Testosterone cypionate vs ethanate - what is better?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 7:44 PM GMT
    I am trying to figure out what would be better to take (if there is a difference) for long term use - Testosterone cypionate vs ethanate?

    I have been prescribed both in the past and feel cypionate works better - but for long term use I was wondering what dose is most effective?

    If you have any information/links/websites that can help me I would appreciate it. I am trying to get back into shape...and my low Testosterone levels (280) are making my workouts more difficult due to the excessive fatigue at times (10-12 + hours of sleep) and slow recovery times after intense workouts.
    Currently I am doing the Rock Hard Challenge (Month 1) with my workout buddy -
    http://www.gyminee.com/workout_programs/27680-Rock-Hard-Challenge-Month-1-Muscle-and-Fitness-2008-

    For a month - I have been taking .5 cc a week of ethanate as prescribed by my doctor.
    Last week - I went back to the doc for an additional round of blood work the day before my next shot so I can get a better idea if the low dose I am taking is enough. But to be honest I don't know what the ideal optimum levels are for an athlete with HIV. Since the virus itself depletes testosterone.
    And I still don't feel that much better then before I started taking the shots. My experiences in the past when my levels were even lower (lowest was around 75 a few years back) were different - I usually was more energetic and I called it my happy shot because it got me out of my depression due to my low testosterone levels.

    I am hoping some outside advise might help me along.
    And please realize I am being prescribed this medication by a doctor due to already low levels - I am not trying to bulk up. I rather just regain the normal levels of someone my age so I can workout and have a healthy, active life.
    Thanks!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 8:30 PM GMT
    I'm not sure one is better than the other...

    From what I remember, Cypionate is a combo of a bunch of other tests, and it takes longer for your body to break it down because of its longer esther chains, thus allowing it to have a smoother, slow-release effect.

    They're both Testosterone. They'll both do the same thing. I think it's just a matter of if you want to inject one large dose once a week (cyp) or a smaller dose dose twice a week (eth).

    Right? Am I remembering this right?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 8:35 PM GMT
    rezdylan saidI'm not sure one is better than the other...

    From what I remember, Cypionate is a combo of a bunch of other tests, and it takes longer for your body to break it down because of its longer esther chains, thus allowing it to have a smoother, slow-release effect.

    They're both Testosterone. They'll both do the same thing. I think it's just a matter of if you want to inject one large dose once a week (cyp) or a smaller dose dose twice a week (eth).

    Right? Am I remembering this right?

    Actually I can take either once every other week 1cc or once a week .5cc
    Just thought once a week would be more effective and less ups and downs.
    Cypionate perhaps will work best for me because its a slow-release.

    I will ask the doctor if I can get that instead....but I am going to wait and see what the results say this week about my levels.
    I am very TIRED of feeling so off this year...I am beginning to finally see some results from my workouts this past week but I have never had such difficulty losing or getting more toned in my life before...I also asked my doc last week to check my thyroid just in case.

    Thanks for the info
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 8:43 PM GMT
    There is actually very little difference between the two esters. Some people may have an allergy or sensitivity to one of the two, and that is probably the biggest reason for the difference. Some people will claim there is more water retention with one or the other, but there is little evidence to support this. A lot of it comes down to doctor and patient preference. I think the most difficult part of all this is to find a doctor who is very, very current on endocrinology and hormone replacement therapy. I find most to be painfully behind the times when it comes to this. So many doctors seem quite satisfied to get the T levels back above 400 to 500. I've seen tremendous differences in the people that are replaced to levels of 800 to 1000 versus those replaced to a level of 400 to 600. Although I'm not an expert in HRT for HIV positive men, I can tell you that higher Testosterone levels are correlated with an overall lower all cause mortality rating. Simply put the greater the levels of testosterone the lower your risk of dying from any particular cause.

