Creatine: Are Insulin Increases Worth the Gains?

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    Dec 16, 2008 9:31 AM GMT
    I've loaded and played out the Creatine cycle before. I did see gains in strength, but was always weary of the insulin and it's potential harm.

    I'm considering stating up another cycle and wondering if anyone has reassuring testimonials or horrifying stories of acne overloads and beefy beyond control catastrophes to share.

    Thanks.
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    Dec 16, 2008 6:20 PM GMT
    body-builder.jpg

    Enjoy icon_wink.gif
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    Dec 16, 2008 6:23 PM GMT
    Gosh, why not just take insulin? You can buy it anywhere in a pharmacy. If that's your thing.

    Works better than creatine and is cheaper.

    flex89 is a type 1 diabetic (his body does not produce insulin), so he gets his fair share. Insulin is a requirement of staying alive.

    What you don't want to develop is a loss of insulin sensitivity (type 2 diabetes).

    For creatine to invoke enough insulin response to get you anabolic, you need about 20g of glucose per gram of creatine.

    Remember: insulin is the most anabolic hormone of all.

    Personally, neither flex, nor I, creatine load any more. It's pricey. It's to watery. If you want enough insulin to be anabolic with it, you can go buy the stuff over the counter at any pharmacy. DOH!

    Insulin isn't bad. Isn't essential. What is bad is real fast sugars, and lowered insulin sensitivity / insulin tolerance. That means: fat folks who eat large amounts of simple sugars. That means: Type 2 diabetes.

    Now, weight lifting, and interval training, and cardio.... RAISE your insulin sensitivity, which is a VERY good thing.

    We have fat kids now who are Type 2 diabetic at 10 years old. Bad, bad, bad, thing. High blood sugar = lots of problems.

    By far and above, the leading killer in this country is being fat. 7 MILLION folks a year.

    For someone as thin as you are (the poster, RyanW), Dude, just eat. That'll keep you anabolic, too. The money you spend on creatine would be better spent on good solid food, or a weight gainer, rather than some expensive piss. EAT!!!

    Neither insulin, nor creatine, nor lifting, nor HIIT, give you zits, I assure you. How you can even consider any of that crap with any level of credence is pretty amazing.

    Here:
    http://www.gain-weight-muscle-fast.com/creatine-insulin.html
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    Dec 16, 2008 6:34 PM GMT
    An increase in insulin won't do anything more than drop your blood sugar a bit and make you eat more. Not to mention, if insulin caused zits, I'd be a walking pimple.

    The only way it'll cause damage is if you aren't eating enough, have a massive spike in your insulin levels (which is impossible without a heavy injection) and you pass out and whack your head on something. Otherwise, as long as your diet in general isn't one to put you at risk for type II diabetes, you've got nothing to sweat.

    Creatine your heart out, but insulin itself works much better.
  • UncleverName

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    Dec 16, 2008 6:41 PM GMT
    Hey guys

    You both sound like you know what you are talking about, so I'm going to ask you.
    I thought that Creatine was some kind of chemical that our bodies already produce. I thought that Creatine caused your body to retain more water, causing you to look more bloated, but that it also allowed your muscles to heal faster, allowing you to lift more often and harder.

    Is this not true?
    Does Insulin cause the same things as Creatine?
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    Dec 16, 2008 6:51 PM GMT
    Golly, have you read the Wiki, or searched on Google?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine
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    Dec 16, 2008 6:51 PM GMT
    Golly, have you read the Wiki, or searched on Google?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine
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    Dec 16, 2008 7:02 PM GMT
    I take insulin because i am a type 1 diabetic. I wouldn't fuck with it. It is so easy to overdose. One extra unit is the difference between functioning and being unconscious on the floor slowly dying.
  • UncleverName

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    Dec 16, 2008 7:05 PM GMT
    Thanks for the link Chucky.

    After reading it, I'm still completely unclear on how Insulin relates to Creatine, and why I would want to use Insulin instead of Creatine.

