Did the prejudice against homosexuals help create the masculine era?

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    Jan 07, 2014 6:54 PM GMT
    I mean no disrespect, so just hear me out.

    It's a very common fact that the way gays are treated today is a lot better than they were treated decades ago. Yes, it's true, our society still dumps on the LGBT community whenever they have an opportunity to; however, being gay is becoming more widely accepted.

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    It would be fair to assume that those force to live a closeted life adapted to certain characteristic and mannerism that might better be described as similar to, or indistinguishable from your average straight man. More people today are being accepted and unrestricted to blossom into any person they want to be, allowing them to explore avenues they might not have explored under the scrutiny of oppressive peers.

    Our generation is diverse and so it should be, but from my personal interactions, I've noticed a much more masculine "Mature" generation than I do in my own.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity
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    Jan 07, 2014 7:06 PM GMT
    Hmm...I didn't realize being masculine has an era.
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    Jan 07, 2014 7:15 PM GMT
    Erik101 saidHmm...I didn't realize being masculine has an era.


    Did you read the original thread? It states through opinion via my interactions with other that the 'mature' or older generation tends to present itself more masculine than those of mine.
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    Jan 07, 2014 11:29 PM GMT
    At first I thought you were referring the physical masculinization of gay men in the '80s as a response to the AIDS epidemic.

    If what you say is true, if gay men counterintuitively seem more masculine even in this most accepted era, perhaps fewer need to be flamboyantly out and proud and visible in the name of gay rights, leaving only the truly feminine-identifying to be themselves and put forth an image that is less than traditionally masculine.
  • 1AlanZSky

    Posts: 1505

    Jan 08, 2014 12:00 AM GMT
    Avi Dar was his screen name.
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    Jan 08, 2014 12:13 AM GMT
    You know, I can kind of see this being true, somewhat.
    But then, I can also kind of see what mr. Yourname is saying as well..
    But I mean why do we always have to label every goddamn thing??
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Jan 08, 2014 12:24 AM GMT
    YourName2000 saidI disagree with your premise. If anything, society is feminizing rather than masculating. Today's society is more formed on social groups, supporting others, and communicating than it has ever been before. The "lone wolf" male leader is becoming an anachronism.

    The lone wolves are feared.
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    Jan 08, 2014 1:18 AM GMT
    SolvableMystery saidIt's a very common fact that the way gays are treated today is a lot better than they were treated decades ago. ...
    It would be fair to assume that those force to live a closeted life adapted to certain characteristic and mannerism that might better be described as similar to, or indistinguishable from your average straight man.

    To a certain extent this may well be true. I abandoned the gay community for several decades. When I came back what surprised me was how sexually prudish and victorian today's gays are now, and the widespread belief that one can't be happy unless they are in a long term relationship or married. At first it bothered me because I felt that we'd given up recognizing that men are naturally sex hounds, and I don't like how now so many look down their noses and sneer at guys who are comfortable with casual sex. But after awhile I realized that the gay community has effectively redefined itself as not being the sluts we were before the AIDS shit hit the fan and as a result we're now considerably more acceptable to heterosexuals. Your masculinity theory may well be a part of this redefining of ourselves.
  • killercliche

    Posts: 948

    Jan 08, 2014 2:30 AM GMT
    SolvableMystery said

    It would be fair to assume that those force to live a closeted life adapted to certain characteristic and mannerism that might better be described as similar to, or indistinguishable from your average straight man.


    I would take issue with this statement as it assumes that there is a certain way that gay men are predisposed to act, or that there is a certain "natural way" for the gay man to act.

    This, to me, is a product of a sort of media brainwashing. In order to put minority groups in the spotlight, they generally are brought forth in a comedic light that plays off of stereotypes. This is commonly seen in the poor black family sitcoms (the Cosby's being the exception to the rule). The gay minority follows suit with shows like Will and Grace.

    As a result, people believe that the stereotype is the sole truth, when is it just a handful of happenstance strung together.
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    Jan 08, 2014 2:37 AM GMT
    Yeah. Older guys had to hide any trace of being gay so they had to be married even though they may have been on the feminine side. I find though that places that it is OK to be gay like amsterdam and sydney, that the guys all blend in compared to the US which is religiously biased against gay people.
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    Jan 08, 2014 4:21 AM GMT
    killercliche said
    SolvableMystery said

    It would be fair to assume that those force to live a closeted life adapted to certain characteristic and mannerism that might better be described as similar to, or indistinguishable from your average straight man.


    I would take issue with this statement as it assumes that there is a certain way that gay men are predisposed to act, or that there is a certain "natural way" for the gay man to act.

    This, to me, is a product of a sort of media brainwashing. In order to put minority groups in the spotlight, they generally are brought forth in a comedic light that plays off of stereotypes. This is commonly seen in the poor black family sitcoms (the Cosby's being the exception to the rule). The gay minority follows suit with shows like Will and Grace.

