion doesn't approve. What you need to understand here is that Christians who object to homosexuality are objecting to the activity, not to the person themself. They don't believe that anyone is born gay, but that all homosexual desires are sinful temptations that can be overcome, no different than hate or greed, which can become emotional desires in people. They see homosexuality as a type of sexual sin, not as a class of people, like race or color of skin.
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    Dec 08, 2013 12:07 PM GMT
    Aristoshark said
    swimbud saidAs terrible as the shop's behavior was, I feel that as a private business they should have the right to dig their own grave. Not all "freedom" is good, but a loss of freedom (on the cake shop's part) is still a violation of rights in my own opinion.

    If this happened to me, of course I'd be outraged, and I'd be telling everyone what a bigot he was. He might even eventually go out of business for building such a reputation...but by forcing someone not to discriminate, you might get him to sell a few more cakes, but you cannot change his mind. He doesn't deserve to make cakes for gay couples!

    This isn't about whether gays should attempt to buy cakes from this putz or not. This is about the 60+ year settled law that any business that is a "public accommodation" cannot discriminate based on immutable characteristics, like sex, race, religion, and sexual orientation. That whole "we reserve the right to refuse to serve anyone we fucking well please" sign that you see in certain stores and restaurants has no legal standing whatever.
    THANK YOU, Shark!

    God I can't fucking believe this is even a discussion. Some of you young'uns need to re-read (or read) your history books in order to understand what the civil rights era was all about - and how repugnant a society America was in the years before the Civil Rights Act was passed.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 08, 2013 12:11 PM GMT
    I agree totally with swimbud: “...by forcing someone not to discriminate, you might get him to sell a few more cakes, but you cannot change his mind. He doesn't deserve to make cakes for gay couples!”
    But men in love also have a good point with “...should your bank be able to refuse service? Your doctor? Your pharmacist? Fedex, amazon.com? Your grocery store?
    Absolutely not!
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    Dec 08, 2013 12:35 PM GMT
    rkyjockdn said
    ART_DECO saidIf the court had ruled otherwise a possible outcome could be that businesses of public accommodation could refuse service to others besides gays, based on religions convictions.

    We'd be back to racial segregation, and every kind of discrimination.

    "We don't serve Blacks."

    "But where is that in the Bible? I don't read that."

    "You don't have to, it's what *I* believe the Bible says. Because you can't challenge my private religious beliefs. And based on those religious beliefs I can deny service to Blacks, and gays, and unmarried couples, and Jews, and anyone else I think the Christian Bible and my faith says I can."

    Actually we're not back to the sorts of discrimination you name (not that anti-gay discrimination isn't just as vile). From the Civil Rights Act of 1964:

    TITLE II--INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST DISCRIMINATION IN PLACES OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION

    OOOSEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

    It's true Republicans in Congress have blocked extending civil rights protections to include gays, and also in many states. But some states like Washington do have their own laws that protect gays in places of public accommodation. Plus President Obama has extended some protections to Federal gay workers through Executive Order, that his predecessor Bush had eliminated. And this is what judges could specifically strike down.

    Furthermore the entire public accommodations provision of the Civil Rights Act could be at risk. Defenders of business people like this Colorado baker use the defense of religious belief, which applies to the entire Act. In fact, it could be made to apply to ANY US or state law.

    If religious belief supersedes compliance with any part of the law it can supersede any OTHER part of the law. Indeed, a judge who sided with the defendants would likely have to invalidate the entire Act. To allow individuals to cherry pick what parts of the law they could choose to ignore or obey would not only be unprecedented, it would create judicial chaos and effectively gut the entire law.
  • secondstartot...

    Posts: 1314

    Dec 08, 2013 12:41 PM GMT
    ART_DECO said
    rkyjockdn said
    ART_DECO saidIf the court had ruled otherwise a possible outcome could be that businesses of public accommodation could refuse service to others besides gays, based on religions convictions.

    We'd be back to racial segregation, and every kind of discrimination.

    "We don't serve Blacks."

    "But where is that in the Bible? I don't read that."

    "You don't have to, it's what *I* believe the Bible says. Because you can't challenge my private religious beliefs. And based on those religious beliefs I can deny service to Blacks, and gays, and unmarried couples, and Jews, and anyone else I think the Christian Bible and my faith says I can."

    Actually we're not back to the sorts of discrimination you name (not that anti-gay discrimination isn't just as vile). From the Civil Rights Act of 1964:

    TITLE II--INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST DISCRIMINATION IN PLACES OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION

    OOOSEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.

    It's true Republicans in Congress have blocked extending civil rights protections to include gays, and also in many states. But some states like Washington do have their own laws that protect gays in places of public accommodation. Plus President Obama has extended some protections to Federal gay workers through Executive Order, that his predecessor Bush had eliminated. And this is what judges could specifically strike down.

    Furthermore the entire public accommodations provision of the Civil Rights Act could be at risk. Defenders of business people like this Colorado baker use the defense of religious belief, which applies to the entire Act. In fact, it could be made to apply to ANY US or state law.

    If religious belief supersedes compliance with any part of the law it can supersede ANY part of the law. Indeed, a judge who sided with the defendants would likely have to invalidate the entire Act. To allow individuals to cherry pick what parts of the law they could choose to ignore or obey would not only be unprecedented, it would create judicial chaos and effectively gut the entire law.


    this is very interesting ...not being from the US Im not versed in all your law...so hypothetically this should work in reverse too then ? say for example Im a wedding cake maker and some known anti gay lobbyist or neo nazi or whatever wants to have me specially make them a cake I have to make them a cake ?