    Edit: for those of you still in dark like I was, here's a link that explains how Insulin relates to Creatine: http://www.creatinemonohydrate.net/insulin.html
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    Dec 16, 2008 7:12 PM GMT
    Muching, that's not really true with regard to 1IU, especially on someone who is not diabetic. Logan is a type 1 diabetic with a pump, so we have LOTS of experience with blood sugar management at our house. It's kinda like creatine will give you zits, or juice turns you into a raving lunatic....it's just not the case.

    Now, one can go hypo, but, we've given Logan as much as 42IU at a pop IM when he's gone high with a line kink on his pump, without a problem.

    Clearly, driving insulin with glucose, as the poster would suggest is a bad idea, and if one wants to go anabolic on insulin, it's simply a matter of buying it at any store.

    All the aforementioned being said, taking insulin and not eating is a prescription for going hypo, and, of course, with enough, you'd hit seizure. Like aspirin, or anything else, to much is bad. (A bottle of aspirin will make you bleed to death). Taking insulin without knowing what you are doing, like aspirin, certainly is not a good thing, but your comment about 1IU is obviously a bit of an overstatement.

    1 extra IU is certainly not going to put a normal person on the floor. If they didn't eat, they might go hypo, but, their liver would dump and they'd likely not be the worse for the wear, and normal pancreatic function did its thing. In a type 1 diabetic, 1U can make you swing one way or another, but, any type 1 will have a glucose meter nearby.

    I've had seen Logan as low as 29 on glucose, and as high as 450.
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    Dec 16, 2008 7:22 PM GMT
    100 iu will make you have a bad day, but it certainly won't kill you.

    Death by insulin overdose is extremely rare, and in most instances, you just end up with a massive headache and a hankering for pickles with peanut butter.

    To put yourself in a seizure requires a great deal of neglect. You would have to take more insulin than normal, then proceed to not eat for the following eight hours. Even then, you may or may not have any problems beyond moderate hypoglycemia.

    Hypoglycemia instigates a hunger response on its own, so even if your blood sugar were to tank, you'd have to really be stupid not to eat despite having gut-wrenching hunger.
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    Dec 16, 2008 7:25 PM GMT
    People's thresholds are different. At 29 I could not think clearly enough to help go eat some food before my brain turns into mush. Insulin also affects people differently. One unit in me is different than one unit in you. People can seriously and easily hurt themselves taking insulin when they do not need it. Yes, you mention that there are precautions and methods to taking it to make sure you don't wind up a quivering mass of dying jelly on the floor, but what is the point of supplementing it? Playing with a substance that could easily kill you for some gains in mass and strength just isn't worth it to me.
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    Dec 16, 2008 7:29 PM GMT
    What's your insulin sensitivity? Mine's been as high as 20g / iu, it's currently 11g / iu. One iu to me is frequently 2 iu to anyone else LOL!

    For all the dumb teens with diabetes I've known, I'd think they'd all be dead by now if insulin were so dangerous.
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    Dec 16, 2008 7:31 PM GMT
    Unclevername, I took the time to enter the following into Google.

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=creatine+insulin+relationship&btnG=Google+Search&aq=1&oq=

    Here:

    http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0026049502706938

    I hope that helps you to understand the relationship.

    While creatine will enhance your performance slightly, for solid weight gain you still need to be anabolic with an abundance of calories.

    Using sugar to drive endogenous insulin is a bad idea, because it'll lower your insulin sensitivity. That's how fat folks get to be type 2 diabetic.

    To use insulin as a training aid, better to take it directly, and take the right carbs, in a controlled environment.

    You see HUGE guys in bodybuilding which are creations of years of hard work, smart training, genetics, insulin, AAS, T3/T4, and lots of calories.

    Like a sports car with a blower, or nitrous, the human body's performance can be adjusted. Most race cars go fast, and don't blow up, providing the mixture are right and so on. Such is the way of science and the human machine.