    By the way, there may be cheaper and equally effective alternatives to the injections. Standard cash price for injectable testosterone is around 110 bucks for the 10ml vial. You can get a testosterone cream, like testosterone in vanicreme for around 20/month. Aside from the price differences, the cream is simply rubbed into the skin twice a day and no shots, no needles, etc. Some people do much better with the cremes and gels as they are able to maintain much more stable testosterone level then you are able to achieve with testosterone injections. Just something to think about.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 8:44 PM GMT
    My doc and I had this discussion about three weeks ago. He told me that without a bunch of grief from those who want to judge, about 2cc of test cyp (400mg) a week is the most he can do. Since my script is already at a compounded 1400mg topical a WEEK(test base in EMU cream), I asked him, which is more effective. His response was that the EMU was absorbed at roughly .50 (i.e. 50%) so the topical was less expensive, but delivered more (700mg a WEEK), vs the 400mg weekly via injection. I have my script compounded and it's $45.00 a month. Things like Androgel are not potent enough, and are still in patent (about $300.00 a month). I'd sure talk to your doctor about getting a compounded topical at a level that's more comparable to someone who trains with weights and who is approaching middle age.

    For a while, I was off my script. My bp starts creeping up and I was starting to feel crappy and getting fatter, etc. As soon as I got back on, my bp dropped within just a few days, and my body composition started improving. My cholesterol is holding between 130 and 140, with my bp around 130/72, PSA at around .4, and my T3/T4 was just on the upper end of the normal range at 374 (competive bbs will bring it to 600 or better sometimes). As usual, my sodium runs lows, and my RBCs run almost out of range. I'm one of those folks who doesn't normally have issues of water retention / high sodium.

    I hear all the pure crap about juice, but, I know better in my 33 years of being in gyms, being studied numerous times, and looking at my own blood work.

    Since getting on the test script, I'm off the meds for bp, which another doctor felt I should have.

    An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and anyone over 28 should be watching their testosterone levels to insure improved health.

    Even at very high levels, the benefits of testosterone are numerous.

    I'd encourage you (being mindful I'm not a doctor) to keep your levels up around 1200. The difference is amazing, across the board, and numerous studies have shown that even at off-the-chart supplementation levels AAS users / testosterone users, still have much better mortality than the lay public. Those are facts.

    Note: I misstated my dose as daily instead of a WEEK. Earlier. I fixed it. At 700mg a day...well, I reckon I'd look like one of our puffy members here. LOL. 1400mg a week, guys, 200mg a day, 100 in the morn, 100 in the night, with 50% absorption, means I get about 700mg a week topically. Sorry, mis-stated it.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 8:49 PM GMT
    YngHungSFSD saidBy the way, there may be cheaper and equally effective alternatives to the injections. Standard cash price for injectable testosterone is around 110 bucks for the 10ml vial. You can get a testosterone cream, like testosterone in vanicreme for around 20/month. Aside from the price differences, the cream is simply rubbed into the skin twice a day and no shots, no needles, etc. Some people do much better with the cremes and gels as they are able to maintain much more stable testosterone level then you are able to achieve with testosterone injections. Just something to think about.


    I tried gels before and they did little for me....the injections seem the best for me to get where I need to be....thanks for all the info.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 8:53 PM GMT
    chuckystud3 saidMy doc and I had this discussion about three weeks ago. He told me that without a bunch of grief from those who want to judge, about 2cc of test cyp a week is the most he can do. Since my script is already at a compounded 1400mg topical a day (test base in EMU cream), I asked him, which is more effective. His response was that the EMU was absorbed at roughly .50 (i.e. 50%) so the topical was less expensive, but delivered more (700mg a day), vs the 400mg weekly via injection. I have my script compounded and it's $45.00 a month. Things like Androgel are not potent enough, and are still in patent (about $300.00 a month). I'd sure talk to your doctor about getting a compounded topical at a level that's more comparable to someone who trains with weights and who is approaching middle age.


    I have only tried androgel and I think YngHungSFSD as you, Topical Cream - so I will ask my doctor this week about this topical cream - do you know the name of it? So I can be specific ...i would like to look it up and read up too.
    Thanks for the info!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 8:55 PM GMT
    rezdylan saidI'm not sure one is better than the other...

    From what I remember, Cypionate is a combo of a bunch of other tests, and it takes longer for your body to break it down because of its longer esther chains, thus allowing it to have a smoother, slow-release effect.

    They're both Testosterone. They'll both do the same thing. I think it's just a matter of if you want to inject one large dose once a week (cyp) or a smaller dose dose twice a week (eth).

    Right? Am I remembering this right?