    As a result, people believe that the stereotype is the sole truth, when is it just a handful of happenstance strung together.


    Take no issue with my statement, as I can only speak based on my personal experience. Although you make a very valid point with the stereotypes portrayed by the media, a majority of guys I've met come across more along the lines of feminine mannerisms.

    There is nothing wrong of course with the way anyone acts, and whether or not the 'true gay man' is a feminine creature or not, the question still remains.

    Based on the conditioning of having to remain closeted and hidden, 'be a man' and 'toughen up', did you think the bigotry help lead the later generations in more of a masculine direction?
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    Jan 08, 2014 4:26 AM GMT
    SolvableMystery said
    Based on the conditioning of having to remain closeted and hidden, 'be a man' and 'toughen up', did you think the bigotry help lead the later generations in more of a masculine direction?


    Of course it has ! The men arguing with you about this are just trying to cloud the issue.
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    Jan 08, 2014 4:28 AM GMT


    'Be a man'... one of the worse things to say to any young man; but used to associate manliness in our society.
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    Jan 08, 2014 4:31 AM GMT
    woodsmen saidMay be we should explore what is masculinity? Straight men today shave body hair; pay attention to clothing, shoes, skin; going to spas; and so on. Are they being feminized?


    Stop trying to blow smoke over the point ling ling ! Bringing up exceptions to the rule ! We all know most straight men dont give a fuck about their appearance, hence why so many fat, ugly, old, nerdy, and any other physically unattractive type straight men can be found with the most beautiful women. 9 times out of ten when you look at straight couples the woman is more attractive, why ? Because straight men care less about their looks then gay man in general.
  • killercliche

    Posts: 948

    Jan 08, 2014 6:33 AM GMT
    knightmare said
    SolvableMystery said
    Based on the conditioning of having to remain closeted and hidden, 'be a man' and 'toughen up', did you think the bigotry help lead the later generations in more of a masculine direction?


    Of course it has ! The men arguing with you about this are just trying to cloud the issue.


    My point is actually different altogether. I do believe in America boys are hazed with the "be a man" methodology and are trained to act in certain ways.

    However, it is not much different than certain "gay scenes" having societal expectations on how to act.

    I take issue with an implications that all gay men secretly yearn to act in any certain way. It's a damaging supposition.

    My point is that a person is born a person, independent of these influences and does not inherently act "effeminate" or "masculine" as both sets of mannerisms are learned from outside sources.
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    Jan 08, 2014 7:08 AM GMT
    woodsmen said^I question that proposition. I was in Hawaii recently. Tropical birds especially the male are very colorful and perform complex dance to attract female birds which plumage is muted. Did male birds learn the complex dance or is this innate?

    I agree. I think a lot more is innate and controlled by our genes than we realize. Your example of the bird's mating dance is a good example. One that I like to use is how what I call the herding and grazing animals, cows, sheep, horses, etc. never "learn" how to walk, because they're born with that knowledge. I asked a friend who was a researcher in human development, PhD from Stanford, how it was that they were born with this ability and she said that their brains were pre-wired with the knowledge, the neurons were there at birth. Naturally it follows that it's their genes that caused their brains to develop that way.
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    Jan 08, 2014 7:34 AM GMT
    it may have been the other way around? looking at old gay footage from the 70's, most of the gay men appeared masculine, west coast and east coast. Yes, straight people didn't like masculine gay men, only a stereotype feminine

    we can see this from Harvey Milk

    When Harvey started his campaign, he looked like many gay men in around the Castro, he didn't win elections looking like this, mainstream straight people didn't take him seriously, he was too masculine, then the point in the movie where Harvey 'de-masculinized' him self to appeal to a larger vote, along with redistricting. He literally had to look the part to 'fit in'. I think this is the point in history where gay men became more accepted in society through feminization to distinguish themselves from everyone else. Another sign of feminization of gay men, at the Studio 54 entrance, Steve Rubell would not let anyone in that had facial hair, you had to be 'clean shaven', we all know mens facial hair is a sign of masculinity.

    I think the recent trends of beards, less waxing and more hair by gay men are taking back their original masculinity that was taken decades ago, I think that is why many men stayed in the closet, unwilling to give up their masculinity in order to 'fit in', more men are coming out than ever that are not giving up their masculinity and just being themselves

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    Jan 08, 2014 7:42 AM GMT
    Somehow the semi facist-inspired Rammstein saw where gayness is going, even way back in their 1995 debut album.

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    Jan 08, 2014 7:48 AM GMT
    along with Harvey Milk and Studio 54, the Village People were a anti feminization or a 'rebel' against the de-masculinization of gay men, thrown in the face of straight america, which most of us now know, the hidden double entendre in YMCA and their other songs. Straight america did not 'get it' for many years, gay men had to give up their masculine side, for society's sake.

    again, gay men are taking it back and thank God!







    as we compare the feminization ... manners, cooking, fashion, decorating, hair salons....