    Our society is funky. It's o.k. to destroy your body with smoking, inactivity, being overweight, etc, but, to allow it to run at an enhanced level seems to be taboo with some folks (other adore it). Enhancing your lifestyle / performance is taboo in some areas (say AAS, insulin), but not others (plastic surgery, coffee). Go figure. It's ironic that the unhealthiest of the unhealthy seem to be the self-declared judges. Go figure.
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    Dec 16, 2008 7:37 PM GMT
    flex89 saidWhat's your insulin sensitivity? Mine's been as low as 5g / iu, it's currently 9g / iu. One iu to me is frequently 2 iu to anyone else LOL!

    For all the dumb teens with diabetes I've known, I'd think they'd all be dead by now if insulin were so dangerous.


    damn! That is pretty crazy sensitivity. Mine is 15g/iu.

    Diabetics I think have less of a chance overdosing. We have blood glucose meters and some education on the mater. Other people though who do not have such things could try to push themselves. An extra set at the gym and extra unit at home.

    And the scenario you mentioned. You take some insulin, and go to sleep for eight hours. Waking up might be a problem. If you live alone this could be a real deadly situation.
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    Dec 16, 2008 7:40 PM GMT
    Exactly, that's why I live with chuckystud3 LOL!

    I mistyped the sensitivities on my last post, it's 20g / iu and currently 11g / iu (keeping those ratios straight makes my head hurt!)

    I normally won't recommend insulin to someone who doesn't get the deal with the weightlifting (i.e. skinny guys). RyanW's clearly uneducated in this matter and has probably been reading some bad websites because I'm seeing things like "cycles" and "creatine makes for zits" and needs a little straightening out.

    As a supplement, insulin is best taken SUPERVISED. If you fall asleep with excess insulin in your system, you put yourself in a situation where your risk of a seizure hits the ceiling. Proper use of insulin as a supplement is relatively easy, and you learn how to handle hypoglycemia first-hand and quickly. Most guys even choose not to continue because they know what the risks are at that point, and those who continue get better at it and are able to leverage insulin's anabolic properties to great length.

    Creatine just makes for glycogen uptake (carbing up) and draws a great deal of water up into your tissues, but insulin just does it a lot better and without all the bloat.

    If anyone's still wondering here creatine comes from, it's a naturally occurring chemical found in most meats with the highest concentrations being found in pork. Normal intake for creatine is roughly 4g daily, but may be supplemented without any health-threatening side effects. No lethal dose is currently known, as most people find the diarrhea too annoying to want to go any higher than about 10g a day.
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    Dec 16, 2008 7:40 PM GMT
    We've upped Logan's insulin sensitivity through weight training, and HIIT.

    Logan's HBA1C has flying colors.

    It's always annoying when folks who think they know everything speak on behalf of those who really do.

    We take Logan's glucose meter to the gym.

    I have my blood work on the wall.

    The naysayers can say what they want, but, good science does not lie.

    Certainly, like aspirin, smoking, over-eating, or anything where to much can be bad, insulin use needs to be studied before being undertaken.
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    Dec 16, 2008 9:50 PM GMT
    Chucky, there is no need to be snotty when I am merely saying that there are dangers and people need to be aware of this.
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    Dec 16, 2008 9:53 PM GMT
    Not being snotty. Honest. Just pointing out fact of what studies have shown time and again. Guys with muscles typically are above average IQ, more well read, more health conscious, make more money, and live longer than those who don't. Clearly, 33 years of experience in the trenches buys a bit of credence, as well.

    My degree is in computer science, and I'm schooled in logical thinking. Sometimes,...that comes across as snotty to some folks who have different sensibilities / are less used to directness.

    If I was being "snotty", you would know, but, normally, I don't descend to that kind of dialog.

    I always giggle at some fat person who smokes trying to tall me what's best for me. I sure wouldn't regard that as snotty.
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    Dec 16, 2008 9:55 PM GMT
    Oh, I have seen you full tilt. Hell hath no fury like Chucky unleashed. icon_biggrin.gif