    Sustanon is the combination of other testosterone esters. It's not real commonly used for HRT in the US. Cypionate and enanthateis are single ester's and long-acting form of the base steroid testosterone. They have a very similar half life and overall there is very little difference between the two.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 9:05 PM GMT
    YngHungSFSD said
    rezdylan saidI'm not sure one is better than the other...

    From what I remember, Cypionate is a combo of a bunch of other tests, and it takes longer for your body to break it down because of its longer esther chains, thus allowing it to have a smoother, slow-release effect.

    They're both Testosterone. They'll both do the same thing. I think it's just a matter of if you want to inject one large dose once a week (cyp) or a smaller dose dose twice a week (eth).

    Right? Am I remembering this right?


    Sustanon is the combination of other testosterone esters. It's not real commonly used for HRT in the US. Cypionate and enanthateis are single ester's and long-acting form of the base steroid testosterone. They have a very similar half life and overall there is very little difference between the two.



    Ah. Thanks for clearing that up.

    So then, what IS the difference between Cyp and Enth?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 9:07 PM GMT
    Beefy_Artist said
    chuckystud3 saidMy doc and I had this discussion about three weeks ago. He told me that without a bunch of grief from those who want to judge, about 2cc of test cyp a week is the most he can do. Since my script is already at a compounded 1400mg topical a day (test base in EMU cream), I asked him, which is more effective. His response was that the EMU was absorbed at roughly .50 (i.e. 50%) so the topical was less expensive, but delivered more (700mg a day), vs the 400mg weekly via injection. I have my script compounded and it's $45.00 a month. Things like Androgel are not potent enough, and are still in patent (about $300.00 a month). I'd sure talk to your doctor about getting a compounded topical at a level that's more comparable to someone who trains with weights and who is approaching middle age.


    I have only tried androgel and I think YngHungSFSD - suggested the same thing...so I will ask my doctor this week about this topical cream - do you know the name of it? So I can be specific ...i would like to look it up and read up too.
    Thanks for the info!


    It's simply testosterone compounded in a base. The one that I see most common is Testosterone in Vanicreme, although it's also used with pet cream, or as the poster above said emu cream. As far as the ester that's used in the compounded cremes it's called Testosterone Propionate. It's usually compounded as a 2% cream. "Compounded" means that it is specially prepared by a pharmacist at the direction of a physician, not a packaged pharmaceutical product. The propionate has a much faster half life so it's typically applied twice a day and is rapidly absorbed into the system.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 9:21 PM GMT
    i can't notice a difference body-wise on either, or how i feel. but the enthanate hurts like shit at the injection site, the cyp doesn't or maybe it's just me...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 9:22 PM GMT
    Thanks for the info YngHungSFSD!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 9:25 PM GMT
    "Testim cream" was one of the testosterone creams advertised at chuck's doctor's office, but what chuck does is take a prescription for a compounded 1400 mg of testosterone to the pharmacist and they whip it up themselves on the cheap; hence, "compounded". He usually has to wait overnight before they have it ready.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 9:26 PM GMT
    flex89 said"Testim cream" was one of the testosterone creams advertised at chuck's doctor's office, but what chuck does is take a prescription for a compounded 1400 mg of testosterone to the pharmacist and they whip it up themselves on the cheap; hence, "compounded". He usually has to wait overnight before they have it ready.


    thanks for that info too...much obliged!
    Anas
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 16, 2008 9:38 PM GMT
    I don't know if there is test prop in mine, but, it says "testosterone base 10% in EMU, Apply twice daily, 1CC".

    200mg daily is how it works out, with 50% absorption with a total of 700mg a week absorbed.

    I think it's neat how Google's "Ad Sense" puts the perfect ads into this topic. Amazing.

    I took time to google on this for the poster:

    http://www.trainwiser.com/f88/testosterone-ester-profiles-5965/
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Dec 17, 2008 1:38 PM GMT
    Thanks to everyone's suggestions especially about the topical creams!
    Just got my results from the bloodwork back today...seems like the .5 cc is all I will be able to get at the moment...my levels are now at 615 which is considered normal. I prefer to raise them up more as suggested here on this forum. So I hope maybe the cream will work more efficiently to get that working.

    Thanks again!
    Happy Holidays!