  • killercliche

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    Jan 08, 2014 8:49 AM GMT
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    woodsmen said^I question that proposition. I was in Hawaii recently. Tropical birds especially the male are very colorful and perform complex dance to attract female birds which plumage is muted. Did male birds learn the complex dance or is this innate?

    I agree. I think a lot more is innate and controlled by our genes than we realize. Your example of the bird's mating dance is a good example. One that I like to use is how what I call the herding and grazing animals, cows, sheep, horses, etc. never "learn" how to walk, because they're born with that knowledge. I asked a friend who was a researcher in human development, PhD from Stanford, how it was that they were born with this ability and she said that their brains were pre-wired with the knowledge, the neurons were there at birth. Naturally it follows that it's their genes that caused their brains to develop that way.


    I think comparing mating rituals to fashion taste, entertainment choices, hobbies, speech patterns and mannerisms etc is a bit of a stretch.
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    Jan 08, 2014 8:56 AM GMT
    killercliche said
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    woodsmen said^I question that proposition. I was in Hawaii recently. Tropical birds especially the male are very colorful and perform complex dance to attract female birds which plumage is muted. Did male birds learn the complex dance or is this innate?

    I agree. I think a lot more is innate and controlled by our genes than we realize. Your example of the bird's mating dance is a good example. One that I like to use is how what I call the herding and grazing animals, cows, sheep, horses, etc. never "learn" how to walk, because they're born with that knowledge. I asked a friend who was a researcher in human development, PhD from Stanford, how it was that they were born with this ability and she said that their brains were pre-wired with the knowledge, the neurons were there at birth. Naturally it follows that it's their genes that caused their brains to develop that way.

    I think comparing mating rituals to fashion taste, entertainment choices, hobbies, speech patterns and mannerisms etc is a bit of a stretch.

    But we're not comparing mating rituals to those things. We're simply stating that some supposedly learned behaviours aren't necessarily learned.
  • killercliche

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    Jan 08, 2014 9:25 AM GMT
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    killercliche said
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    woodsmen said^I question that proposition. I was in Hawaii recently. Tropical birds especially the male are very colorful and perform complex dance to attract female birds which plumage is muted. Did male birds learn the complex dance or is this innate?

    I agree. I think a lot more is innate and controlled by our genes than we realize. Your example of the bird's mating dance is a good example. One that I like to use is how what I call the herding and grazing animals, cows, sheep, horses, etc. never "learn" how to walk, because they're born with that knowledge. I asked a friend who was a researcher in human development, PhD from Stanford, how it was that they were born with this ability and she said that their brains were pre-wired with the knowledge, the neurons were there at birth. Naturally it follows that it's their genes that caused their brains to develop that way.

    I think comparing mating rituals to fashion taste, entertainment choices, hobbies, speech patterns and mannerisms etc is a bit of a stretch.

    But we're not comparing mating rituals to those things. We're simply stating that some supposedly learned behaviours aren't necessarily learned.


    which ones? masculine and feminine are societal constructs. Your examples were animalic mating rituals and learning to walk.
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    Jan 08, 2014 3:24 PM GMT
    Looks like my thread has been hijacked...

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  • killercliche

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    Jan 08, 2014 7:46 PM GMT
    woodsmen said(although Ms. Hines’ research found no such difference in children under a year old.)"


    I think this is the key part of the study. The question is at what age do children start becoming aware of social expectations. The answer seems to be at 2 years of age.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 08, 2014 7:48 PM GMT
    woodsmen said"which ones? masculine and feminine are societal constructs. Your examples were animalic mating rituals and learning to walk."

    There were studies where boys and girls were exposed to plastic toy vehicles and dolls. Boys gravitated towards plastic toy vehicles and girls to dolls. Was this learnt or innate?

    Here is an excerpt from a NYT Article on July 31, 2012: "Professor Melissa Hines, a neuroscientist at Cambridge University, ran tests on over 100 toddlers under the age of two and found that boys tended to prefer moving toys like cars and balls while girls more often picked dolls. Other studies have found a slight preference for redder colors among women than men, who tended to prefer blue (although Ms. Hines’ research found no such difference in children under a year old.)"

    Or perhaps an even earlier age example: you can measure a person's positive reaction to something, an image, by measuring the dilation of their pupil. Show them something they like and their pupil dilates. Someone did a study with babies and when they were shown a woman's face their iris dilated, a man's face, and especially one with a beard, and it didn't dilate. They even showed that if you changed the hair; had long hair on a man and short on a women that they still dilated for the woman; so the brain recognizes the facial structure of the genders.

    Why babies would prefer women makes sense if you think about when we were cavemen, and prior to being homo sapiens; the women stayed home and took care of the children. Women were more likely to be a safe person.